[Archived] Venky's willing to sell?

[Roost]

Mark1875's post on behalf of GM (I assume it wasn't a statement from the elected BRAG Committee) raises the following questions:

• You only got invloved in protesting because you were 'heavily pushed' by people on this board that have now left you to it. Why you, amd why do what somebody tells you to do?
  
• You say that you have never used inside information DURING a protest to gather support.Does that mean that you have someone on the inside but decide that knowledge is power? If you have knowledge (as you seem to imply) then why not share it to get more people on side?
  
• You say a lot of revelations have been 'leaked by the club' and by media. Care to list them for the doubters out there?
  
• You were asked by Kamy & Philipl to 'turn up the heat' - again, do you always do what you are told by board members?
  
• WW asked you for your opinion on the busness plan 'as you have a business degree'. It obviously wasnt from Harvard if you think that 10,000 x £1000 is easily achieveable. What were your thoughts on future investment and sustainability?
  

Before you respond, take a breather. These are genuine questions and not an attack on you, BRAG or the protesters.

[gumboots]

What is wrong with you? Are some of you really that thick? It is hard to fathom sometimes...

I don't think comments like that are helpful? If you want people to look seriously at any proposal that may be forthcoming then treating them with the same contempt as our current owners treat them, is hadly going to get the desired reaction. We are not thick. We are simply sceptical about any plan that does not involve someone putting in a majority of the cash required to purchase and run the club. We know that the majority of Rovers fans we know don't have spare cash or, if they did, would easily find other uses to which it could be put. We know that even if an initial sum could be raised there is then a question about ongoing financial input, which we certainly couldn't commit ourselves to. Nothing you have said so far has addressed any of these quite legitimate concerns. I know you have told us that we should wait and see the full proposal, but if that is the case then why be rude to us now. We're far more likely to look properly if encouraged rather than insulted.

[Parsonblue]

What is wrong with you? Are some of you really that thick? It is hard to fathom sometimes...

So anyone who has a different view from your good self is thick? Somehow I don't think you are selling your "pie in the sky" plan particularly well if you have to resort to insulting the very people you are looking to get investment from.

Whatever else Desai might be she is a businesswoman. Why would she sell cheaply or give the club away when she can sell players in the summer, take the TV money from this season, take the parachute money if the worst happens or sell either the Academy or the Senior Training Ground at Brockhall? There seems to be the mistaken belief that the club would be worth nothing if we are relegated. This is simply not true. The players are still sellable, the income from parachute payments is still available and there is plenty of land available that could be sold.

Reading Wayne Wild's proposals in the LT today, whilst no doubt well intentioned, strike me as pure fantasy. They are based on the club being relegated and Venkys selling for a nominal fee. Nor am I convinced that 10,000 shares at a £1,000 each are going to be easy to shift. Many wouldn't be able to afford that and many who can would have second thoughts about tossing money away on such a scheme.

Even if, by some miracle, £10 million could be raised to deal with the debts what happens after that? Who pays the wages, the running costs etc. If we are in the Championship the gates will fall dramatically and so will income.

I'll no doubt be accused of being negative but having read the plans in the LT I really can't see how they can work when they are based on Venkys giving the club away.

[47er]

Mark1875's post on behalf of GM (I assume it wasn't a statement from the elected BRAG Committee) raises the following questions:

• You only got invloved in protesting because you were 'heavily pushed' by people on this board that have now left you to it. Why you, amd why do what somebody tells you to do?
  
• You say that you have never used inside information DURING a protest to gather support.Does that mean that you have someone on the inside but decide that knowledge is power? If you have knowledge (as you seem to imply) then why not share it to get more people on side?
  
• You say a lot of revelations have been 'leaked by the club' and by media. Care to list them for the doubters out there?
  
• You were asked by Kamy & Philipl to 'turn up the heat' - again, do you always do what you are told by board members?
  
• WW asked you for your opinion on the busness plan 'as you have a business degree'. It obviously wasnt from Harvard if you think that 10,000 x £1000 is easily achieveable. What were your thoughts on future investment and sustainability?
  

Before you respond, take a breather. These are genuine questions and not an attack on you, BRAG or the protesters.

*he didn't say that. "only" is your word.

*"During" is your emphasis. He simply said he didn't use inside info during a protest. He didn't say he had it but didn't use it.

*No need-he said many were reported by the media.

* No he doesn't always do what he's told but on this occasion he chose to.

*He was asked for his thoughts and gave them. He says this is one of several possible solutions but the one he'd like best is for Venkys to turn over a new leaf.

I really don't know if his answers would accord with what I've given him or not. I'm just pointing out that his is a moderate response, nothing like as incendiary as yours and quite capable of being read that way by anyone, with or without a degree from Harvard.

And finally the usual weasel words------------not an attack on anyone, just genuine questions etc------yeah right!

Sad to see our fans so aggressively negative about people trying to save our club.

[dave birch]

....and where are philipl and Kamy on this issue, after all the fuss about the Qataris, they've gone very quiet......

As there was no reply, I ask again......

[Roost]

Having read the LT article, the extract below is the reason this will never happen:

“There have been a few rumours about people being interested in takeovers but the only people you are likely to get interested are people who think they can make money out of it, wanting to buy it cheap and get a return on their investment"

So, your competition for the purchase of the club would only come from people who actually want to BUY the club rather than have it handed to them? Now, I dont have a business degree but I would say that Venkys would be more will to sell than give.

Also, the assumption that the club will be worth nothing if relegated is just plain daft, and most of all, just not true.

[Parsonblue]

Sad to see our fans so aggressively negative about people trying to save our club.

With all due respect I don't think fans are being negative about the people involved, I certainly wasn't as I don't know them. I think people are simply not convinced about the viability of the proposals put forward. Personally, having read what Mr. Wild has to say in the LT today I'm far from convinced as it seems to require the present owners to give it away for a nominal fee and that once £10 million is raised for paying debts - and I must admit I thought the debt was greater than that - there is no plan for raising funds for running costs. It all seems rather vague. That's not being negatative that's merely giving my take on the proposals in the LT today.

[Kamy100]

As there was no reply, I ask again......

I don't really have to much knowledge about what WW, BRAG etc are attempting to do, so it is hard to comment.

Having read what was posted earlier in this thread, at the moment my opinion is that it seems far fetched and raises questions about how they would address the continued financial issues if they were successful with this takeover bid. I don’t know WW but it doesn’t appear that he personally has the finance to bankroll the running of a football club so my big concern would be how they would finance this if they were successful, but for all we know they have other people involved who could/would finance this so this may not be a issue at all.

In terms of running the club I am sure that these guys would make a better job of it than Venky’s (heck my kids would run the club better than Venky’s) but without knowing a lot more details it is hard to make a judgement one way or the other.

[PAFELL]

I don't think comments like that are helpful? If you want people to look seriously at any proposal that may be forthcoming then treating them with the same contempt as our current owners treat them, is hadly going to get the desired reaction. We are not thick. We are simply sceptical about any plan that does not involve someone putting in a majority of the cash required to purchase and run the club. We know that the majority of Rovers fans we know don't have spare cash or, if they did, would easily find other uses to which it could be put. We know that even if an initial sum could be raised there is then a question about ongoing financial input, which we certainly couldn't commit ourselves to. Nothing you have said so far has addressed any of these quite legitimate concerns. I know you have told us that we should wait and see the full proposal, but if that is the case then why be rude to us now. We're far more likely to look properly if encouraged rather than insulted.

Well said

[Roost]

I don't really have to much knowledge about what WW, BRAG etc are attempting to do, so it is hard to comment.

Having read what was posted earlier in this thread, at the moment my opinion is that it seems far fetched and raises questions about how they would address the continued financial issues if they were successful with this takeover bid. I don’t know WW but it doesn’t appear that he personally has the finance to bankroll the running of a football club so my big concern would be how they would finance this if they were successful, but for all we know they have other people involved who could/would finance this so this may not be a issue at all.

In terms of running the club I am sure that these guys would make a better job of it than Venky’s (heck my kids would run the club better than Venky’s) but without knowing a lot more details it is hard to make a judgement one way or the other.

Kamy, would you care to elaborate on GM's comment that you & Philipl instructed him to 'turn up the heat' on the protests in light of the Qatari bid?

[OscarRaven]

What is wrong with you? Are some of you really that thick? It is hard to fathom sometimes...

Can I give you some advice? If you have something to sell I suggest you lay off the personal abuse of the ‘customers’.

I am probably in the minority of supporters who can chip in to buy the club but quite frankly as much as I love the proposal, two or three things are beginning to worry me.

1) Firstly, you seem to have undergone a complete personality change since your opening post. Yes some posters are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 8. Instead of abusing them - explain it again in the same calm way you did when you started here. I hope this is just the result of some late nights and a passion for your project and not the real you coming through.

2) The response from Glen as usual is heartfelt and passionate and for me his integrity and motives are beyond question, but if the action group is involved in a buy out then it is no longer objective. That fundamentally changes things for me (and some other supporters it would seem). Glen is very good at the rousing support and has done a tremendous job at cutting through the apathy but I would suggest his tough experiences, passion, shear emotional investment and vow of “whatever it takes” will no longer allow him to look at the situation objectively.

That’s my opinion now if I have to post an alternative business plan (not just ideas, which I have) or show my 'battle scars' to be able to say that then I better take my 'thoughts' and 'opinions' elsewhere. However you can’t have supporter unity if you don’t allow challenge and questioning. In addition no-one will sink thousands into the club if they can’t ask questions about the people they are giving the money too, no matter how blind their love for the club is!

I’m all for contingency planning but the fact that the proposal that BRAG is supporting can only come into effect if the club is relegated means that any future protesters or protests affiliated with them could (wrongly) be labeled as wanting the club relegated.

This is the problem.

I don’t want the club relegated; I don’t want an FA probe; I don’t want points deductions; I don’t want administration; I don’t want the contingency plan activating; I don’t want supporters further divided.

I want the current owners to run the club properly (competent managers at all levels). It is not personal, it is not an attempt to undermine anyone, it’s looking at the facts and coming to one (of many) conclusions.

[Kamy100]

Kamy, would you care to elaborate on GM's comment that you & Philipl instructed him to 'turn up the heat' on the protests in light of the Qatari bid?

I can't speak about Philip but at the time of the Qatari bid I talked to Glen about the bid and how it was progressing and he asked if there was anything that he could do to help, I told him that keeping up the pressure on Venky's was the best way he could help, I posted something similar in the Qatar thread around the time saying that we should all try and pressure Venky's, it was certainly not a specific instruction to Glen.

After the failed Qatar bid I made a personal decision to keep a distance from any further takeover groups, mainly because I am in no way qualified to be involved in these type of things, to be honest even with the Qatari’s I was in way above my head.

It is also my view after talking to senior Venky’s sources that they will not sell/give away the club to anyone at present.

[47er]

With all due respect I don't think fans are being negative about the people involved, I certainly wasn't as I don't know them. I think people are simply not convinced about the viability of the proposals put forward. Personally, having read what Mr. Wild has to say in the LT today I'm far from convinced as it seems to require the present owners to give it away for a nominal fee and that once £10 million is raised for paying debts - and I must admit I thought the debt was greater than that - there is no plan for raising funds for running costs. It all seems rather vague. That's not being negatative that's merely giving my take on the proposals in the LT today.

No,you misunderstand me. Its not about the actual proposal its the automatic negativity about other people's motives I'm referring to. I'm quite prepared to accept the plan may or may not have legs. Time will tell.

Its th eassumptions that are made about the proponents whom, I repeat, are putting up a plan to save their club-our club.

[Roost]

I can't speak about Philip but at the time of the Qatari bid I talked to Glen about the bid and how it was progressing and he asked if there was anything that he could do to help, I told him that keeping up the pressure on Venky's was the best way he could help, I posted something similar in the Qatar thread around the time saying that we should all try and pressure Venky's, it was certainly not a specific instruction to Glen.

After the failed Qatar bid I made a personal decision to keep a distance from any further takeover groups, mainly because I am in no way qualified to be involved in these type of things, to be honest even with the Qatari’s I was in way above my head.

It is also my view after talking to senior Venky’s sources that they will not sell/give away the club to anyone at present.

Thanks Kamy.

[No Nay Never]

Would Mr Mullan be putting his £1000 in, bearing in mind he couldn't afford a season ticket this season?

[BiggusLaddus]

What is wrong with you? Are some of you really that thick? It is hard to fathom sometimes...

And you want me to hand over £1000 of my money?

[PAFELL]

There is not enough information to make a full judgement. But what we have been given so far, is fantasy. But somebody trying to come up with an idea, is commendable.

But.

I cannot see many supporters having the money to put into the pot.

I cannot see how money could be raised to continue after the initial money was put in.

10m - that is just laughable. A lot more than 10m will be needed. Where will that lot more come from. I cannot see venkys letting the club go for 10m.

I cannot help thinking that venkys would not even sell if the club is relegated. They may consider the club is cheaper to run in the champonship and within their own means. They may consider owning a football club prestigeous enough.

I cannot believe that post on behalf of Glen Mullen. All Paul has done is ask questions, like many others. People putting forward plans should expect questions to be asked. Concerns to be raised.

There really is an arrogant element to BRAG if they think people should not ask questions, raise issues and concerns.

Daniel - who started the original plan, which has been adapted - going around calling fans thick etc, does not help at all. Does not address future funding of the club.

Wayne Wild saying £1000 is just half the price of a good holiday. Well I do not know where he goes on holiday. But often people scimp and scrape to raise money for that holiday. Often that holiday can often be the only time the family can get together. Holiday that people have earned.

Glen saying Paul is going around making allegations etc.

It is little wonder people are cynical.

I do not dismiss the plan completely, but it is seriously flawed in my view.

I can't speak about Philip but at the time of the Qatari bid I talked to Glen about the bid and how it was progressing and he asked if there was anything that he could do to help, I told him that keeping up the pressure on Venky's was the best way he could help, I posted something similar in the Qatar thread around the time saying that we should all try and pressure Venky's, it was certainly not a specific instruction to Glen.

After the failed Qatar bid I made a personal decision to keep a distance from any further takeover groups, mainly because I am in no way qualified to be involved in these type of things, to be honest even with the Qatari’s I was in way above my head.

It is also my view after talking to senior Venky’s sources that they will not sell/give away the club to anyone at present.

Thanks that explains things from your side.

The Qatar bid, according to Glen this was just low level people taking to low level people. As you were involved in that a little. Did the bid go to Mrs Desari herself.

[rovers11]

I can't speak about Philip but at the time of the Qatari bid I talked to Glen about the bid and how it was progressing and he asked if there was anything that he could do to help, I told him that keeping up the pressure on Venky's was the best way he could help, I posted something similar in the Qatar thread around the time saying that we should all try and pressure Venky's, it was certainly not a specific instruction to Glen.

After the failed Qatar bid I made a personal decision to keep a distance from any further takeover groups, mainly because I am in no way qualified to be involved in these type of things, to be honest even with the Qataris I was in way above my head.

It is also my view after talking to senior Venkys sources that they will not sell/give away the club to anyone at present.

I suspect Venky's are waiting to see what division we are in next season before discussing a sale. If we are in the prem then, of course, they can ask for a higher price.

As I said yesterday, I don't get these conspiracy theories. Whether this fans takeover is viable or not (and I don't think it is as a 100% buyout) the organisers should be praised for making such a big effort to safeguard the club.

I am keeping an open mind about investing in this.

Occurences where I wouldn't invest:

• If a fans group is expected to buy the club and fund it for many years - that is not viable (and why should the average fan struggling to make a living fund a footballers lifesyle).
  
• If there are other viable buyers (such as the two Ian's)
  

Occurences where I would invest:

• If the club finds itself in dire financial crisis and needs rescuing (Although this would only be a short term solution)
  
• If it was part of a joint ownership (e.g. with the two Ian's)
  
• If there was really no alternative (Although I think there is - the two Ian's are my first choic
  

e)

What are other peoples thoughts on scenarios in which they would and wouldn't invest? (Although, of course bearing in mind people may not be in a financial position to invest under any circumstances).

[PAFELL]

Hmmm, Just like Ian Battersby's commentary during his podcast 23 discussion where he states that from any buyer's point of view, Rovers already have one foot in the Championship. I guess he wants to see Rovers relegated too, to get the best value for money for his consortium of investors?

What is wrong with you? Are some of you really that thick? It is hard to fathom sometimes...

Absolutely agree. That is the foundation that this is built on. Even as the creator of it, I will stop supporting it if it ever strays from that basic assumption.

Well if that is your attitude then the main flaw in this plan is you. This is not the first time you have been abusive to supporters.

Well for my side, I am too think to even think about parting with a £1000 for this half baked idea. That was put together by an abusive individual. There was me thinking that the clubs PR and Venkys PR was one of the worse I have seen. You have just beaten them hands down with that remark.

[Kamy100]

There is not enough information to make a full judgement. But what we have been given so far, is fantasy. But somebody trying to come up with an idea, is commendable.

But.

I cannot see many supporters having the money to put into the pot.

I cannot see how money could be raised to continue after the initial money was put in.

10m - that is just laughable. A lot more than 10m will be needed. Where will that lot more come from. I cannot see venkys letting the club go for 10m.

I cannot help thinking that venkys would not even sell if the club is relegated. They may consider the club is cheaper to run in the champonship and within their own means. They may consider owning a football club prestigeous enough.

I cannot believe that post on behalf of Glen Mullen. All Paul has done is ask questions, like many others. People putting forward plans should expect questions to be asked. Concerns to be raised.

There really is an arrogant element to BRAG if they think people should not ask questions, raise issues and concerns.

Daniel - who started the original plan, which has been adapted - going around calling fans thick etc, does not help at all. Does not address future funding of the club.

Wayne Wild saying £1000 is just half the price of a good holiday. Well I do not know where he goes on holiday. But often people scimp and scrape to raise money for that holiday. Often that holiday can often be the only time the family can get together. Holiday that people have earned.

Glen saying Paul is going around making allegations etc.

It is little wonder people are cynical.

I do not dismiss the plan completely, but it is seriously flawed in my view.

Thanks that explains things from your side.

The Qatar bid, according to Glen this was just low level people taking to low level people. As you were involved in that a little. Did the bid go to Mrs Desari herself.

It certainly didn’t involve “low level people”, it’s hard to say anymore but they are closing in on Villa (even Villa players are now talking about a Qatari takeover) they will talk about Rovers once that is done.

[PAFELL]

Can I give you some advice? If you have something to sell I suggest you lay off the personal abuse of the ‘customers’.

I am probably in the minority of supporters who can chip in to buy the club but quite frankly as much as I love the proposal, two or three things are beginning to worry me.

1) Firstly, you seem to have undergone a complete personality change since your opening post. Yes some posters are putting 2 + 2 together and getting 8. Instead of abusing them - explain it again in the same calm way you did when you started here. I hope this is just the result of some late nights and a passion for your project and not the real you coming through.

2) The response from Glen as usual is heartfelt and passionate and for me his integrity and motives are beyond question, but if the action group is involved in a buy out then it is no longer objective. That fundamentally changes things for me (and some other supporters it would seem). Glen is very good at the rousing support and has done a tremendous job at cutting through the apathy but I would suggest his tough experiences, passion, shear emotional investment and vow of “whatever it takes” will no longer allow him to look at the situation objectively.

That’s my opinion now if I have to post an alternative business plan (not just ideas, which I have) or show my 'battle scars' to be able to say that then I better take my 'thoughts' and 'opinions' elsewhere. However you can’t have supporter unity if you don’t allow challenge and questioning. In addition no-one will sink thousands into the club if they can’t ask questions about the people they are giving the money too, no matter how blind their love for the club is!

I’m all for contingency planning but the fact that the proposal that BRAG is supporting can only come into effect if the club is relegated means that any future protesters or protests affiliated with them could (wrongly) be labeled as wanting the club relegated.

This is the problem.

I don’t want the club relegated; I don’t want an FA probe; I don’t want points deductions; I don’t want administration; I don’t want the contingency plan activating; I don’t want supporters further divided.

I want the current owners to run the club properly (competent managers at all levels). It is not personal, it is not an attempt to undermine anyone, it’s looking at the facts and coming to one (of many) conclusions.

Very good post which sums up some of how I also feel.

It certainly didn’t involve “low level people”, it’s hard to say anymore but they are closing in on Villa (even Villa players are now talking about a Qatari takeover) they will talk about Rovers once that is done.

Thanks for clarifying that part up on Qatar. Even though I already believed it was NOT low level people talks.

The way villa are playing, rovers could even overtake them. I doubt it though. But they do seem to be in freefall. Fans also protesting.

[jannerman]

The frustrations of piecemeal Internet info/leaks/ITKs and half-truths and it's effect on fans is plain for all to see - I think everyone has a right to an opinion and no-one deserves to be shot down in flames, it's just that it's so easy to do on a forum isn't it? We are all supporters at the end of the day and if we can't play nice....I don't think _anyone_ wants to see the club relegated, but as has been alluded to previously sometimes making a shrewd business transaction is all in the timing....

Now, to the proposal document, the following assumptions are made;

- The Club can be acquired with a token or zero cash payment

Is there anything at all from Venkys that gives anyone hope this will happen? They are going to want something between fair market value and what they paid/put in - I don't know enough about their business to know how they release parts of it? Isn't there an issue with a film production company or something? If they had a history of releasing business units at next to no money I'd be more hopeful - alas as has already been mentioned on here, culturally failure is more of an issue over there, it's a part of life in the UK sadly.

- Barclays agree to protracted repayment of debt

Are Barclays Rovers fans?! I can see the sense in this, the "fund" raised by the investment would act as the buffer and show the bank that the company could be all grown up and manage it's debt, BUT you have to have very patient and sympathetic bankers, and if anything they are unsettled as things stand now - perhaps an ownership change would buy some more confidence?

- The club will return to the Premiership in no more than 2 years

Given the competitive nature of the Championship this is a big risk imo, but not unreasonable, however I think there would be bigger problems....although as a side note the assumed projection of the finances appears to infer that the club would stay in the Premiership for the following five years (2016-2020) or am I reading that wrong? If bouncing back up from the Championship on a timescale is a big risk, surely staying in the league for five more years is an even bigger one?

- Wages reduced

This was my personal assumption but I can see from the projections that in actual fact the wage bill would increase year on year from the "return" to the Premiership. But I'm slightly confused where the drastic reduction in wages comes from in 2013, is this the assumption that high-earning players will be sold and replaced with those on a lesser wage or that the current players would accept less?

- Experienced manager/management team found

For me this is absolutely key, but what about removing the current team? Isn't that going to cost a few quid? There's going to be some contracts to pay up. And then we have to assume that the chosen replacements will not hold us to ransom over stupid amounts of money!

- Player sales reinvested

This has been mentioned on here before and done to death, but unless you have an Uncle Jack style benefactor buying and selling is part of the process - it's a sad part of the process but something that has to happen, asset trading. I think with a quality scouting network, and likewise on a development/training system we could bring young players through - if only it were easy to spot them!

All in all it's a strategy based on a whole heap of assumptions and risks - I'd love to see the plan in more detail and I think that before too much time it will have to be expanded upon before it starts to lose creditability - I would be willing to invest, and I'm sure some of the "at a distance" fans, be they in the UK or abroad, would do so to. The Internet (as annoying as it can be) can give us the opportunity to involved people all over the world - I've no idea how that would be managed but it would be worth a shot.

For what it's worth and what I've seen/read of Wayne Wild he seems a switched on guy, if he's the man to kick this off then fine. If relegation happens, and I think with our run-in it's something we'd do exceptionally well to avoid, and this plan is ready to move forward let's see what happens.

But....and you knew there was a but coming didn't you? And forgive me if I missed an important bit of information but I did just speed read the last 6000 pages!

Two things worry me.....does anyone actually believe that Venyks would let the club go quickly? We've all seen the "speed" with which things happen, see last day transfers for that, and perhaps more worryingly it was mentioned further up that parachute payment monies would be utilised to fund wages over the two Championship seasons - are the Venkys going to be daft enough to give the club away and those payments? If they aren't here as asset strippers they certainly would take the carpets and the light bulbs on the way out!

Any plan needs to reasonably assume that there will be little of any value left here when they do finally leave, and that would logically include parachute payments, some player revenue and probably the bulk of any season ticket sales....

Sorry if I ask more questions than I answer, but I thought I'd get my thoughts/feelings out!

[rhodie]

Would Mr Mullan be putting his £1000 in, bearing in mind he couldn't afford a season ticket this season?

Nearly choked on my cornflakes.

[jannerman]

Oh and I'd just like to add, how many people would put money in if it were to be a joint venture between the fans collective and Venkys?

I'm sorry, but I would not invest if it meant helping them.

[PAFELL]

Would Mr Mullan be putting his £1000 in, bearing in mind he couldn't afford a season ticket this season?

:lol: