[Archived] Will the purists learn from this?

[otto man]

Lets then Beerwins.

Can Swansea maintain results throughout a season playing like they do? Will they be found out?Last season we heard a lot of praise for Blackpool's style, which seemed to be largely based on Charlie Adam knocking long diagonal balls. By March time they had been neutralised,

Can Barca? Can The Scum? How about Real or Juve? Flawed argument Matty and that horse won't run.

[jim mk2]

The truth is - for Rovers to increase its fan base - it couldn't remain with the media image it had under Sam. Personally I think some of the bad press Sam got was unwarranted - but I did get increasingly frustrated at how predictable we became.

And still they don't get it.........

Rovers had a very good media image under Sam and was in fact far worse under Hughes - remember the headlines after the cup-semi-final with Arsenal ? And Sam did not get a bad press - the press generally liked him because he is open and accessible and always has something interesting to say. His teams were recognised for what they were - pragmatic, tough, effective, respected and hard to beat. In fact, all the attributes we have lost over the past 12 months.

As has been stated, the only bad "press" Sam received was on messageboard such as this from the playstation generation who think football is about entertainment, and teams on limited budgets like Rovers can play like Arsenal and Barcelona.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Do the supporters who campaigned for Sam not to be hired, then constantly expressed their discontent when he was manager, not deserve at least a small portion of the blame for our current plight? If you're battling to persuade someone to do something, then they do it, and everything turns to ****, are you not slightly to blame? Or did the purists never expect or want to be listened to but just figured they'd constantly complain about Allardyce anyway?

As for any "I told you so" sentiment in the initial post, believe me I was trying to reign it in. Given the consistently wrong approach, supported by many Rovers fans, that has taken us to this point, I'd love "IS THIS BETTER THAN HOOFBALL?" to be strung up in christmas lights all over Blackburn as we get relegated this christmas. 1 single, solitary post hinting at the sentiment is getting off very lightly.

As for my apparent obsession with seeing things in black and white, well if you can't see the blatant underlying link that has dictated our successes and failures over the past 3 and a half years then I give up. Manager good at getting results = good, manager good at playing good football = useless. Name me one club with Rovers' resources (thats Blackpool/Burnley/Swansea equivalent, not Wolves/Fulham/Bolton etc) who have managed sustained success in the PL playing good football? Because I could name you 20 that haven't. Hughes was a total fluke that had an absolutely minute chance of being repeated.

Anyway, I am going over old ground now. My initial question, which was a cross between a morbid fascination and a desperate hope, is if we got another "hoofball" manager in to replace Kean, would we yet again hear the same whinging we had to endure under Allardyce? Because if we don't that might be one shred of comfort to take for the realistic, pragmatic Rovers fans who've been fighting a losing battle against good football-obsessed idiocy for the last 3 and a half years.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I can still hear the pathetic,brainless booing from the stands,as at 3-1 up,we dominated Wolves at home under Allardyce.

What would we give for some of that scoreline now eh boo boys?...you dont know what you've had until you've lost it!

[jim mk2]

I can still here the pathetic booing from the stands,as at 3-1,we dominated Wolves at home under Allardyce.

Says everything about the average IQ of the inhabitants of the Blackburn End.

[beerwins]

And still they don't get it.........

Rovers had a very good media image under Sam and was in fact far worse under Hughes - remember the headlines after the cup-semi-final with Arsenal ? And Sam did not get a bad press - the press generally liked him because he is open and accessible and always has something interesting to say. His teams were recognised for what they were - pragmatic, tough, effective, respected and hard to beat. In fact, all the attributes we have lost over the past 12 months.

As has been stated, the only bad "press" Sam received was on messageboard such as this from the playstation generation who think football is about entertainment, and teams on limited budgets like Rovers can play like Arsenal and Barcelona.

This is why discussions like this never work on here because it's always Rovers or Barcelona or Arsenal. There are 20 teams in the Prem league and not all play like Barcelona or long ball.

What about Everton, they are a good team that know how to mix it up and dont have massive budgets, they spend a bit more than us but they always do very well, how do they manage that then?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Says everything about the average IQ of the inhabitants of the Blackburn End.

Not all of us Jimbo!

[den]

Though I do agree with you to an extent - I do think you have to throw in pricing and football style into the mix when you are never going to be more than a mid-table team (as is the case for most teams in the Premiership).

Football style has never influenced attendances as far as I'm aware. Do you have evidence of this? As long as I've been watching football, when results improve [over a period of time] attendances follow. When results fail, attendances drop. Ticket pricing plays a part in the big scheme of things obviously, but if you're trying to say that Sam's football had, or was going to drive fans away, then there is no evidence at all that this was the case.

How were Bolton's attendances reflected under Allardyce - did they fluctuate with results, or did they just fall year on year under Sam's reign?

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

This is why discussions like this never work on here because it's always Rovers or Barcelona or Arsenal. There are 20 teams in the Prem league and not all play like Barcelona or long ball.

What about Everton, they are a good team that know how to mix it up and dont have massive budgets, they spend a bit more than us but they always do very well, how do they manage that then?

Very true - always black or white - right or wrong - no room for the middle ground it would appear.

[jim mk2]

What about Everton, they are a good team that know how to mix it up and dont have massive budgets, they spend a bit more than us but they always do very well, how do they manage that then?

They have a very good manager. Sam's teams mixed it up as well, especially when we were in the lead and the game was effectively won.

[beerwins]

Football style has never influenced attendances as far as I'm aware. Do you have evidence of this? As long as I've been watching football, when results improve [over a period of time] attendances follow. When results fail, attendances drop. Ticket pricing plays a part in the big scheme of things obviously, but if you're trying to say that Sam's football had, or was going to drive fans away, then there is no evidence at all that this was the case.

How were Bolton's attendances reflected under Allardyce - did they fluctuate with results, or did they just fall year on year under Sam's reign?

Ok I'm gonna do what I just said always happens in these threads If Barcelona had Sam as manager and they were still getting the results but the wins were coming from 1-0 wins from a set piece do you think their attendances would dwindle or do you think no-one would long for the tick tack free flowing football of the past?

There are more parts to attendances than just getting results, I would say 80% would be the team getting a result but there will always be people that will always want more.

[Rover_Shaun]

The 'playstation generation' I wondered when that' chestnut' would be churned out.

Any more cliches Jimbob (no not me before you say)

[Doug]

Give me Rovers who are feared by other clubs and fans, fortress Ewood, Wenger and Fergie moaning about dropping points to a 'rough' team, mid table security, producing quality youngsters at the accademy, buying cheap and selling well. A manager who can tackle the big headed footballers and handle the annoying press questions with a flippant reply and a smile. Living in Bolton, I used to listen to the Wanderer's fans wishing they still had Sam, and I rubbed their noses in it. He was Bolton's biggest asset and one of ours. What I would give for the management team and board of twelve months ago to be brought back.... I can dream can't I? Hoofbal schmoofball, results and respect is what matters!! COYB

[Stuart]

Dear Steve Kean's Hypnotoad,

What's it like up there, on your high horse, with your retro-spectoscope? Is the view good?

Quite ironic, I thought.

[den]

Ok I'm gonna do what I just said always happens in these threads If Barcelona had Sam as manager and they were still getting the results but the wins were coming from 1-0 wins from a set piece do you think their attendances would dwindle or do you think no-one would long for the tick tack free flowing football of the past?

If they were winning every week, that would mean they were top of the league, so their attendances would hold up.

I'll turn it round for you. If Barcelone were to play free flowing football every week, but were losing game after game, which way do you think their attendances would go?

[Elvis McSmithy]

the aim should always be to play football not hoofball, but you have to have a full squad capable of playing good football 1st, which takes years to build, in the meantime you have to find the right balance.

i think Sam allardyce and steve kean have took things to the extreme though, allardyce simply wouldn'nt allow any passing between players in the 1st 2t hirds of the pitch which is pathetic for a team in the premiere league, kean on the over hand well hes gone and 'tried' the extreme opposite which is just plane dumb(way beyond naive), we should be looking to find the middle ground, both mark hughes and graeme souness did it playing good football but they played with much more passion and aggression and they where both more successfull than allardyce(hughes did it on a similar budget to allardyce also!).

[den]

BTW, it's not possible to continually win games without playing well. If that were the case then any old pub side could survive in the PL. To win games you have to defend well and create more chances than the opposition.

If you're winning games, then you're playing well - which kind of makes a mockery of the "Allardyce's sides only ever hoof it from the back" posts.

[beerwins]

I would just like to state before I get painted with the anti Sam brush that I was'nt against Sam, I think he did a great job with what he had to work with, I was actualy looking forward to seeing what he could have done with the team if he had got the likes of Nzogbia and Crouch in the window before he was unjustly sacked.

I am simply stating the fact that it really does'nt have to be only long ball or pretty football there are alternatives, Bolton, West Brom, Wolves, Everton, Sawnsea, Norwich, in fact every other team in the League has to find their own way of finding the blend of money spent, money incoming, Managerial skill, playstyle, there are so many differences to how every team is run it is unfair to say we must be one or the other.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Football style has never influenced attendances as far as I'm aware. Do you have evidence of this? As long as I've been watching football, when results improve [over a period of time] attendances follow. When results fail, attendances drop. Ticket pricing plays a part in the big scheme of things obviously, but if you're trying to say that Sam's football had, or was going to drive fans away, then there is no evidence at all that this was the case.

You are trying to make it into another black or white argument - which it isn't.

A long period of improving results leads to increased levels of performance and confidence by the players - and correspondingly better performances - so it can be difficult to separate the two.

Similarly - a relegation battle will impact levels of performance from players - but can actually increase attendances more than a mid-table end to the season with nothing to play for.

In this case I was looking at our situation (prior to Kean) - at best a mid-table team, chances of an extended run of increased results leading to towards top of table - virtually nil. All I was saying was that with this inertia - our best chance of increasing attendances was by improving the playing style.

You obviously like to polarise debates - I am not/was not anti-Sam or pro-Sam - I actually defended him on this MB many times. I still think that the type football we were playing under him would have eventually eroded our fans base - if it wasn't the case - why did they have to reduce prices after a period of improved results after Sam taking over ?

[den]

I would just like to state before I get painted with the anti Sam brush that I was'nt against Sam, I think he did a great job with what he had to work with, I was actualy looking forward to seeing what he could have done with the team if he had got the likes of Nzogbia and Crouch in the window before he was unjustly sacked.

I am simply stating the fact that it really does'nt have to be only long ball or pretty football there are alternatives, Bolton, West Brom, Wolves, Everton, Sawnsea, Norwich, in fact every other team in the League has to find their own way of finding the blend of money spent, money incoming, Managerial skill, playstyle, there are so many differences to how every team is run it is unfair to say we must be one or the other.

I agree with you 100% Beerwins.

and in reply to Elvis above who says "the aim should always be to play football" - no it shouldn't. The aim has to be to beat the opposition. If you've done that, you've done the job.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

If Barcelona had Sam as manager

Mmmm..... Lets be honest,Kean does make Sam look like Pep guardiola in comparison!

[beerwins]

Mmmm..... Lets be honest,Kean does make Sam Ince look like Pep guardiola in comparison!

Just a slight change

[jim mk2]

In this case I was looking at our situation (prior to Kean) - at best a mid-table team, chances of an extended run of increased results leading to towards top of table - virtually nil.

Sam was involved in a firefighting exercise in his first season to save the club from relegation; in the second season we finished 10th and reached a cup semi-final and in the first half of the third season he was sacked with Rovers within reach of the top six.

We were improving all the time under him and given an extended period in charge there is every chance he would taken the club farther. The man was never given the chance to finish his work at Ewood.

[den]

You obviously like to polarise debates - I am not/was not anti-Sam or pro-Sam - I actually defended him on this MB many times. I still think that the type football we were playing under him would have eventually eroded our fans base - if it wasn't the case - why did they have to reduce prices after a period of improved results after Sam taking over ?

Goodness. They didn't have to reduce ticket prices because of Sam's type of football. John Williams has for years been trying all sorts of ticketting deals in order to get more fans into the ground. He was offering cheap ticket deals as part of the taking back Ewood campaign when Sam took charge. Not though because of Sam's "style of football", but because we were in real danger of relegation at that point.

I noticed that you cut out my question about Bolton's attendances under Allardyce. Did they drop because of him and his football?

[Rovermatt]

I know this topic induces much heated debate but I simply cannot agree with the premise that it is Allardyce's way or the high way as far as this club is concerned. Suggesting that we must only play bad football in order to survive is ridiculous. As far as I am concerned the football under Allardyce had become nigh-on unwatchable. We couldn't pass or create chances and as such the effectiveness of the tactics was increasingly on the wane.

The club erred in appointing Ince, that much is obvious but he was clearly a gamble and absolutely not the alternative to Allardyce. The powers that be did well to get Sam second time around and he pulled us from the Ince-induced mire.

The implication that the rubbish being churned out by Kean's team is somehow the converse of your average Sam Allardyce product is erroneous. It's just as bad to watch and even less effective. The desire by Venky's to play good football is essentially a noble one. Unfortunately they know nothing about the game, appointed an utter fool to implement their vague vision and failed to invest in the talent required to play at a level above the stuff that Sam was turning out at the end.