[Archived] Will the purists learn from this?

[Mattyblue]

I must admit I am enjoying the fact that your whole argument is based on the reason given for Sam's sacking being that they (The Chicken Overlords) wanted a better brand of football to please the fans.

So given all that's been said by them and promised since the day they darkened our doorstep why do you actually believe that on that occasion they were telling the truth? You see all I've seen & heard in the last 12 months from our club are ###### and bullshit's, so consequently I am not convinced they really sacked Sam for those reasons.

Indeed, what the bloody hell do Venky's know about 'good football'?

The whole thing was without doubt orchestrated from the day the Trust and then Venky's got SEM/Kentaro involved.

[Paul]

Ever since Hughes left I've noticed a rather large, frankly irritating section of our support who seem to have prioritised the desire to play good football above practically everything else when it comes to our managerial appointments.

First there was the internet campaign against Allardyce being the immediate successor to Hughes in summer 2008. This arguably contributed to JW's decision to appoint a far less experienced, lower quality manager in Ince who pushed us closer to relegation than we've been at any point since the 90s.

So the board appointed Allardyce who then pulled us out of it and the purists shut up for 5 months. However from the start of the 09/10 season onwards there was a simmering resentment which was regularly expressed on the terraces with chants for different formations and booing of certain substitutions. Again this arguably contributed to Venkys sacking Allardyce and bringing to an abrupt end 18 months of improvement and relative success.

Then we had Kean, a woeful replacement by anyones standards but a guy who has received an inexplicable lack of vocal criticism from most at Ewood up until the last couple of games. The reason cited by many of his sympathisers for this was that "we were playing well", I assume this means we were passing it about/playing good football. And now we're in a position it will be extremely, extremely difficult to save ourselves from.

It's unusual for me to give a negative vote to a post, prefering only to comment on those I agree with but I find the whole tone of this post rather condescending and quite unnecessary. A question for you - did you ever boo Andrews?

First I whole-heartedly agree with those who believe winning is the most important aspect, clearly any team that fails to win on a regular basis is going to be relegated. However it should not be the only aim in a football team. We watch the game, in part, to be,"entertained" (I use the word loosely because football is not all about entertainment despite what the pundits would have us believe) and I don't see much point in going if every match is boring and unexciting to watch.

I enjoyed our football under Hughes for several reasons; we could play attractive football when the circumstances allowed, standing up to the likes of Arsenal or United was a given, we had exciting game changing players, Hughes himself was an intelligent man with an attractive personality, he helped me feel proud of our club. I went to Ewood with a spring in my step and looking forward to a match. Souness was similar.

Paul Ince as a player was a thoroughly unpleasant individual who I never liked. Yes, he was good but his off-field actions spoke much louder than words making him an unpopular choice with me. Had he been a success and produced good winning football my view would not have changed. I didn't feel he represented the club well. I did though reach a point when I began to defend him as the personal attacks on Ince were far from acceptable, in the same way the call to sack Kean for DD was unacceptable - it simply is not a sacking offence.

Similarily I was never an Allardyce fan though I appreciate what he achieved. I find him another individual who did not present the right image of our club. His football was very pragmatic, I fully agree the first priority is not to lose, not to concede goals, but having achieved that there is a need to be more creative. Once PL status was secured I think he should have been a little more adventurous. Generally in his second season I increasingly found the football boring and tedious to watch and felt only a little pleasure in watching. Agreed Allardyce was achieving at Ewood and had more money been available he may well have developed us into a better team BUT his one major financial signing, Kalanic, was a disaster. It was probably a last minute, desperation signing though.

So prioritising good football over results has led to the purists being totally wrong 3 times, has perhaps contributed to our board/owners making 3 shocking decisions, and is now about to relegate us. My question is that if Kean is replaced with a total pragmatist with little concern for playing good football, will the purists start on about it once again? Or has anything been learnt about the far greater importance of results and the difficulties in a club Rovers size managing to do both?

I want to feel proud of the football we play, have a manager who represents my club in the manner it deserves and with whom I can feel some affinity. If this makes me one of the "purists" you deride and hold responsible for our relegation then I'm happy to be a purist, though I am not one. Lets be quite clear the people responsible for our relegation our the Rao family, their advisers and the incompetent management, on and off the field, in place at Ewood Park. It gives me no satisfaction to be one of the very, very few who predicted Venkys would be wrong for our club. I won't though be starting any smug, self-satisfied threads about it.

In no way am I, nor any other supporter, no matter what style of football they enjoy, responsible for our relegation this season. I find your assertion we are responsible disappointing to say the least. If there is something wrong in feeling proud of the image the club presents on the field I am a purist.......and make no apology for it nor for "irritating" you, it must be difficult to live with..

[Paul]

Hughes was a total fluke that had an absolutely minute chance of being repeated.

I've only just noticed this. Rubbishing one of the games widely acknowledged young managers with real talent puts your opinion in perspective. I've no doubt Sparky would consider himself a little more than a fluke?

[Stuart]

Indeed, what the bloody hell do Venky's know about 'good football'?

The whole thing was without doubt orchestrated from the day the Trust and then Venky's got SEM/Kentaro involved.

Agreed, on both counts.

The Walkers must have been absolutely desperate to get rid of the millstone around their neck, in my opinion.

[Andy]

Surrounding yourself with a proper training, support and scouting team does not constitute a fluke.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Paul:

No I never booed Andrews. I find the idea of fans ever booing a player whos trying their best disgusting and have personally never booed a Rovers player or the Rovers team in my life.

So are you proud of the club and the way we play now? I don't love Allardyce, but I was able to recognise that he was the lesser of 2 evils for a club with Rovers resources. Some fans inability to acknowledge that we do not have the money to buy, and are not a big enough club to attract, the quality of players needed to survive while playing good football in the premiership is a source of enormous irritation, yes. Mainly because the evidence is there every season, Blackpool tried it and went down, Burnley tried it and went down, West Brom frequently go down. People pointing to Fulham, Wigan or Bolton is totally invalid because like it or not these days those clubs are either bigger, better located, or have more money than us. We are now one of the smallest around and every season we should be thinking about what we need to do and who we need to get to avoid the drop. Maybe that doesnt class as entertainment, but if you wanna stay in the league then you have to lump it. Obviously most Rovers fans didnt wanna lump it and this is where its got us.

You're saying I shouldn't pin any blame on the fans. Can you guarantee Williams didn't hesitate at the animosity surrounding the prospect of appointing Allardyce in summer 2008 and decided it would be counter-productive to hire a manager who'd split the fanbase? Can you guarantee Venkys would have sacked Allardyce if he'd been appreciated and supported throughout our support? Can you guarantee they never witnessed or were told about vocal displeasure from the terraces, giving them the confidence to sack him? Fans have influence, if they choose to use that influence I also think they should take a measure of responsibility for the collosal mess that has ensued.

And wasn't saying Hughes' success was a fluke. I'm saying us appointing a manager with no premiership experience and him playing successful, half-decent football with one of the skintest clubs in the league was a fluke. Most of the anti-Sam fans used Hughes as an example of why we should get him out, because we could get another manager like that. My argument is no we couldn't, Hughes was the exception to the rule, you don't stay in the PL with no money and poorish players by playing good football. Hughes was a manager who signed three 20-goal a season strikers in successive seasons for about £3m each. As if we were ever gonna have a decent chance of replacing Allardyce with someone like that.

[Majiball]

Paul:

No I never booed Andrews. I find the idea of fans ever booing a player whos trying their best disgusting and have personally never booed a Rovers player or the Rovers team in my life.

So are you proud of the club and the way we play now? I don't love Allardyce, but I was able to recognise that he was the lesser of 2 evils for a club with Rovers resources. Some fans inability to acknowledge that we do not have the money to buy, and are not a big enough club to attract, the quality of players needed to survive while playing good football in the premiership is a source of enormous irritation, yes. Mainly because the evidence is there every season, Blackpool tried it and went down, Burnley tried it and went down, West Brom frequently go down. People pointing to Fulham, Wigan or Bolton is totally invalid because like it or not these days those clubs are either bigger, better located, or have more money than us. We are now one of the smallest around and every season we should be thinking about what we need to do and who we need to get to avoid the drop. Maybe that doesnt class as entertainment, but if you wanna stay in the league then you have to lump it. Obviously most Rovers fans didnt wanna lump it and this is where its got us.

You're saying I shouldn't pin any blame on the fans. Can you guarantee Williams didn't hesitate at the animosity surrounding the prospect of appointing Allardyce in summer 2008 and decided it would be counter-productive to hire a manager who'd split the fanbase? Can you guarantee Venkys would have sacked Allardyce if he'd been appreciated and supported throughout our support? Can you guarantee they never witnessed or were told about vocal displeasure from the terraces, giving them the confidence to sack him? Fans have influence, if they choose to use that influence I also think they should take a measure of responsibility for the collosal mess that has ensued.

And wasn't saying Hughes' success was a fluke. I'm saying us appointing a manager with no premiership experience and him playing successful, half-decent football with one of the skintest clubs in the league was a fluke. Most of the anti-Sam fans used Hughes as an example of why we should get him out, because we could get another manager like that. My argument is no we couldn't, Hughes was the exception to the rule, you don't stay in the PL with no money and poorish players by playing good football. Hughes was a manager who signed three 20-goal a season strikers in successive seasons for about £3m each. As if we were ever gonna have a decent chance of replacing Allardyce with someone like that.

You really want to blame fans don't you, so since you want to go down that route. I would then ask why there was a split in the fans for Venky's to take advantage of? That's right Sam's appointment as the split in the fanbase occurred at almost every club he had managed prior to ourselves. So I blame you and everyone else who supported Sam despite knowing that split would occur as once the fans are split only doom will follow.

So if you want to blame me for voicing my beliefs and values then you too can have some blame, based on your own statements.

Oh and will people stop comparing us to the likes of Bolton etc etc etc, we aren't a fricking yo-yo club we've been here for the best part of 20 years. We are established in this league and only 1 of 4 clubs to ever win the fricking thing and yet people still see us as a non-entity in this league. Just for those who actually think we're a small time club the all time premier league table:

My link

9th overall with 2 years out of the wilderness, Bolton 15th, 200+ games behind us or at least 5-6 seasons, Wigan 26th and so on.

We are an established, successful Elte premier league team who the likes of Bolton etc aspire to replicate.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You really want to blame fans don't you, so since you want to go down that route. I would then ask why there was a split in the fans for Venky's to take advantage of? That's right Sam's appointment as the split in the fanbase occurred at almost every club he had managed prior to ourselves. So I blame you and everyone else who supported Sam despite knowing that split would occur as once the fans are split only doom will follow.

So if you want to blame me for voicing my beliefs and values then you too can have some blame, based on your own statements.

Oh and will people stop comparing us to the likes of Bolton etc etc etc, we aren't a fricking yo-yo club we've been here for the best part of 20 years. We are established in this league and only 1 of 4 clubs to ever win the fricking thing and yet people still see us as a non-entity in this league. Just for those who actually think we're a small time club the all time premier league table:

My link

9th overall with 2 years out of the wilderness, Bolton 15th, 200+ games behind us or at least 5-6 seasons, Wigan 26th and so on.

We are an established, successful Elte premier league team who the likes of Bolton etc aspire to replicate.

I don't want to blame the fans no, I don't want to blame anyone because I don't want us to be in this situation. I just think its reasonable to point out that some of the fans who openly voiced their disapproval of our last successful manager, on the terraces or via social media, may have contributed to this. Because I bet its never even crossed their minds to link their constant whinging for 2 years to our current predicament, and I want it to. Sam's managed 2 clubs in the past, one very much like ourselves and one far bigger than ourselves and yet still full of delusional geordies, are you saying it was inevitable to expect some Rovers fans to behave like the latter?

How does our past record in the slightest help our ability to afford and attract future players? Bolton get slightly better attendances, but their fans pay a lot more for their tickets, so their gate income is probably almost double ours. They are based in a town about 1.5 times the size of Blackburn so they have a bigger fanbase for marketing/sponsorship purposes. And they're in a more favourable location being closer to Manchester. In everything that matters we are smaller than them. We've achieved more over the last 20 years because we had Jack Walkers money for 15 of them. That vanished around the time Hughes took over and its been time for our fans to get real ever since.

[BuckyRover]

If we had never hired Sam we wouldn't have ended up with Steve Kean.

The Sam fans have so much to answer for

[Paul]

Paul:

No I never booed Andrews. I find the idea of fans ever booing a player whos trying their best disgusting and have personally never booed a Rovers player or the Rovers team in my life.

Good, pleased to hear it.

So are you proud of the club and the way we play now? I don't love Allardyce, but I was able to recognise that he was the lesser of 2 evils for a club with Rovers resources.

Which is pretty much what I said and, no, I don't feel any pride in what Kean is doing.

Some fans inability to acknowledge that we do not have the money to buy, and are not a big enough club to attract, the quality of players needed to survive while playing good football in the premiership is a source of enormous irritation, yes. Mainly because the evidence is there every season, Blackpool tried it and went down, Burnley tried it and went down, West Brom frequently go down. People pointing to Fulham, Wigan or Bolton is totally invalid because like it or not these days those clubs are either bigger, better located, or have more money than us.

I agree a large proportion of the support have at entirely unrealistic expectations on transfers but that is a product of the PL and the money it promises. The clubs you say failed played too expansive a game, Hughes took both a pragmatic and creative approach.

We are now one of the smallest around and every season we should be thinking about what we need to do and who we need to get to avoid the drop. Maybe that doesnt class as entertainment, but if you wanna stay in the league then you have to lump it. Obviously most Rovers fans didnt wanna lump it and this is where its got us.

Staying in the league is a poor ambition and hardly a reason to compete. Another product of Sky money though.

You're saying I shouldn't pin any blame on the fans. Can you guarantee Williams didn't hesitate at the animosity surrounding the prospect of appointing Allardyce in summer 2008 and decided it would be counter-productive to hire a manager who'd split the fanbase? Can you guarantee Venkys would have sacked Allardyce if he'd been appreciated and supported throughout our support? Can you guarantee they never witnessed or were told about vocal displeasure from the terraces, giving them the confidence to sack him? Fans have influence, if they choose to use that influence I also think they should take a measure of responsibility for the collosal mess that has ensued.

Obviously not but neither can you guarantee the opposites. Ultimately management is employed to take the correct decisions regardless if the fans' view. Ince being a good example.

And wasn't saying Hughes' success was a fluke. I'm saying us appointing a manager with no premiership experience and him playing successful, half-decent football with one of the skintest clubs in the league was a fluke. Most of the anti-Sam fans used Hughes as an example of why we should get him out, because we could get another manager like that. My argument is no we couldn't, Hughes was the exception to the rule, you don't stay in the PL with no money and poorish players by playing good football. Hughes was a manager who signed three 20-goal a season strikers in successive seasons for about £3m each. As if we were ever gonna have a decent chance of replacing Allardyce with someone like that.

Pretty much what Kean said about forfeiting a game.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Pretty much what Kean said about forfeiting a game.

? Me saying the we had very little chance of getting another manager who could take one of the skintest clubs in the league to 3 top-half finishes whilst playing attractive football is the same as Kean saying a mixture of our first team and his new signings had no chance of beating a Championship club?

[Majiball]

I don't want to blame the fans no, I don't want to blame anyone because I don't want us to be in this situation. I just think its reasonable to point out that some of the fans who openly voiced their disapproval of our last successful manager, on the terraces or via social media, may have contributed to this. Because I bet its never even crossed their minds to link their constant whinging for 2 years to our current predicament, and I want it to. Sam's managed 2 clubs in the past, one very much like ourselves and one far bigger than ourselves and yet still full of delusional geordies, are you saying it was inevitable to expect some Rovers fans to behave like the latter?

How does our past record in the slightest help our ability to afford and attract future players? Bolton get slightly better attendances, but their fans pay a lot more for their tickets, so their gate income is probably almost double ours. They are based in a town about 1.5 times the size of Blackburn so they have a bigger fanbase for marketing/sponsorship purposes. And they're in a more favourable location being closer to Manchester. In everything that matters we are smaller than them. We've achieved more over the last 20 years because we had Jack Walkers money for 15 of them. That vanished around the time Hughes took over and its been time for our fans to get real ever since.

So you don't want to blame fans but it's reasonable to do so?

Why should I put my beliefs and values to one side for the greater good? You see you've been 'whinging' on about this since you signed on here, so all you've really been doing is exactly the thing that your bemoaning others for. So just as you say others should have 'shut up' for the greater good, I say you should practice what you preach especially since at this moment we (the fans) need to be united and yet you want to slag off fans and have a cock contest. No fan holds any responsibility for our current plight, as next I'll just repeat Bucky's word's, Sam hired him you supported Sam so you need to blame yourself as well. It's pointless and given it's been your main drumming tune since day one, I'm guessing your just looking to wind people up.

I never even came close to implying that our fans would inevitably turn into Geordies, just to highlight my point that sam's style of play (the topic of supposed discussion) always splits the fan base, Oh look another, PS Sam managed 6 clubs before us, your very knowledgeable about the man your defending so passionately.

I'm sure no club in the world ever mentions their past achievements when SELLING a club to a player, Liverpool most likely attract them by saying they haven't won the league in over 20 years. Every club on the planet uses their previous achievements in the game to define their status, so should we. For a football player commuting a 1 hour drive everyday is common place, so distance really isn't the issue you perceive it to be. I'm not convinced that any player asks to know what are gate receipts are and highly doubt it factors in when selling a club to a player. Do Bolton not owe over 100M to their chairman? So all our success is down to Jack's money and none of Bolton's is down to their chairman's? Before you start criticising our attendances and believing that is a key factor you might want to see how ours stack up against the rest of Europe, here's La Liga, those small time spainish clubs must have serious issues signing players. And Rovers have always been known as good wage payers even for England and English wages put Spain etc in the shade, even ours. The other thing you might want to consider is that Bolton don't try and sign every player we do, it's not about how we stand in relation to them (they are inferior) it's about selling our club IE promoting our positives, not comparing it to a club that's won nothing since 1996.

I'm quite shocked you don't think Rovers fans are realistic as prior to the Venky's nightmare, was that not one thing we were renowned for? No-one on here expected Europe every season or demanded to challenge for the league and most were always realistic in their transfer demands. We knew the situation and were happy to compete, which we did, no fans were unrealistic prior to Venky's, I find it bizarre you think otherwise. Sam himself even showed he could 'mix it up' as fans wanted for a pro-longed period, so even asking for that, which was what people were doing wasn't unrealistic as Sam PROVED he could do it.

[Rover_Shaun]

Cardif wasn't the first match we have forfeited. Remember Old Trafford last season?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

as next I'll just repeat Bucky's word's, Sam hired him you supported Sam so you need to blame yourself as well.

Thats one of the dumbest things I'd ever heard. It was obviously just a wind-up attempt when Bucky said it so you using it as part of a serious argument is totally laughable.

As for the rest of your post, well we've clearly reached a dead end when you're getting personal and having a hissy fit. I'll just admit you're right, it was a great decision to get rid of Sam, well done all the fans who wanted it to happen and I agree wasn't it a HUGE shock when we didn't get a manager as good as him! Not that it matters, I'd rather be in my mid-50s the next time I see Rovers in the top flight just as long as I'm entertained with some good championship football.

[BuckyRover]

It's a dumb comment in isolation.

It's not dumb if you are trying to argue that those who didn't support Sam are a reason for our current predicament.

[Gav]

Sorry are you really holding up Ince and Kean as examples of people with competency to deliver good football?

I agree we haven't played good football consistently since Hughes left, but to try and blame other supporters for our demise is an absolute farce. The funniest part of all is that you don't touch on Hughes, he delivered decent football & results, clearly showing that if you appoint a COMPETENT manager it is achievable.

Ince was always going to fail, Sam was always going to split the fanbase and Kean will take us down. It's not rocket science and just shows yet another flaw in the footballing world as how on earth can a chairman really know the difference between a top manager/coach and a bad one.

Absolutely

I don't want to blame the fans no, I don't want to blame anyone because I don't want us to be in this situation. I just think its reasonable to point out that some of the fans who openly voiced their disapproval of our last successful manager, on the terraces or via social media, may have contributed to this.

What absolute bunkum.

[Majiball]

Thats one of the dumbest things I'd ever heard. It was obviously just a wind-up attempt when Bucky said it so you using it as part of a serious argument is totally laughable.

As for the rest of your post, well we've clearly reached a dead end when you're getting personal and having a hissy fit. I'll just admit you're right, it was a great decision to get rid of Sam, well done all the fans who wanted it to happen and I agree wasn't it a HUGE shock when we didn't get a manager as good as him! Not that it matters, I'd rather be in my mid-50s the next time I see Rovers in the top flight just as long as I'm entertained with some good championship football.

Glad to see you've started practicing what you preach.

Perhaps next time you want to start a debate you might consider not attacking the people you want answers from, it's not the best way to start a conversation.

[jim mk2]

I just think its reasonable to point out that some of the fans who openly voiced their disapproval of our last successful manager, on the terraces or via social media, may have contributed to this.

It's not just reasonable, it's absolutely correct - you used to hear the fools before, during and after matches chanting for Sam to be removed and I've no doubt the charlatans advising the owners presented this as justification for sacking him 12 months ago. Many of those fools of course inhabit this board. The problem now is getting to the owners to listen when we have a manager who deserves to be sacked.

[Rover_Shaun]

I can't recall hearing a single Sam Out shout. Hundreds of moans, groans and cricked necks but no chants

[Amo]

If Venky's had done this 12 months ago, this topic would be nonexistent.

[Stuart]

If Venky's had done this 12 months ago, this topic would be nonexistent.

And just think Toppers. He'll probably be watching from the stands tomorrow and in the dugout next Saturday after a week* planning how he'll beat Rovers.

It's been months in coming and he'll be fired up and raring to go, as will his players.

(* it won't take a week though)

[Mattyblue]

If Venky's had done this 12 months ago, this topic would be nonexistent.

But they didn't and never would have.

An O'Neill working under those lunatics?