[Archived] Venky's willing to sell?

[47er]

This is an important point - for one, it is human nature to want to be part of a success. If this got off the ground and actually got to the point where the supporters' organization actually had the funds and negotiated a sale in principle, even the staunchest of the original group of nay sayers would want to get in on it if they could afford to. I daresay Sparky Marky might even come around if it got to that point. In other words, shares would not be limited to 10,000. That is not saying that people are sheep by any means, but the group mentality is strong in social beings such as ourselves!

In addition to that there would of course be efforts to secure more investment - but it would not be in the form of trying to fleece existing shareholders for additional investment. Maybe an investment partner could be brought in with a minority interest for example. I am sure there are plenty of companies out there that could use the opportunity to be associated with English Football's highest profile supporter-owned club to better effect than the Venkys have by buying a controlling stake - there's plenty of great marketing spin in that.

And if the minimum investment level were to be set at 1000 pounds pre unit, there is nothing to stop families or groups of friends clubbing together. I know I've made this point before but it does seem to have got lost.

A simple buy-out of Venkys by a sympathetic, wealthy individual or consortium is the best option imo but if it doesn't happen the this has to be the next bet.

By the way Kamy, were you really saying that once the Qataris have bought Villa they will again look at buying us? That's how it came across. I know no single owner could have 2 premiership clubs but there would be ways around that I guess?

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329251669[/url]' post='1225913']

The journos have been some of the biggest culprits about overstating their wealth. Let's get one thing clear, whichever way you look at their behaviour in connection with Rovers, IMO, it seems like they haven't a pot to p1ss in which is out of line with a £100m profit pa organisation.

It's all about opinions and, IMO, I have seen nothing in their behaviour with Rovers to suggest that they wouldn't do anything to recoup their £23m+ outlay. Make no mistake, if they hadn't been confident of getting their money back, even if relegated, they would surely have snatched-off the hand of Q.P. in the alleged 'bid' back in October.

I think what you and WW are trying to do is admirable but I don't think you will even make it out of the starting blocks because £10m is, IMO, woefully short and, even if it wasn't, I'm well nigh certain you couldn't raise it through the supporters.

Honesty is key in all this and I don't think it's in the best interest of supporters if their hopes are raised, perhaps unfairly.

Ok, I went and looked it up because of your last sentence. The last thing I ever want to be accused of is spreading false hope. Here are the audited financial statements for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011. Highlights include turnover of 85,000,000,000 Rs. which according to average conversion rates over the last year is roughly £1,000,000,000, and 7,303,000,000 Rs in profit after tax, or roughly £100,000,000. So your opinion is factually incorrect. The confusion lies in the terms lakh and lac. Lac = 1m Rs; Lakh = 100k Rs. It is not a straightforward conversion, and I don't fault anyone for being uncertain about it.

With respect, I personally feel it is dishonest to make comments about being"almost certain" about something and then say it is not worth your time to look it up to actually be almost certain. I agree with you that it would be wrong to go to all this trouble without doing the research and putting in the work to make sure you had your numbers right and throwing this out there to get people's hopes up falsely. However, that is not the case here. I have done the work. Wayne forced me to go over it over and over again to make sure. I also think that you are off base in your assumption about how a legitimate global concern of this size would handle any exit strategy from an investment gone wrong, and charge that you are in fact, for lack of a more diplomatic term, fear mongering, and it isn't productive to what we are trying to achieve here, which is to develop a contingency for a worst case scenario. That worst case scenario, in my opinion and based on the facts and conditions I perceive from a business point of view, does not include a malicious attemp at asset stripping.

[mattyc2422]

I don't think it's incumbent on any detractors to have to state a detailed counter-proposal if they don't believe this will work but at the very least they could stop rehashing reasoning which has already been discounted when pooh-poohing the idea.

I've seen the fit-and-proper persons test, BRAG, Wayne Wild and the supposed liquidation of assets like Brockhall brought up several times and Daniel has already gone to great length to explain how those issues/barriers either don't exist or can be overcome.

Several detractors are also working on the assumption that the £10m, if it can be raised, is the end of things and how it wouldn't be possible to run the club on that. Well of course bloody of course. If things ever got that far then surely that figure is just the beginning and there to show that the plan could be viable in the face of other less compelling alternatives. The Board, once in place would immediately set about trying to find additional investment as a matter of priority but there would at least be something to invest in, unlike some nightmare scenarios.

Venky's have demonstrated that they can't honour even the most basic commitments to the bank despite supposedly having the wealth to do so readily. Ultimately if you're Barclay's, are you likely to be so sure Venky's really represent the best chance of not writing off any debt? Sometimes accepting lesser/deferred payments over a longer period of time from a more reliable entity will be a more attractive option.

The main problems with the proposal as it stands are the "only 2 years in the Championship" bit and the likely difficulty in getting enough people to put in. As Dave said however, this should be seen as a starting point, not a take it or leave it proposal. In the absence of any real alternatives at this point, surely our best chance of moving forward is to explore how this proposal can be improved upon rather than throwing our hands up in the air and saying it won't work and that trying to save the club is just "wasting everyone's time".

Miker on the other hand seems to suggest other courses of action would be more beneficial to the community. By all means, but until someone actually fleshes something out it is difficult to make a qualitative assessment as to if that would be the case. It's one thing to say this won't work, it's another to say "this is a waste of time, efforts are better placed elsewhere". It's not unreasonable to expect some alternative suggestions if you're firing the latter.

Like anyone else, I'm hopeful we escape relegation this year but it's far from guaranteed that won't be just a stay of execution. What's another 12 months of Venky's mismanagement and Kean on a Premiership lifestyle likely to do?

Sorry for quoting the entire post but I think it's one of the more sensible posts on the forum over the past few days. I'm by no means convinced of the WW/Daniel plan, and I would struggle to invest the entire share price as it stands. BUT I fully respect both guys or having the courage and initiative to come up with such a strategy and wish them both absolute luck in their endeavours.

The way I see it, IF we go down (which I think is more likely than not unless the Yak scores a heap), Venky's are going to want to get rid and will effectively put us in their "deal with later" pile that gets heaved into the bin when they give their offices a spruce up.

I'd much rather us have a plan such as this, however ambitious, rather than vein cast adrift by Venky's as their old toy that they have got tired of.

[imy9]

Ok, I went and looked it up because of your last sentence. The last thing I ever want to be accused of is spreading false hope. Here are the audited financial statements for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011. Highlights include turnover of 85,000,000,000 Rs. which according to average conversion rates over the last year is roughly £1,000,000,000, and 7,303,000,000 Rs in profit after tax, or roughly £100,000,000. So you're opinion is factually incorrect. The confusion lies in the terms lakh and lac. Lac = 1m Rs; Lakh = 100k Rs. It is not a straightforward conversion, and I don't fault anyone for being uncertain about it.

With respect, I personally feel it is dishonest to make comments about being"almost certain" about something and then say it is not worth your time to look it up to actually be almost certain. I agree with you that it would be wrong to go to all this trouble without doing the research and putting in the work to make sure you had your numbers right and throwing this out there to get people's hopes up falsely. However, that is not the case here. I have done the work. Wayne forced me to go over it over and over again to make sure. I also think that you are off base in your assumption about how a legitimate global concern of this size would handle an exit strategy from an investment gone wrong, and charge that you are in fact, for lack of a more diplomatic term, fear mongering, and it isn't productive to what we are trying to achieve here, which is to develop a contingency for a worst case scenario. That worst case scenario, in my opinion and based on the facts and conditions I perceive from a business point of view, does not include a malicious attemp at asset stripping.

Thanks for clearing up the issue with the figures, did not realise the lac / lakh difference.

[Mercer]

Ok, I went and looked it up because of your last sentence. The last thing I ever want to be accused of is spreading false hope. Here are the audited financial statements for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011. Highlights include turnover of 85,000,000,000 Rs. which according to average conversion rates over the last year is roughly £1,000,000,000, and 7,303,000,000 Rs in profit after tax, or roughly £100,000,000. So you're opinion is factually incorrect. The confusion lies in the terms lakh and lac. Lac = 1m Rs; Lakh = 100k Rs. It is not a straightforward conversion, and I don't fault anyone for being uncertain about it.

With respect, I personally feel it is dishonest to make comments about being"almost certain" about something and then say it is not worth your time to look it up to actually be almost certain. I agree with you that it would be wrong to go to all this trouble without doing the research and putting in the work to make sure you had your numbers right and throwing this out there to get people's hopes up falsely. However, that is not the case here. I have done the work. Wayne forced me to go over it over and over again to make sure. I also think that you are off base in your assumption about how a legitimate global concern of this size would handle an exit strategy from an investment gone wrong, and charge that you are in fact, for lack of a more diplomatic term, fear mongering, and it isn't productive to what we are trying to achieve here, which is to develop a contingency for a worst case scenario. That worst case scenario, in my opinion and based on the facts and conditions I perceive from a business point of view, does not include a malicious attemp at asset stripping.

Anyone who operates in business would be very foolish not to consider a worst case scenario, however uncomfortable that may feel !!! In my view, it's a real risk, so will beg to differ.

What research have you done to arrive at a share issue of 10,000 willing participants and what sample size did you use ?

I think these are the two critical success factors - if either fail, the plan is a non starter.

Dan, I sincerely wish you and WW good luck, I think you are going to need it !

[miqaayil]

Ok, Phase 3 actually sounds very interesting as a plan for increasing turnover in new areas in a creative way that also invests in the long term future of the club, expands the Academy operations, and increases the scouting network and knowledge. Even excluding the need for the scope of phase 1 of your plan. Guarantee top level training to the respective countries' best young talent, and keep the creme de la creme while returning most of them to their home countries to play in their leagues. I like your thinking!

Yes , but phase 1 is needed for the immediate input of cash , and using surrounding areas of stadium to build schools, hostels and in future sports colledge , specializing in sports management , sports medicine , coaching ... this will improve the local econamy ... and has to be pitched as a community saving project and not just buying a football club , thus community leaders and local politicians will jump on bandwagon

further having a strong asian community in lancashire and rovers having a prayer room also helps with the middle east ...

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329251942[/url]' post='1225914']

Not knocking anybody, 11 out of 10 for effort but I would like to point out a pertinent fact that IMO needs to be considered.

Rovers average home gate 22,172 (don't forget cheap season and match day tickets and away following included)

Newcastle Utd ave home gate 48,924

Sunderland 38,461

Fulham 25,237

Championship:

West Ham 29,868

Cardiff 22,289

Southampton 25,546

Derby 25,989

Nottingham Forest 22,124

Leicester City 23,192

Leeds United 24,363

Brighton 20,126

Division 1:

Sheffield Wednesday 20,136

Sheffield United 18,293

Char ton Athletic 17,976

They all field 11 players and 5 subs per game.

I won't elaborate further but just thought these statistics should be considered in the great scheme of things.

True, but pre-Venkys this stat was 25,000 + for two years running.

[philipl]

This is all anyone who has Rovers in their hearts needs to know:

brfcactiongroup @brfcactiongroup

MISSING PERSON(S) Mrs Anuradha Jitendra Desai , Mr Venkateshwar Banda Rao, Mr Balaji Banda Rao - PLEASE RT!!

I will repeat what I have been posting since November.

Mrs D and Balaji had an eye ball to eye ball spitting match over the Qatar bid. Balaji got to keep his toy but Mrs D vowed no more cash or time for it. Result is there is a continuing spat between the much younger brother and the older sister who brought him up and whom he hitherto adored.

This is all about power and face in a comfortably wealthy family with all the servants watching on.

In their world, Rovers don't matter. Rovers are a trinket they happen to be fighting about but the real prize is who triumphs in the battle of wills. The more stubborn Balaji is, the more Mrs D wrecks his toy for him.

[darrenrover]

True, but pre-Venkys this stat was 25,000 + for two years running.

Not the point I was trying to make Dan.

Consider those in the Championship, in that league table, where would we figure?

Realistically, I think at best, we'd get 8 to 10,000 season ticket holders if relegated.

[47er]

Anyway, I thought Mrs. Desai was the Chief Executive? Isn't Hunt just the Deputy Chief Executive? I too am very curious! Is there a date set?

I've asked this question twice--make it three times now! If they really meant to say Chief Executive then that's a meeting with Mrs Desai isn't it?

I suspect the meeting is with Paul Hunt. Can someone clear this up?

[Mercer]

Ok, I went and looked it up because of your last sentence. The last thing I ever want to be accused of is spreading false hope. Here are the audited financial statements for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2011. Highlights include turnover of 85,000,000,000 Rs. which according to average conversion rates over the last year is roughly £1,000,000,000, and 7,303,000,000 Rs in profit after tax, or roughly £100,000,000. So your opinion is factually incorrect. The confusion lies in the terms lakh and lac. Lac = 1m Rs; Lakh = 100k Rs. It is not a straightforward conversion, and I don't fault anyone for being uncertain about it.

With respect, I personally feel it is dishonest to make comments about being"almost certain" about something and then say it is not worth your time to look it up to actually be almost certain. I agree with you that it would be wrong to go to all this trouble without doing the research and putting in the work to make sure you had your numbers right and throwing this out there to get people's hopes up falsely. However, that is not the case here. I have done the work. Wayne forced me to go over it over and over again to make sure. I also think that you are off base in your assumption about how a legitimate global concern of this size would handle any exit strategy from an investment gone wrong, and charge that you are in fact, for lack of a more diplomatic term, fear mongering, and it isn't productive to what we are trying to achieve here, which is to develop a contingency for a worst case scenario. That worst case scenario, in my opinion and based on the facts and conditions I perceive from a business point of view, does not include a malicious attemp at asset stripping.

Dan, suggest you take another look.

1 Rs crore = 10m Rs

Adjusted PBT for y.e. Mar. 2011 = 104.52Rs crore

1,045,200,000.00 Rs = 13,476,020.76 (£13.5m) GBP at today's exchange rate of 0.012893.

http://money.rediff.com/companies/venkys-india-ltd/16540002/profit-and-loss

[BlueMonday]

Not the point I was trying to make Dan.

Consider those in the Championship, in that league table, where would we figure?

Realistically, I think at best, we'd get 8 to 10,000 season ticket holders if relegated.

Didn't we average about 21,000 last time we were in the Chumpionship. Remeber us having fairly decent gates any way and putting

to bed the Rovers v Burnley gates debate.

[chaddyrovers]

This is all anyone who has Rovers in their hearts needs to know:

brfcactiongroup @brfcactiongroup

MISSING PERSON(S) Mrs Anuradha Jitendra Desai , Mr Venkateshwar Banda Rao, Mr Balaji Banda Rao - PLEASE RT!!

I will repeat what I have been posting since November.

Mrs D and Balaji had an eye ball to eye ball spitting match over the Qatar bid. Balaji got to keep his toy but Mrs D vowed no more cash or time for it. Result is there is a continuing spat between the much younger brother and the older sister who brought him up and whom he hitherto adored.

This is all about power and face in a comfortably wealthy family with all the servants watching on.

In their world, Rovers don't matter. Rovers are a trinket they happen to be fighting about but the real prize is who triumphs in the battle of wills. The more stubborn Balaji is, the more Mrs D wrecks his toy for him.

Would Balaji be prepare to spend his own money on the club and not money from Venkys or Mrs D money???

Why is Mrs D not allow Balaji to invest money into the club???

is there any chance that Balaji could/will ever get to run the club his way and for him to own it himself away from Venkys???

Balaji is the mad football fan and he was the only person to take the time to meet and talk to the fans who went to Pune! I reckon he would invest in the team if he was the solo Owner. do people not agree???

[philipl]

Dan, suggest you take another look.

1 Rs crore = 10m Rs

Adjusted PBT for y.e. Mar. 2011 = 104.52Rs crore

1,045,200,000.00 Rs = 13,476,020.76 (£13.5m) GBP at today's exchange rate of 0.012893.

http://money.rediff.com/companies/venkys-india-ltd/16540002/profit-and-loss

The family only own 52% of that.

Would Balaji be prepare to spend his own money on the club and not money from Venkys or Mrs D money???

Why is Mrs D not allow Balaji to invest money into the club???

is there any chance that Balaji could/will ever get to run the club his way and for him to own it himself away from Venkys???

Balaji is the mad football fan and he was the only person to take the time to meet and talk to the fans who went to Pune! I reckon he would invest in the team if he was the solo Owner. do people not agree???

Balaji had the opportunity to do it solo but could not come up with anything remotely credible even for his own family.

There has to be a big question mark over whether Balaji would ever be allowed to use any of his alleged personal fortune in the UK. See hollowsr posts of about two weeks back.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329255270[/url]' post='1225927']

Anyone who operates in business would be very foolish not to consider a worst case scenario, however uncomfortable that may feel !!! In my view, it's a real risk, so will beg to differ.

What research have you done to arrive at a share issue of 10,000 willing participants and what sample size did you use ?

I think these are the two critical success factors - if either fail, the plan is a non starter.

Dan, I sincerely wish you and WW good luck, I think you are going to need it !

Over 2,000 responses to an online survey form set up by Wayne a couple of weeks ago. Statistically that is a pretty relevant sample size would you not agree?

In your worst case scenario there is no club left to save, so you really are saying that the contingecy plan should be to start up a new club in its place from scratch. I don't want to be rude, but based on the content of your last few posts, there seems to be a distinct apathy towards gaining the requisite knowledge (i.e. having better use of your time) to reach your opinions, it just seems like you are being negative for the sake of it? I mean with a few finger taps to verify my facts were correct, I completely dismantled the underlying assumptions you were using to base your opinion of how the Venkys would behave in that situation.

Do you have any further questions about the work done in the background before this was brought out into the open? I never claimed it was the finished article, and neither has Wayne. Quite the contrary. We knew we were going to get criticism and cynicism, and be challenged on our assumptions and everything else. We also are quite open to be corrected, and helped by people with different expertises. We wanted this to be a publicly evolving process, transparent on every level, and everyone of course is welcome and has every right to their opinion.

What does drag me down a bit is when people base their opinions on nothing of substance. You have to have your facts straight if you are going to make any prediction on future events. I agree that Venkys have acted incredibly weirdly, but without getting myself into trouble from the staff here, I don't believe they were acting alone, and received and followed some very bad advice that was not in their or the club's best interests, and that based on those initial months have been backpedalling ever since it was made clear what the consequences and outcomes of those actions would have financially - albeit without taking responsibilty and using their relatively generous wealth to fix what they'd done, which is their real true crime.

1329256608[/url]' post='1225933']

Dan, suggest you take another look.

1 Rs crore = 10m Rs

Adjusted PBT for y.e. Mar. 2011 = 104.52Rs crore

1,045,200,000.00 Rs = 13,476,020.76 (£13.5m) GBP at today's exchange rate of 0.012893.

http://money.rediff....profit-and-loss

Mercer, that is just Venkys Ltd India, just one of the companies in their Global VH Group concern. You stand corrected, again. Was there something wrong with the link I provided?

1329256301[/url]' post='1225931']

Not the point I was trying to make Dan.

Consider those in the Championship, in that league table, where would we figure?

Realistically, I think at best, we'd get 8 to 10,000 season ticket holders if relegated.

I think that depends on the ownership, the culture and atmosphere at the club, and of course the price of season and match day tickets. I don't think we would even get that many if Venkys and Kean are still at the helm.

[EwoodDawn]

Mrs D and Balaji had an eye ball to eye ball spitting match over the Qatar bid. Balaji got to keep his toy but Mrs D vowed no more cash or time for it. Result is there is a continuing spat between the much younger brother and the older sister who brought him up and whom he hitherto adored.

This is all about power and face in a comfortably wealthy family with all the servants watching on.

In their world, Rovers don't matter. Rovers are a trinket they happen to be fighting about but the real prize is who triumphs in the battle of wills. The more stubborn Balaji is, the more Mrs D wrecks his toy for him.

So how do we get this publicised on an international scale to right royally embarrass the pair of them - particularly to their important business contacts?

[chaddyrovers]

Balaji had the opportunity to do it solo but could not come up with anything remotely credible even for his own family.

There has to be a big question mark over whether Balaji would ever be allowed to use any of his alleged personal fortune in the UK. See hollowsr posts of about two weeks back.

didn't know that!

Philip, Do you think Venkys will sell in the summer whatever division we are in???

[47er]

Funny thing------Balaji has his toy, its floundering, he can't put money into it and he dare not even set foot on the ground to watch it!.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329257995[/url]' post='1225938']

The family only own 52% of that.

This is a valid point, but they are majority and controlling stakeholders all the same.

[Ricky]

Philip doesn't know that either. It's posted as fact but lets be honest there's no way Philip could know that. He wouldn't have been in Pune unless he's decided to take a new job as one of the Rao's servants.

The word from the Rao's is that there was no bid to turn down. I still can't see any reason why they would deny it. It's just as easy to say yes there was a bid but we don't want to sell.

[Mercer]

Over 2,000 responses to an online survey form set up by Wayne a couple of weeks ago. Statistically that is a pretty relevant sample size would you not agree?

In your worst case scenario there is no club left to save, so you really are saying that the contingecy plan should be to start up a new club in its place from scratch. I don't want to be rude, but based on the content of your last few posts, there seems to be a distinct apathy towards gaining the requisite knowledge (i.e. having better use of your time) to reach your opinions, it just seems like you are being negative for the sake of it? I mean with a few finger taps to verify my facts were correct, I completely dismantled the underlying assumptions you were using to base your opinion of how the Venkys would behave in that situation. - Really ? More bullsh1t than Kean !

Do you have any further questions about the work done in the background before this was brought out into the open? I never claimed it was the finished article, and neither has Wayne. Quite the contrary. We knew we were going to get criticism and cynicism, and be challenged on our assumptions and everything else. We also are quite open to be corrected, and helped by people with different expertises. We wanted this to be a publicly evolving process, transparent on every level, and everyone of course is welcome and has every right to their opinion.

What does drag me down a bit is when people base their opinions on nothing of substance. You have to have your facts straight if you are going to make any prediction on future events. I agree that Venkys have acted incredibly weirdly, but without getting myself into trouble from the staff here, I don't believe they were acting alone, and received and followed some very bad advice that was not in their or the club's best interests, and that based on those initial months have been backpedalling ever since it was made clear what the consequences and outcomes of those actions would have financially - albeit without taking responsibilty and using their relatively generous wealth to fix what they'd done, which is their real true crime.

Mercer, that is just Venkys Ltd India, just one of the companies in their Global VH Group concern. You stand corrected, again. Was there something wrong with the link I provided?

I think that depends on the ownership, the culture and atmosphere at the club, and of course the price of season and match day tickets. I don't think we would even get that many if Venkys and Kean are still at the helm.

Young man, if you had have looked more carefully, you would have seen that my link refers to the same set of accounts as yours (though presented slightly differently) and includes their main business segment of poultry !!!! So, can you provide links to accounts which show another £80m pa profit - thought not !

Wow, 2,000 responses to an online survey. If I was managing a share issue, I'd be petrified that only 20%, of a 'target' number, could be bothered to even register an interest. You can probably whittle that down to 200 who are both actually inclined and financially able.

Dan, if you are to make this 'live', you are going to face far more sterner challenges than mine - I'm merely superficially looking at your proposal and, to be honest, IMO, it simply is not credible.

[Sparky Marky]

Over 2,000 responses to an online survey form set up by Wayne a couple of weeks ago. Statistically that is a pretty relevant sample size would you not agree?

I think its one thing tapping yes to a question on a survey and another actually handing over a grand with no real tangible return. Trouble is, you will do a serious amount of work before you realise that rovers fans:

A. Don't have the coin

B. Don't have the appetite

C. Are very few in numbers compared to clubs around us

You seem to be buzzing with all this Dan.....you'd be bored with mid-table mediocrity wouldn't you..

[Fife Rover]

This is all anyone who has Rovers in their hearts needs to know:

brfcactiongroup @brfcactiongroup

MISSING PERSON(S) Mrs Anuradha Jitendra Desai , Mr Venkateshwar Banda Rao, Mr Balaji Banda Rao - PLEASE RT!!

I will repeat what I have been posting since November.

Mrs D and Balaji had an eye ball to eye ball spitting match over the Qatar bid. Balaji got to keep his toy but Mrs D vowed no more cash or time for it. Result is there is a continuing spat between the much younger brother and the older sister who brought him up and whom he hitherto adored.

This is all about power and face in a comfortably wealthy family with all the servants watching on.

In their world, Rovers don't matter. Rovers are a trinket they happen to be fighting about but the real prize is who triumphs in the battle of wills. The more stubborn Balaji is, the more Mrs D wrecks his toy for him.

And this is the behaviour of "Fit and Proper" owners????? If you can prove the truth of your assertions you should submit the evidence to the PL.

[PAFELL]

1/ - Agreed! Nobody wants to see the club relegated, and I for one would would love to see this all fade away as a bad memory starting with a hard fought blood and tears win at the Etihad stadium this week!

2/ - What other club do you see being sold for £23m in the Premiership? Would you or anyone else claim that the Club, even as it is now, as a Premier League Club, has not been significantly devalued in the ensuing period since the Venkys' takeover? Aside from Venkys wanting to gain back the exact price they paid - assuming they were willing to sell, they would never get that same valuation. There are a lot of things that go into valuation. If you are referring to Brighton, that is not a fair comparison. They may be in the Championship, but they have an owner who spent £93m of his own money to build them a new stadium and clear their bank debt. As of 2010 (I haven't seen their latest accounts) they still owed Tony Bloom the better part of £17m. That fact alone would make them more expensive, because for Bloom to sell he would most likely require that debt to be repaid. Not only that but they have a much denser population to draw on and the potential there is incredible. New stadium, free of of bank debt (but with plenty to the owner), large market, good manager, on the up and up, etc. It's not an apples to apples comparison.

3/ Fair enough statement, you are very entitled to that opinion!

4/ Again, fair enough, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Nobody can say for sure what that situation is until one talks to the bank.

5/ I answered this question in the post you quoted. Is there some reason you didn't acknowledge that?

6/ Are you referring to something in particular? The setting up of the supporters' organization (already exists)? Or of the handling of the fund itself (escrow accounts held in suspension is really common)?

I fully accept that you don't see the plan as feasible due to not accepting that point 1 is a 60/40 (3 from 5) scenario right now, and point 2 as your personal opinion, and I agree it is a difficult goal to reach. I personally believe, having looked at the scenario from all angles, that 3 is possible depending on what the accounts look like at the end of this season, and Venkys attitude towards the Club. Point 4 neither you nor I can effectively argue more than anecdotally. However, I feel the your last two points have no basis and are just there to make your list longer, respectfully.

I actually believe that this sort of arrangement is actually more feasible for a professional club, because it allows for building a budget around existing sources of turnover, not dependent upon recurring injections of capital that would be required at a club with no other sources of income.

Anyway, PAFELL, as said I fully respect your views! Maybe I am being way off base and overly optimistic, and I know that having objectivity in such a matter that lies so close to the heart is very difficult either way. But I think we need some sort of optimism around here, that if the worst happens we could find a way out that gives us a club to support!

Yes I was refering to brighton. Tony Bloom did give brighton an interest free loan for the new stadium. But that loan does not have to be paid until about 2023. Things have gone so well, that they are seeking planning permission to increase the capacity by 8000. This to be ready by next season. They already have 3000 on the waiting list for season tickets. I believe they have paid a Hugh chunk of what they owe, Tony Bloom. Brighton maybe a bad comparison to rovers. But there are not many other championship clubs that could be bought for 10mill. The reality is a lot of supporters are getting delusioned with the premier league. Many brighton supporters are from London. 65 miles away, 2 hours by train. Many not prepared to pay for prem tickets at Arsenal, chelsea etc. So because of economic reasons have adopted another club for their football fix.

Rovers have the cheapest season tickets in the prem. But do not sell out, even pre-venky days.

So where you think you will find 10,000 fans from to get money from is beyond me. Many football supporters, even in blackburn, support other clubs, instead of rovers. But the club would still not be sold for 10mill.

Even if by chance you raise 10mill from fans. The seats in the ground would be empty. Because many fans could not do both. Pay £1000 and attend matches.

[Miker]

Daniel, according to your research what would you expect our operating loss to be by the end of the season (before and after player trading) and what figures would you expect our debt to be at?