[Archived] Venky's willing to sell?

[PAFELL]

FFS it's not personal.

Bloody humanists (again that's not a dig at you I just humanists hard to get on with). If you float an idea people will dissect it and critic it, if you can't deal with it don't float idea's.

Sadly his post having a dig at supporters about money was made personal by its content.

[hesfromburn]

I see this plan as worse as our current regime without a shadow of a doubt.

Its not realistic and People cant afford to pay what you are asking and I dont see how the club can progress under your mad idea, there will need to be extra money put in I dont see where this could come from?

Are you looking further than your hatred for venkys and the end of your noses??

[RevidgeBlue]

Improvement - not even a shadow of a doubt.

How is transferring ownership of the Club to a different group of people who haven't got the money to sustain it an improvement exactly?

[PAFELL]

To put that thought quickly to bed, PAFELL, and to everyone else out there having thoughts along these lines - Here is the plain truth. Remember when I came on here and was introducing the proposal document I put together that initial required insane amounts of cash to create an investment fund that could sustain Rovers indefinitely?

Well this is a heavily reduced and modified version of the plan that I have worked on with Wayne over the past couple of weeks that would enable a supporters-based organization to buy the club if the worst happened (i.e. relegation or administration) and simply is a plan to save Rovers in the event that these horrendous things came to pass.

I have done extensive research into the last decade of the Club's accounts, and produced the proposal based on this research. I would venture to say that I know the Club's accounts as well as anyone who does not have inside access.

Let's not get carried away here - How could and why would a hundred or so protesters and Wayne have any chance of doing what you say? Much more far fetched than this proposal is, I can tell you.

I created the original concept in a weekend. Writing the proposal took another week. This of course doesn't take into account my already ongoing studies of the Club's accounts over the years, but in effect it was created in a week. Ironically enough what set me off was JA's stupefying interview and subsequent statement on SEM's website. I have been working on it ever since, so for about a month now since it was born, on nights and weekends.

Point taken. But it had to be suggested for you to answer and clarify.

Either way. It boils down to who has the money to put in. Would I. Getting hold of a £1000 not a problem, even more. But it is a case of would I want to or could I afford to take the risk. with the job market so unstable, it is a very very hard question to answer. But the fact I question it, would mean NO.

[Athlete]

Point taken. But it had to be suggested for you to answer and clarify.

Either way. It boils down to who has the money to put in. Would I. Getting hold of a £1000 not a problem, even more. But it is a case of would I want to or could I afford to take the risk. with the job market so unstable, it is a very very hard question to answer. But the fact I question it, would mean NO.

I very very much doubt 10,000 people would chip in a grand a piece the majority of people in Blackburn don't have the kind of spare cash lying around unfortunately , people spend a lot on Rovers out of their hard earnedh but asking for that amount isn't going to be viable.

[RevidgeBlue]

I very very much doubt 10,000 people would chip in a grand a piece the majority of people in Blackburn don't have the kind of spare cash lying around unfortunately , people spend a lot on Rovers out of their hard earnedh but asking for that amount isn't going to be viable.

As unlikely as that would be to happen in reality, it still isn't the main objection. How does the Club survive thereafter?

Still waiting for any sort of answer on that one.

[hesfromburn]

As unlikely as that would be to happen in reality, it still isn't the main objection. How does the Club survive thereafter?

Still waiting for any sort of answer on that one.

I agree this is the main problem.

The only answer I can think of is: It Cant :!:

[Amo]

As unlikely as that would be to happen in reality, it still isn't the main objection. How does the Club survive thereafter?

Still waiting for any sort of answer on that one.

The only answer I can think of is seek out investors.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

I don't really understand your post but we have rarely if ever managed to trade at anything other than a loss in the recent past and that is with a nil or negative net spend on players so that would suggest to me that in an ideal world we need the assistance of a philanthropic benefactor to survive in the Premiership.

Obviously you could never guarantee not to be relegated under any manager or ownership. Conversely a quick glance at the Trust document appears to reveal the deeply flawed assumption that if relegated we would only spend a maximum of two seasons in the Championship. How can you guarantee that exactly?

Finally you seem to contradict yourself by believing it is possible to run at a profit on the one hand yet being critical of offloading ageing overpaid non contributing players on the other. And the point about the 10m player is that even if the supporters did somehow manage to purchase the club the subsequent calls on their finances would be never ending. It would be a new stiker one week, pay the bank of the next, pay the latest installment of x's transfer fee etc. etc.

Like I said complete pie in the sky. In my opinion of course.

Without getting too involved in trying to explain the entire ins and outs of football club's a financial budget -

The first thing of course is the two seasons in the Championship. Of course it is not a guarantee, as you say nothing can be guaranteed. Of course with the £16m parachute payments for the first two years, you can maintain a wage bill that is in the top four of that division while still maintaining fiscal sustainability - thus it is your best hope of going back up - of course if that was not achieved, then you have to do it the long and hard way. The budget has to be rescaled for the next two years of only £8m in parachute payments, at which point you still have the opportunity to have a wage bill in the top half of that division...then if you still can't make it, you go back to a level playing field with the rest of them. The thing is, you manage these things through proper player contracts and not only the levels of, but also the timing of transfer activity, just ask JW - he was a master of this. The only thing different is that the budget would not gamble on achieving a certain league position, which is essentially what resulted in budget shortfalls under the WT and JW (when we didn't achieve the budgeted league position)

I criticize Venkys for putting the Club in the position that they did, totally mismanaging player contracts and transfers during January 2011 when someone came in and used ownership level authority to renew a bunch of contracts and bring in a bunch of players with ridiculous clauses in them that resulted in the skyrocketing of the wage bill with virtually no new first team players coming in, which was in effect directly responsible for the massive loss the Club recorded during the 2011 Fiscal Year. It is no wonder the club has had debt being called in, and liquidity problems galore.

The last bit you are talking about is called managing cash flow. This is a real concern. Again it comes down to capable financial management. How do you manage the cash flow of outgoing weekly wages, TV money's quarterly installments, bi-monthy gate receipts and monthly ST installment payments, as well as merchandising sales, commercial and sponsorship installment payments, tax bills, interest payments, etc. In today's climate, it is a big struggle and a short term line of credit would have to be in place to cover daily operations cash shortfalls but these are timing issues, not increases in long-term debt.

In 2005, 2006, and 2008 we ran at an operating profit excluding player trading. Exluding Venkys, we have run at a £9m loss over 6 years, or only a £1,5 million loss per year. In all but 2 of those years, (2007 and 2009) we had a negative overall player trading balance (Meaning we were a buying club those years). There is real potential there for running the club on a sustainable basis and still be a solid Premier League side. So I don't feel that I am contradicting myself at all.

[Andy]

Don't be silly mate none of this is a personal slight and you have to be appluaded for putting together a very professional and orginal idea, one which would work at Liverpool etc but in Blackburn it may be tougher.

If I had £1000 spare I'd be up for it myself, sadly that isn't the case

Absolutely.

It's a good idea in principle and could work at a club with a larger fanbase, from a more affluent area of the country.

The vast, vast, vast majority of Rovers fans won't be able to afford a minimum £1k layout, with the potential for more being required down the line.

In my case, I got married last year, expecting my first child this year and saving for a mortgage deposit all the while. All of those things sit several hundred tiers higher on the priority list than Blackburn Rovers and any spare money I have goes towards these things.

Football is a hobby and pastime, the other things are life-important.

Again, good theory but you will simply never get 10,000 Rovers fans to commit anywhere near £1k each.

Probably not even half of that.

[blue_n_white99]

Surely the protagonists of this offer will have considered all the scenarios and their proposal will answer all our questions/doubts, if it doesn't people won't buy into it and it will die of natural causes. Personally I'm happy to read the detail and then decide if it is worthwhile or not.

I am hopeful that I will be pleasantly surprised, enthused and for the first time in twelve months optimistic, something that has not occurred under these charlatans guidance.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

Sadly his post having a dig at supporters about money was made personal by its content.

That is a very fair point, PAFELL - I just got angry at the fact that people would rather cook up conspiracy theories and say that wouldn't it just be better for a Sheik or Russian Oligarch to come in and make everything all better? While it was not my intention to alienate everyone, there was only ever going to be one outcome to that post, and I should have let myself calm a bit before pressing that reply button.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

Absolutely.

It's a good idea in principle and could work at a club with a larger fanbase, from a more affluent area of the country.

The vast, vast, vast majority of Rovers fans won't be able to afford a minimum £1k layout, with the potential for more being required down the line.

In my case, I got married last year, expecting my first child this year and saving for a mortgage deposit all the while. All of those things sit several hundred tiers higher on the priority list than Blackburn Rovers and any spare money I have goes towards these things.

Football is a hobby and pastime, the other things are life-important.

Again, good theory but you will simply never get 10,000 Rovers fans to commit anywhere near £1k each.

Probably not even half of that.

Excellent post, Andy! I am about one year ahead of you on that timeline! I just had my second child and we finished saving up for a deposit on our house last year, when my daughter was still nursing. Now my wife is bothering me about doing renovations! I want to reiterate that I understand exactly what you are saying, and in no way assume that there will be 100,000 Blackburninans line up to buy the club. I also recognize that this initiative is most likely to succeed with the help of another movement, such a possibly the one the the two Ian's are allegedly putting together. It would be a marriage made in heaven.

But we have to have a lot of open-mindedness to see where this takes us - dismissing it out of hand before it is even announced "officially", right?

[RevidgeBlue]

The last bit you are talking about is called managing cash flow. This is a real concern. Again it comes down to capable financial management. How do you manage the cash flow of outgoing weekly wages, TV money's quarterly installments, bi-monthy gate receipts and monthly ST installment payments, as well as merchandising sales, commercial and sponsorship installment payments, tax bills, interest payments, etc. In today's climate, it is a big struggle and a short term line of credit would have to be in place to cover daily operations cash shortfalls but these are timing issues, not increases in long-term debt.

In 2005, 2006, and 2008 we ran at an operating profit excluding player trading. Exluding Venkys, we have run at a £9m loss over 6 years, or only a £1,5 million loss per year. In all but 2 of those years, (2007 and 2009) we had a negative overall player trading balance (Meaning we were a buying club those years). There is real potential there for running the club on a sustainable basis and still be a solid Premier League side. So I don't feel that I am contradicting myself at all.

Thanks for the reply Dan. I will have to agree to disagree with you on the feasibility of it all. By your own admission the WT ran up a loss of 9m over 6 years and I know for a fact JW considered that expenses had been pared down to an absolute minimum and in my view expenditure on players during the period was woefully inadequate.

All that would still leave a further 9m for a supporters conglomerate to find and in my opinion the Bank would look at a such an arrangement extremely unfavourably in terms of credit facilities.

[Tom]

Daniel, a few question if you have time:

-is it right to presume that this is the announcement expected tomorrow?

-If so and this is actually being proposed will there be a meeting where people can ask can and see a presentation on what to expect.

-Also if this only comes into effect if we go down would we only then try and get people to sign up, surely the process would be a long one from inception to people investing to the ownership of the club being transferred, in which time the transfer window will be open and the current owners hoping to get back what they can.

-You mention yourself and WW, is anyone else leading this, will you and Wayne or anyone else be holding senior positions should it come off?

[Doug]

It seems reasonable to at least allow some sort of announcement to be made. Then we can all debate the pro's and con's.

The threads (since I joined) have become more and more negative and ugly by the week, usually ending up with the same Venkys out/Kean out/you aren't a good fan because of ......(many reasons), but never come up with an answer to the 'if not Venkys then who' question.

I would suggest we all reserve judgement until we know, but, I'm certainly more positive that there is something being put together should the worst case scenario happen, (something which many posters have appeared to view as inevitable).

[47er]

Your missing the point.

Any support of the protests is now support for that particular bid or group bidding. That is not what was discussed at the start and so consequently now before they have even bid, we the fans have yet again been lied too. We've seen the club try and manipulate fans this season and this is no different, but because they are local it's alright? Just because they are local does not make the lie any less.

You'll notice I never said the protests are the reason we will go down, that's you reading my words and adding in your own.

If the protests can't be responsible for relegation then how are the fans being manipulated? All too easy to have a go at people who care. We all agree that its just about impossible to make a profit out of Rovers so where's the vested interest?

I think Glen and his associates are becoming the new Wilcox or Andrews.

[TBTF]

Has anybody thought how the Bank bit of the deal would be handled? Is that not going to be close on £20m by the time we get to May? Barclays agreeing to leave the reponsability for that in the hands of 10,000 fans? I think they will ask Venkys to clear it before any deal can be done and that will mean their baby will have cost a bloody fortune.The only other way is that they sell all your players to clear the Bank and leave you with the rebuilding job.

Are you really thinking straight? How the hell and who in your camp is going to have the nous to do that?

I think you will be Captain of the Titanic when it goes down boys - Brave and good effort but not a chance in hell!!

[47er]

Message to Paul and others.

Please never again complain about Venkys.

In fact, I think you should just come out and say what you are really thinking. Who is it you don't like? Glen Mullan? Ian Battersby? Wayne Wild? Because this is obviously a personal vendetta.

How have the protests been engineered to bring about relegation and an hostile takeover? They haven't even brought about any defeats!

I think you are giving people too much "credit" to make them out to be some kind of evil geniuses. There is no doubt the protests have evolved and the approach has changed but that is only because we are in uncharted territory in terms of football club ownership and NOTHING will work. One approach in these circumstance is to give up, another is to try to do something.

People moan about foreign ownership, saying we could have had Ali Sayed or Gaydamak. Then a potential local consortium is shown this kind of disdain and vicious rumour mongering for their efforts to get our club back.

Disgusting.

My view in a nutshell.

[blueboy3333]

A fan's takeover would be horrendous, just imagine how many ITK's there would be!

The dream would be to stay in the Prem and for the Venky lot to do one. With the TV money, a good manager and much lower wages the club could be self-sufficient. For anyone at Rovers to be on £60k, like Samba, is ridiculous. I bet the wages at Swansea and Norwich are less than half the £60m a year that are spent at Rovers. I think Blackpools wage budget was about £15m in their season in the Prem and without Hoillets last minute goal at home against them they probs would have stayed up. It can be done with the right people involved.

[47er]

Well if he is happy for the club to be relegated. He can sod off to burnley.

Pafell, I think there's a very real chance of us being relegated,especially after Saturday. How many leads is this manager going to throw away? If we are relegated, there must be a reasonable chance of the Raos sleep-walking us into administration.

At that point the vultures will circle. Who do you want to win then---the Ali Syeds of the world or your own?

Though anyone who loves Rovers and reads the stuff on here would be forgiven for walking away. No Rovers can be "happy" with relegation but somebody has to come up with a solution to move us on. Its easy to throw your hands up in horror but do nothing.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329080322[/url]' post='1225130']

Daniel, a few question if you have time:

-is it right to presume that this is the announcement expected tomorrow?

-If so and this is actually being proposed will there be a meeting where people can ask can and see a presentation on what to expect.

-Also if this only comes into effect if we go down would we only then try and get people to sign up, surely the process would be a long one from inception to people investing to the ownership of the club being transferred, in which time the transfer window will be open and the current owners hoping to get back what they can.

-You mention yourself and WW, is anyone else leading this, will you and Wayne or anyone else be holding senior positions should it come off?

Wayne has told me that the LT will be running it tomorrow. Apparently they called him to get his commentary on the People on Sunday's article that ran today about a bid by local businessmen, and he is using that opportunity to have them run this.

To be honest, Wayne has run with this a bit ahead of me, but I would strongly encourage there be a meeting that presents the plan in full detail with Q&A and the whole bit.

I had envisioned starting the process now, and having all the money put in a frozen escrow account, to be returned in the even of failure to buy the club, plus interest and minus banks fees (pretty much awash), but that may not fly either. It would be important to have the buying entity ready to go right away to purchase the club so there would be time over the summer to get things in order, as you say.

Right now it is just Wayne and I. I have no knowledge of Wayne's thoughts, but as for myself, I would not push for any position within the Club at all. I would of course consider working for the Club in the finance area an absolute dream job, but it is not, and never has been my intention to use this initiative as a vehicle of personal ambition of any kind.

[47er]

Wow...just wow...without trying to disrespect anyone, it seems as though most of you don't want to make things better, you just want it to be handed to you. What a bunch of hypocrisy if that is the case. You can all just stop calling it, "your" or "our" club then. The supporters should be the caretakers of the club and its history, full stop. If you all don't want that then what's the point? Is this just a place for you all to come and let out your life frustrations by complaining and whining and spouting cynicism and negativity?

I am probably going to get slated/flamed for this, but the lack of any sense of emotional ownership of the club you love and support is appalling. That BRAG would support this is only positive. You all have been slating them for just protesting and it not achieving anything. Now if indeed they are supporting this, and they do put up their own money to start the initiative, you are going to go on and say that they are making some cloak and dagger power play to take over the club??? Are you kidding me? The plan calls for 10,000 supporters worldwide to purchase shares, BRAG or Wayne could never do it alone, and they don't want to - they want a club owned by all the supporters.

One stipulation of the plan is that Rovers are relegated - for the simple reason that the initiative could not otherwise afford what Venkys would be asking, AND that Venkys more than likely would not sell if Rovers are still in the Premiership come the end of May. To then translate that into Wayne or BRAG actually wanting Rovers relegated is the most ridiculous and misguided leap of logic I have heard in a while. You guys make Riversiders seem like a bunch of utopian optimists!

This is a back-up plan to save the club in the event of relegation, so it doesn't do a Leeds or Charlton, or Portsmouth. If people have your attitudes, it of course won't get off the ground. Thankfully there are many many people out there that actually DO love the club.

And who is to say that this initiative could not join up with whatever the Ian's may or may not have cooking? What if, for example (pure conjecture by the way) They said they would match whatever funding can be raised by the supporters on a 48% basis? Win win....but maybe you all don't want to hear that. Maybe you are all happier just keeping your heads down and extolling your miseries and crying out for a savior....

Very well said.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329080688[/url]' post='1225134']

Has anybody thought how the Bank bit of the deal would be handled? Is that not going to be close on £20m by the time we get to May? Barclays agreeing to leave the reponsability for that in the hands of 10,000 fans? I think they will ask Venkys to clear it before any deal can be done and that will mean their baby will have cost a bloody fortune.The only other way is that they sell all your players to clear the Bank and leave you with the rebuilding job.

Are you really thinking straight? How the hell and who in your camp is going to have the nous to do that?

I think you will be Captain of the Titanic when it goes down boys - Brave and good effort but not a chance in hell!!

This would of course have to be negotiated. However, it is very likely that Venkys have been or are being forced to half that £20m then it will be £10m before they go into the fourth quarter of their fiscal year. Secondly, the day to day operations of the club will not be run by 10,000 fans in any case. It will be run with a largely free Board of Directors, as under the Walker Trust, and the Supporters body, as represented on the Board, and by their Committee of Trustees, will male sure they are sticking to the plan and strategy. It is not going to be asking Ewood to show a raise of hands for every decision. It would be run under best practices of governance as any business. The servicing of the debt has been built into the budget.

[Stuart]

A fan's takeover would be horrendous, just imagine how many ITK's there would be!

The dream would be to stay in the Prem and for the Venky lot to do one.

This view is all well and good but there is never any agreement on who could and would follow Venkys.

Rich benefactor Rovers fan - unlikely, where have they been hiding?

Rich oil sheikhs - not enough kudos

Commercial enterprise with a business plan - we have that now, any business case for owning (and making money out of) a football club is flawed

Fan group / shares - not enough fans to make it financially viable

Fans-with-financially-backed-consortium - possibly but there is so much cynicism and it would need to be run as a community-based project and not for ROI.

The nightmare scenario following the Walkers has already come to pass. We are not an investment opportunity and we are not affordable locally unless we are relegated.

Once Venkys go, I fear we are going to have to do things the hard way.