[Archived] Venky's willing to sell?

[Devon Rover]

Great summary, Dan. And a reminder of the danger post-Venkys when the club is at its most vulnerable. That is why, for me, a consortium potentially consisting of the Ians, Wayne Wild etc plus backers will be the best realistic outcome here. Businessmen who are genuine fans coming in to sort out the mess and bring the community back together.

I've read Dan's proposal and think it is an excellent document. For me the costs are unrealistic for individuals but is an example of a possible brighter future once Venkys admit defeat and let us go.

[darrenrover]

Why does everyone say that? It is not that simple, and never was.

First off, the parachute payments don't come in a lump sum at the start of the season, they are paid out on the same schedule as the TV money is, which if I remember correctly is paid out in four spaced out intervals throughout the year.

Second, so long as the debt of the club is larger than the total of the first year's parachute payments (£16m total first year) there is no way Barclay's would ever allow that money out of the club, so Venkys would have to cook up a way to make it disappear somehow. Even in the event of a sale, as said, since the cash isn't a lump sum payment, anything that does come in will need to be used to pay for the day to day operating costs of the club, such as wages, maintenance, utilities, operating accounts payable, etc. etc.

It's not just a check written out to Mrs. Desai for £16m on August 1st.

I personally believe that Mrs. D has been in crisis mode trying to gain back some modicum of control over costs that were spun out of proportion during last year's January transfer window when we had an agent sleeping at the training ground extending contracts and signing players with strange appearance clauses, outrageous agent fees, and other such things that heightened the wage bill and other expenses far more than anticipated, and played a large part in creating the huge loss we sustained in 2011. I think that this agent had more the ear of the brothers, who up until the the summer, seemed to have free reign to make some decisions, but then when it was clear that the accounts were all of the sudden spiraling out of control compared to the original business plan, Mrs. D began a ruthless campaign to try to bring balance to the books again.

The problem was that the damage had already been done. In order to bring expenses back in line, she was required to rid the club of many of its best playing assets, or at least refuse to allow the ridiculous contract clauses to come into effect, resulting in effectively he same thing. She was required to reevaluate transfer policy in the face of bank pressure keeping an eagle eye on the club's activities, while at he same time doing her best to salvage the squad following a revised budget that included transfer trading at a net profit AND lowering the current and projected wage bill to pre January 2011 levels. NOT an easy task. I believe she has put a gag order out on her two idiot brothers, so they will not make things worse than they already are.

I feel that Mrs. D also has the added challenge of not knowing what the hell she is doing, with no knowledge of how the football business works, and what it requires. She sadly had already sanctioned the forcing out of all the people in the club that could have helped her, and in their absence has reverted to running the business with a structure that she knows has worked for her in her other subsidiaries, but which is incredibly lacking and useless given that she has equated the first team manager's position with a subsidiary-manager's position, especially considering who that manager is. She has from the start advocated using people who she already knows and who she sees as not having let her down in the past, even though these people may have absolutely mo experience in football either, such as their Brazilian employee who came over for absolutely no reason in this transfer window. (he maintained his 100% failure record, either naming players who were not signed, or in the case of Ribiero, successfully bringing to the club useless wage drainage with no hope of featuring in the Premier League)

In the face of all of this Mrs. D scorned the input of those who would only have tried to help her, including a base of very loyal supporters, sponsors, community leader, and political figures, and Mr. Kean, seeking to endear himself further and cement his newly found powerful and high paying position, backed her with very public statements echoing that same scorn for popular and public opinion that further alienated the club from its very own supporter base and the entire community it occupies.

I feel that all the lies we as supporters have been told by Venkys, Kean, and a player agency representative have been told have been a direct result of this rift in relationship, and not wanting to let anyone come in and say, "I told you so!" While not exactly sticking their heads in the sand, the ownership has put there head down and plowed ahead dead-set on taking their own council on how to go forward. In the process, they have destabilized the club, unsettled and alienated the senior playing staff for the most part, alienated the fans and the community at large beyond any hope of reconciliation, and devalued the club as an asset to the point that they may actually have to give it away if relegation comes calling.

This is very, very bad for us, because in these situations, even if the club does not go into administration, the likelyhood of a true asset stripping owner coming in like a circling vulture becomes a very real risk, and the possibility of the club ending up another Leeds, Portsmouth, Darlington, etc. increases dramatically.

I feel it is very unlikely that Venkys will own Rovers one way or another next season, especially if we get relegated. The question is, what kind of owner will we have? Will we just cross our fingers and hope that someone comes to our rescue? Will we plead to the gods to bring us a savior, Jack's second coming, or will we actually do something positive to take matters into our own hands, and try to save the club that we love?

[rovers11]

They ARE forming a business exit plan.

As a person who runs a multi million pound turnover company, I know people way out of their depth when I see them!

This company are, and will execute a textbook plan to leave this club with everything they can grab.

They have proved underhand in the past. A leopard rarely changes it's spots!!!!

Daddy can't help them now ?

I dont think they have been intentionally underhand in the past. They are completely out of their depth and have listened to the wrong people. They didnt intentionally come in to destroy the club. They were told it would be easy and relatively cheap. But, yes, they do look as though they are planning their exit. Its become too big a problem and I imagine shareholders in venkys arent happy.

Btw, for those that didnt listen to the podcast, this is a quote to hold on to: “If venkys do sell, we would be in a position to put a proposal together to buy rovers from our many business contacts some of whom have have experience at the highest level of football. There are too many moving parts to go into details now”.

[Bluefudge]

Im more than confident of life after Venkys.

We must bring the authorities to task with how we have been handled and basically left out to dry.

We all know this won't happen, nothing but nothing must tarnish their beloved brand!!

[Tugay-is-God]

Cracking post Dan, it's clear you're a very knowledgeable man and you're working hard putting forward ideas to help the club move into a brighter future. Keep it up!

[47er]

If I could be sure that it would see Venkys (and therefore Kean ) leave, I would actually prefer to see us relegated and start to build up again under a locally-led consortium. At least we could all get behind everyone at Ewood.

We will be in crisis mode permanently should Venkys carry on and the consequences will be worse than 1 simple relegation. Just mo of course.

My first preference would obviously be for us to stay up and for Venkys to leave but that doesn't seem likely.

[rovers11]

If I could be sure that it would see Venkys (and therefore Kean ) leave, I would actually prefer to see us relegated and start to build up again under a locally-led consortium. At least we could all get behind everyone at Ewood.

We will be in crisis mode permanently should Venkys carry on and the consequences will be worse than 1 simple relegation. Just mo of course.

My first preference would obviously be for us to stay up and for Venkys to leave but that doesn't seem likely.

I would absolutely take relegation and proper owners. We would bounce back quickly under a proper regime. Under Venky's it would be scary.

But nothing can happen until Venky's start talking.

[thenodrog]

I would take Ken Bates and Peter Risdale forming a 'dream team' over the Venkys let alone some passionate fans with the clubs best interest at heart.

I just want our club back and that won't happen until Venkys and Kean have gone.

LUFC fans want Bates out. I'd swap with our lot in a heartbeat.

[thenodrog]

Im more than confident of life after Venkys.

We must bring the authorities to task with how we have been handled and basically left out to dry.

We all know this won't happen, nothing but nothing must tarnish their beloved brand!!

No disrespect here but unless Messrs C&B have a tame billionaire waiting in the wings I can only see them having the clout and wherewithal to pick us up post armageddon and run us in the lower leagues. Fair do's though cos if nobody steps up to the oche we might easily be just a few pages in a history book.

Premier league football is a money pit, a seriously seriously rich mans plaything. We still have way too many 'supporters' who do not realise how lucky we were to have Jack Walker and the Walker Trust. Too many grew 'used to them'. Small town clubs cannot survive on normal business lines in the Premiership and will have to make do with second and third rate football for time immemorial..... or until I win the lottery at least 100 weeks on the run cos thats what it would take to challenge in the top 4/6 again.

[rovers11]

No disrespect here but unless Messrs C&B have a tame billionaire waiting in the wings I can only see them having the clout and wherewithal to pick us up post armageddon and run us in the lower leagues. Premier league football is a money pit, a rich mans plaything. We still have way too many 'supporters' who do not realise how lucky we were to have Jack Walker and the Walker Trust. Too many grew 'used to them'. Small town clubs cannot survive on normal business lines in the Premiership and will have to make do with second and third rate football for time immemorial..... or until I win the lottery at least 100 weeks on the run cos thats what it would take to challenge in the top 4/6 again.

I disagree. Most teams in the lower leagues are skint. So investing in the squad by keeping our best players and adding a few new ones we could easily come back up. Once you are in the prem league, the income is massive. A club of our size probably can't challenge for a top 8 position without a billionaire but with a competent manager, competent board and sensible investment each year (like Venkys promised) we can easily become an established prem side again. Big Sam got us in the top ten, Hughesy got us in the top ten and they didnt spend much. Both of those would have easily kept us up this season with our current squad. There's too much incompetence at managerial level at Rovers now for us to be a prem side.

[broadsword]

I dont think they have been intentionally underhand in the past. They are completely out of their depth and have listened to the wrong people. They didnt intentionally come in to destroy the club. They were told it would be easy and relatively cheap. But, yes, they do look as though they are planning their exit. Its become too big a problem and I imagine shareholders in venkys arent happy.

They've told lie after lie.

Just look at the takeover document, they've broken so many promises. They talk a good game but don't deliver as they don't want to put any money in.

They'd melt down Jack Walker's statue and turn it into a bath tub for fatty if they could.

[thenodrog]

I disagree. Most teams in the lower leagues are skint. So investing in the squad by keeping our best players and adding a few new ones we could easily come back up. Once you are in the prem league, the income is massive. A club of our size probably can't challenge for a top 8 position without a billionaire but with a competent manager, competent board and sensible investment each year (like Venkys promised) we can easily become an established prem side again. Big Sam got us in the top ten, Hughesy got us in the top ten and they didnt spend much. Both of those would have easily kept us up this season with our current squad. There's too much incompetence at managerial level at Rovers now for us to be a prem side.

1. We won't come back if we are relegated.

2. Show me a club in the Prem that is washing it's face and I'll give you two who aren't. The only clubs that can make a profit from the Prem are run by someone called Oyston.... and its only short term.

3. Keep up the thought processes though r11 cos you are well down the road to Lancashire Utd.

[booth]

LUFC fans want Bates out. I'd swap with our lot in a heartbeat.

A Leeds fans email was read out on Sky Sports on Wednesday. He said if Blackburn Rovers fans think they have it bad they would swap Bates for Venkys any day.

Just shows how little other fans understand the situation here.

[jim mk2]

I disagree. Most teams in the lower leagues are skint. So investing in the squad by keeping our best players and adding a few new ones we could easily come back up. Once you are in the prem league, the income is massive. A club of our size probably can't challenge for a top 8 position without a billionaire but with a competent manager, competent board and sensible investment each year (like Venkys promised) we can easily become an established prem side again. Big Sam got us in the top ten, Hughesy got us in the top ten and they didnt spend much. Both of those would have easily kept us up this season with our current squad. There's too much incompetence at managerial level at Rovers now for us to be a prem side.

Good post. Rovers were generally very well managed with one or two caveats for 10-15 years in the boardroom and on the pitch, and the tragedy it is that expertise that has been tossed away by the present owners. Rovers can get back into the PL but it will take board of similar calibre and a good manager to achieve it and people like that do not grow on trees. In our present state we are far more likely to go down again next season rather than come back up.

I was reading the Financial Times Weekend magazine last week (as you do) and there was a very illuminating article about football managers and those who do and do not add value. The conclusion was most managers are a waste of time but in the lower leagues there are one or two gems who constantly overachieve but are overlooked because they are not in the public eye. The best of them all is currently managing Southend United.

[LDRover]

Cue the long awaited return of rover6

[rovers11]

They've told lie after lie.

Just look at the takeover document, they've broken so many promises. They talk a good game but don't deliver as they don't want to put any money in.

They'd melt down Jack Walker's statue and turn it into a bath tub for fatty if they could.

Yeah, fair point. Difficult to argue with that.

[rovers11]

1. We won't come back if we are relegated.

2. Show me a club in the Prem that is washing it's face and I'll give you two who aren't. The only clubs that can make a profit from the Prem are run by someone called Oyston.... and its only short term.

3. Keep up the thought processes though r11 cos you are well down the road to Lancashire Utd.

I can see where you're coming from because at the moment things are in such a mess it is difficult to envisage a time where we can start believing again. Completely agree that under the current owners, board and manager there is no way we would come back. However, with a new regime we would come back at some point. The Championship is not a strong league. Pompey have lost all of their prem league squad and they are a mid table team, Birmingham lost most of their best players and they are in the play offs, Southampton were in league 1 last season and they are in the top 2, etc etc.

I don't think you can ever make a profit with a club like rovers. The fan base isn't big enough and we don't qualify for the champions lge year after year. Any new owners would have to realise that. That's why the new owners will have to be a rovers fan or have some affinity to the area. However, premier league money allows clubs to almost become self sustainable. We did it for years under the walkers trust. However, you need a very skilled board and manager to achieve that. If we had premier league money coming in and a modest cash injection of, say, 10m a year from the owners (as venkys promised) plus a competent manager and board then we'd be relatively successful.

[DaveyB]

A Leeds fans email was read out on Sky Sports on Wednesday. He said if Blackburn Rovers fans think they have it bad they would swap Bates for Venkys any day.

Just shows how little other fans understand the situation here.

Just out of interest, how much do you understand of what is going on at Leeds under Bates?

I don't claim to be an expert on it, I haven't taken that much notice of what has been going on, but a couple of snippets that I've picked up from living over here include:

1) highest ticket prices ever at Elland Rd, and they keep on going up season after season,

2) 64 loan players since 2004.

3) £25.5mil received for players, £2.5mil spent on players.

4) Sacking a manager 1 day after the transfer window closes, ensuring that any new manager won't be able to spend any money.

5) Whereas we kept hold of a player that made noises about wanting out, Leeds fans have watched players forced out of the club - players like Kasper Schmeichal who said, even after he'd been sold, that he never wanted to leave the club, but they wanted the money rather than him.

Plus there's some sniff of a scandal around how Bates ended up with the club after they came out Admin - again not 100% sure what this is, but I know there's definitely a feeling that Bates was not exactly playing things by the book and that LUFC were swindled out of some money that went into Bates' back pocket. There's an article here about it, although it steers clear of making any outright accusations.

Not that any this makes the Venky's better, but it's worth remembering that we don't have the monopoly on crappy owners.

[thenodrog]

Just out of interest, how much do you understand of what is going on at Leeds under Bates?

I don't claim to be an expert on it, I haven't taken that much notice of what has been going on, but a couple of snippets that I've picked up from living over here include:

1) highest ticket prices ever at Elland Rd, and they keep on going up season after season,

SUPPLY AND DEMAND SO THATS FAIR ENOUGH.

2) 64 loan players since 2004.

GOOD BUSINESS. TRANSFER FEES ARE RAPIDLY BECOMING HISTORY.

3) £25.5mil received for players, £2.5mil spent on players.

GOOD BUSINESS. MAKING MONEY IS THE PURPOSE OF INVESTMENT.

4) Sacking a manager 1 day after the transfer window closes, ensuring that any new manager won't be able to spend any money.

NO IDEA ABOUT THAT BUT IT CERTAINLY STOPS ANY NEW MANAGER MAKING FINANCIAL DEMANDS BY EMBARRASSING THE OWNERS.

5) Whereas we kept hold of a player that made noises about wanting out, Leeds fans have watched players forced out of the club - players like Kasper Schmeichal who said, even after he'd been sold, that he never wanted to leave the club, but they wanted the money rather than him.

SEE 3.

Plus there's some sniff of a scandal around how Bates ended up with the club after they came out Admin - again not 100% sure what this is, but I know there's definitely a feeling that Bates was not exactly playing things by the book and that LUFC were swindled out of some money that went into Bates' back pocket. There's an article here about it, although it steers clear of making any outright accusations.

SPECULATION. CAN'T COMMENT.

Not that any this makes the Venky's better, but it's worth remembering that we don't have the monopoly on crappy owners.

(capitals for obvious reasons.)

Ken Bates has made sensible decisions imo, wish he'd bought us 15 months ago. He's a hard taskmaster but thats is necessary in this fools paradise. I'd have done exactly the same. He wasn't responsible for the state the club was in did he? He inherited a car crash remember. Did he ever say it would be a bowl of cherries for the fans?

[OJRovers]

Plus i'm sure I read somewhere that no-one really knows who fully owns Leeds United, its some off-shore fund in the Cayman Islands or something.

We are now effectively being managed almost weekly by Barclays Bank, fortunately they are not foolish enough to let Venkys spend more of their money. However the point is that to be a Prem League owner these days you need to put some of your own money in.

[booth]

Just out of interest, how much do you understand of what is going on at Leeds under Bates?

I don't claim to be an expert on it, I haven't taken that much notice of what has been going on, but a couple of snippets that I've picked up from living over here include:

1) highest ticket prices ever at Elland Rd, and they keep on going up season after season,

2) 64 loan players since 2004.

3) £25.5mil received for players, £2.5mil spent on players.

4) Sacking a manager 1 day after the transfer window closes, ensuring that any new manager won't be able to spend any money.

5) Whereas we kept hold of a player that made noises about wanting out, Leeds fans have watched players forced out of the club - players like Kasper Schmeichal who said, even after he'd been sold, that he never wanted to leave the club, but they wanted the money rather than him.

Plus there's some sniff of a scandal around how Bates ended up with the club after they came out Admin - again not 100% sure what this is, but I know there's definitely a feeling that Bates was not exactly playing things by the book and that LUFC were swindled out of some money that went into Bates' back pocket. There's an article here about it, although it steers clear of making any outright accusations.

Not that any this makes the Venky's better, but it's worth remembering that we don't have the monopoly on crappy owners.

No one said anything about having a monopoly on crappy owners but yourself. The point was that some fans obviously don't have the foggiest idea of exactly how bad Venkys are. You would not want them anywhere near your club for how bad your owners were. It's like picking who you'd prefer to go to lunch with from Ted Bundy and Peter Sutcliffe. Or choosing a nicer shade of terrible.

Put it into perspective, Bates goes to games and knows about football at the very least. And Venky's did not pick up Rovers in a bad way as he did with Leeds. But the bottom line is, for all of Bates sins, you would not want him replaced by Venkys

[darrenrover]

Plus i'm sure I read somewhere that no-one really knows who fully owns Leeds United, its some off-shore fund in the Cayman Islands or something.

We are now effectively being managed almost weekly by Barclays Bank, fortunately they are not foolish enough to let Venkys spend more of their money. However the point is that to be a Prem League owner these days you need to put some of your own money in.

I personally couldn't give a toss about Leeds but there are undoubtedly lessons to be learned from their demise. Read Wayne Wild's blog and in particular the part regarding the decimal point and the correlation between income and players wages. It was a great statement from Wayne and very well written, therein lies the problem with football in general and the reasons why something has to happen because long term it is unsustainable.

As Jack Walker had a vision for realising a dream and had adequate finances at the time to enable us all to realise it, wouldn't it be a great legacy to him if we were collectively able to buck the general trend and be able to realise ownership of the club once again primarily be owned by the people of Blackburn or Rovers supporters worldwide. In this current day and age, even Jack's wealth would be inadequate as is Dave Whelans.

One thing that put it all into perspective for me was our home game against Chelsea. Late in the game Fernando Torres spooned a sitter from 5 yards over the bar as all will remember. He cost £50 million in transfer fees and is on a basic annual salary of £10 million. What's the Rovers Club valuation by comparison?

Food for thought regarding our expectations I think

[booth]

One thing that put it all into perspective for me was our home game against Chelsea. Late in the game Fernando Torres spooned a sitter from 5 yards over the bar as all will remember. He cost £50 million in transfer fees and is on a basic annual salary of £10 million. What's the Rovers Club valuation by comparison?

Food for thought regarding our expectations I think

But the fact that Torres hasn't been a success at Chelsea (3 goals for £60m and counting) also shows that it's still 11 mortals vs 11 mortals, which is why football still remains a great game despite stupid amounts of cash and agents doing their best to ruin it. And while it remains 11 v 11 mortals, that's why smaller clubs still have a glimmer of hope if they are well managed.

[darrenrover]

But the fact that Torres hasn't been a success at Chelsea (3 goals for £60m and counting) also shows that it's still 11 mortals vs 11 mortals, which is why football still remains a great game despite stupid amounts of cash and agents doing their best to ruin it. And while it remains 11 v 11 mortals, that's why smaller clubs still have a glimmer of hope if they are well managed.

Unless I've missed something, that was not the point I was trying to make.

Think about it

[DaveyB]

No one said anything about having a monopoly on crappy owners but yourself. The point was that some fans obviously don't have the foggiest idea of exactly how bad Venkys are. You would not want them anywhere near your club for how bad your owners were. It's like picking who you'd prefer to go to lunch with from Ted Bundy and Peter Sutcliffe. Or choosing a nicer shade of terrible.

Put it into perspective, Bates goes to games and knows about football at the very least. And Venky's did not pick up Rovers in a bad way as he did with Leeds. But the bottom line is, for all of Bates sins, you would not want him replaced by Venkys

The point was that fans rarely really understand the situation at any club other than there own.

And in the same way as some fans would take literally anyone over the Venkys (even someone as hated at their own club as Bates), so fans at other clubs feel the same way about their owners.

No doubt had a Leeds fan seen Theno's claim that he would take Bates over Venkys any day of the week, they would have gone back to their forum and bemoaned the fact that other fans don't understand what is happening at their club