[Archived] Venky's willing to sell?

[Paul]

That is not saying that people are sheep by any means, but the group mentality is strong in social beings such as ourselves!

I'm only quoting this so I can easily find it again. It's th3 most diplomatic way of saying people are sheep I've come across. Quite brilliant!!

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329260345[/url]' post='1225949']

I think its one thing tapping yes to a question on a survey and another actually handing over a grand with no real tangible return. Trouble is, you will do a serious amount of work before you realise that rovers fans:

A. Don't have the coin

B. Don't have the appetite

C. Are very few in numbers compared to clubs around us

You seem to be buzzing with all this Dan.....you'd be bored with mid-table mediocrity wouldn't you..

Absolutely not! I would love that!

Listen, I know that an online survey, which was barely even advertised by a couple of tweets, and the original fund's website and only collected data for little more than a week, is not a wide cross section of the actual support out there. But you have to start somewhere right?

Edit: Just wanted to add that it was not a simple yes/no survey. I linked to the new one on Monday in this thread. It has an almost identical format. We are still collecting data, so I encourage you to go and fill it out! Also, somebody has to show some enthusiasm around here, right?

[Paul]

I've asked this question twice--make it three times now! If they really meant to say Chief Executive then that's a meeting with Mrs Desai isn't it?

I suspect the meeting is with Paul Hunt. Can someone clear this up?

I think the meeting is with Paul Hunt and the original statement was incorrect by through calling him Chief Executive. Nothing more than a slip if the keyboard

As far as I can see no date has been publicised on the BRAG website.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

1329260178[/url]' post='1225948']

Young man, if you had have looked more carefully, you would have seen that my link refers to the same set of accounts as yours (though presented slightly differently) and includes their main business segment of poultry !!!! So, can you provide links to accounts which show another £80m pa profit - thought not !

Indeed, there seems to be an inconsistency here. I apologize for not looking more carefully at your source before making my response. It was late (I am GMT+1) I was exhausted, and I just wanted to go to bed.

Seems to me that one of these sources must be wrong. I think you and I can both agree on the following:

1 Lakh = 100k

1 Lac = 1 million

1 Crore = 10 million

The Economic Times of India - very well respected - is showing roughly £10m PAT at 2011-03-31.

The official audited financial statements, filed with regulatory agencies, published on their website for shareholders and investors, etc. - is showing £100m PAT for the same period.

The same newspaper, when running their story on the Venkys ownership of Blackburn Rovers, reports £100m PAT on £1,000m in turnover.

Numerous other sources are also referencing the £100m PAT number.

I think it is a fair assumption that journalistic sources, if they are responsible, would use the the most original source of information they can get, which would be the actual audited accounts. Someone seems to have gotten their decimal place wrong, as you suggested earlier. Or there is some nuance in the conversion that neither you or I understand properly.

If you are correct, I raise my hands up and take back everything I wrote in regards to this, and admit I was wrong. But, I don't think I am. Given the size and number of subsidiaries in operation alone, (it is a LOT, if you go to look at their website) I would find it very hard to believe that the global concern only did £10m PAT in 2011.

[Athlete]

I think its one thing tapping yes to a question on a survey and another actually handing over a grand with no real tangible return. Trouble is, you will do a serious amount of work before you realise that rovers fans:

A. Don't have the coin

B. Don't have the appetite

C. Are very few in numbers compared to clubs around us

You seem to be buzzing with all this Dan.....you'd be bored with mid-table mediocrity wouldn't you..

think certain people are not realising that there is no way 10,000 are going to stump up a grand plus fork out for tickets people in Blackburn just don't have that kind of spare money around and if they did it would be spent wisely on other things , also we dont have the fan base out of the town to get the 10,000 people to cougth up !

[Andy]

think certain people are not realising that there is no way 10,000 are going to stump up a grand plus fork out for tickets people in Blackburn just don't have that kind of spare money around and if they did it would be spent wisely on other things , also we dont have the fan base out of the town to get the 10,000 people to cougth up !

Agreed.

I think I've said it a couple of times on here now, but there is no way that you will ever get £1k each from 10,000 Rovers fans.

At least 75% of Rovers fans have more important things to spend that money on (family, mortgage, etc) and would find it irresponsible to be wasting that amount of money on a football project.

[ABBEY]

what would happen to the share owners if (only thinkng outloud) for example if rovers got a rangers style tax bill? would the bailiffs be round at everyones home? or am i being daft?

[BiggusLaddus]

Seems to me that one of these sources must be wrong. I think you and I can both agree on the following:

1 Lakh = 100k

1 Lac = 1 million

1 Crore = 10 million

That is the part that is in question. The original accounts (pdf's on mercerman's link aswell as yours) show 85,000 lacs rupees.

The confusion seems to be whether there is any difference between 1 lac and 1 lakh. I've seen a few online sources that have it as you do (10lakh = 1lac = 1000000) but several others saying that they are both the same thing (100000).

[donnermeat]

I don't know how Daniel has the energy to fight this many fires on this thread.

[PAFELL]

what would happen to the share owners if (only thinkng outloud) for example if rovers got a rangers style tax bill? would the bailiffs be round at everyones home? or am i being daft?

Limited company so would not happen - I hope

[chromesub]

Dan,

I can confirm the general usage in India treats 1 Lakh = 1 Lac = 100 K

And 1 crore = 100 lacs = 10 million.

so 85K lacs rs would be 100 million pounds. Actually 110 million or so

[Miker]

The main problems with the proposal as it stands are the "only 2 years in the Championship" bit and the likely difficulty in getting enough people to put in. As Dave said however, this should be seen as a starting point, not a take it or leave it proposal. In the absence of any real alternatives at this point, surely our best chance of moving forward is to explore how this proposal can be improved upon rather than throwing our hands up in the air and saying it won't work and that trying to save the club is just "wasting everyone's time".

I read the proposal and as I said, it is a great concept, great attempt to do something genuine for the club, but it makes way too many assumptions and requires things to happen that are highly unlikely. The only foreseeable alternative was a part ownership in the club with Venky's where fan representatives could act in an advisory/ambassadorial manner with someone being on the board of directors as well. This seemed like a distant possibility given they extended lines of communication to certain fans such as the Fans Forum and the two Ians, but I fear that chance, if any, has now gone.

We now find ourselves in the awkward situation of having absolutely ZERO communication with the owners and therefore not knowing what our future holds. I suspect we can't even talk to them about chickens. The question is: what were their reasons for buying the club? can they still achieve their original ambitions? how can they achieve them? is selling or asset stripping the club a possibility given the massive PR disaster they would face that would impact their brand globally?

[PAFELL]

I read the proposal and as I said, it is a great concept, great attempt to do something genuine for the club, but it makes way too many assumptions and requires things to happen that are highly unlikely. The only foreseeable alternative was a part ownership in the club with Venky's where fan representatives could act in an advisory/ambassadorial manner with someone being on the board of directors as well. This seemed like a distant possibility given they extended lines of communication to certain fans such as the Fans Forum and the two Ians, but I fear that chance, if any, has now gone.

We now find ourselves in the awkward situation of having absolutely ZERO communication with the owners and therefore not knowing what our future holds. I suspect we can't even talk to them about chickens. The question is: what were their reasons for buying the club? can they still achieve their original ambitions? how can they achieve them? is selling or asset stripping the club a possibility given the massive PR disaster they would face that would impact their brand globally?

Venkys culture in my opinion means they will not allow themselves to be dictated to. Which is why they have not and will not take any notice of any protests. As an example, one aim of the protests were communication form venkys.

For awhile, venkys were communicating - ok coming out with stupid comments, but communicating all the same. Then when the protest organisors mentioned they wanted communication from venkys. Venkys stopped all together.

They will do things their way, it is their nature. This is obvious for awhile. Another reason why this proposal from Daniel, Wild and BRAG will fall down. If venkys wanted to sell the club. The last people they would consider selling too, is anybody, group or individual who has protested against them. Again their nature.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

That is the part that is in question. The original accounts (pdf's on mercerman's link aswell as yours) show 85,000 lacs rupees.

The confusion seems to be whether there is any difference between 1 lac and 1 lakh. I've seen a few online sources that have it as you do (10lakh = 1lac = 1000000) but several others saying that they are both the same thing (100000).

Dan,

I can confirm the general usage in India treats 1 Lakh = 1 Lac = 100 K

Thanks for the info, guys! The thing is, it IS confusing - the first few resources I used have exactly as you say, BiggusLaddus. But if you spend a few more minutes looking around, you see that chromesub's viewpoint is also represented almost on an equal basis. The thing that puts me over the edge is the presentation of the audited statements I linked to. In those statements, the Balance Sheet is actually presented in Lakh, while the P&L Statement is presented in Lac. That to me suggests they are using a different scale for the two, if they purposely use different spelling. Maybe there is a difference in the vernacular and formal usages of the terms? As said it is very confusing...

Edit: This also seems like a side show at this point in my opinion, regardless of who is right. £100m or £10m in annual profit is a huge difference, massive! But it is also an annual number, not a cumulative one. It seems like this is now old ground we covering that I missed when it originally was discussed. Don't know what the general consensus was then, but this is actually secondary to the underlying assumptions, because I have looked it up now, and it does appear that Venkys purchased the Club on the back of a debt issuance so didn't actually use their own cash purchase the Club - therefore they more than likely do have more debt in the UK than that which sits on Rovers accounts.

Depending on who that debt is owed to, it could be a factor in all the Barclays demands rumors we've been hearing this winter. It may also have an effect on any purchase price they would be looking to get if they did decide to get out, even though that debt has nothing to do with the actual value of the Club to any potential buyer, in much the same way as if you were upside down on a car loan, and couldn't sell it for what you owed, you'd have to take that loss on the difference.

[Miker]

Venkys culture in my opinion means they will not allow themselves to be dictated to. Which is why they have not and will not take any notice of any protests. As an example, one aim of the protests were communication form venkys.

For awhile, venkys were communicating - ok coming out with stupid comments, but communicating all the same. Then when the protest organisors mentioned they wanted communication from venkys. Venkys stopped all together.

They will do things their way, it is their nature. This is obvious for awhile. Another reason why this proposal from Daniel, Wild and BRAG will fall down. If venkys wanted to sell the club. The last people they would consider selling too, is anybody, group or individual who has protested against them. Again their nature.

The important thing for me is that the Rao family was communicating DIRECTLY with fans (Fans Forum and the two Ians), but this has now stopped.

The mistake for me is that people thought that the chance to open dialogue with them was a chance to dictate to them what they should do. Authority is important at any business and this authority was already being undermined by stories of their incompetency, to allow fans to dictate business matters would be even worse. I can't imagine the CEO of any business being happy to allow that to happen, so Mrs D has rightly grabbed the bull by the horns and is now showing that she's the boss. In my view, she has to regain respect and authority before anything else happens. They won't sell.

[gumboots]

The important thing for me is that the Rao family was communicating DIRECTLY with fans (Fans Forum and the two Ians), but this has now stopped.

The mistake for me is that people thought that the chance to open dialogue with them was a chance to dictate to them what they should do. Authority is important at any business and this authority was already being undermined by stories of their incompetency, to allow fans to dictate business matters would be even worse. I can't imagine the CEO of any business being happy to allow that to happen, so Mrs D has rightly grabbed the bull by the horns and is now showing that she's the boss. In my view, she has to regain respect and authority before anything else happens. They won't sell.

And while she refuses to do the things that will gain her respect, like hire a decent CEO and let him and the board get on with running things here, appoint a decent manager and let him run the team answering to the board, etc then she will get nothing but contempt from fans. So we are at stand off and I don't see fans gving in either - they'll just not bother to attend.

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

And while she refuses to do the things that will gain her respect, like hire a decent CEO and let him and the board get on eith running things here, appoint a decent manager and let him run the team answering to the board, etc then she will get nothing but contempt from fans. so we are at stand off and i don't see fans gving ineither - they'll just not bother to attend.

Very good point, Gumboots - the whole club will lose in this situation, as declining turnover from merchandising, commercial income and match attendance starts to have a much higher proportional effect in the Championship than it does in the Premiership. It really compounds the problem exponentially down in the lower leagues. People have been pointing to attendances and such as well, and it is a valid point, and another reason why I think people hope that Venkys continued silence could be a sign of background maneuvering into some kind of exit strategy.

[den]

The important thing for me is that the Rao family was communicating DIRECTLY with fans (Fans Forum and the two Ians), but this has now stopped.

The mistake for me is that people thought that the chance to open dialogue with them was a chance to dictate to them what they should do. Authority is important at any business and this authority was already being undermined by stories of their incompetency, to allow fans to dictate business matters would be even worse. I can't imagine the CEO of any business being happy to allow that to happen, so Mrs D has rightly grabbed the bull by the horns and is now showing that she's the boss. In my view, she has to regain respect and authority before anything else happens. They won't sell.

She's showing she's the boss - how - by sulking back in Pune and running the club into the ground?

If she was a real boss Miker, she would have listened to JW and TF from the very beginning, but no the truth is that the Raos are the biggest threat to this clubs existence since it was founded.

But hey, it's all the fans fault for saying so.

[Mattyblue]

'grabbed the bull by the horns' by ignoring their customers, by removing the highly accomplished board, by holding on to Kean, by refusing to talk to the media, by letting an established PL club drift alarmingly towards relegation twice in 12 months.

Christ, if this is her 'taking the bull by the horns', I'd hate to see them take a laissez-faire approach.

[47er]

The important thing for me is that the Rao family was communicating DIRECTLY with fans (Fans Forum and the two Ians), but this has now stopped.

The mistake for me is that people thought that the chance to open dialogue with them was a chance to dictate to them what they should do. Authority is important at any business and this authority was already being undermined by stories of their incompetency, to allow fans to dictate business matters would be even worse. I can't imagine the CEO of any business being happy to allow that to happen, so Mrs D has rightly grabbed the bull by the horns and is now showing that she's the boss. In my view, she has to regain respect and authority before anything else happens. They won't sell.

Carry on like this and you'll be the next manager.

[Miker]

She's showing she's the boss - how - by sulking back in Pune and running the club into the ground?

If she was a real boss Miker, she would have listened to JW and TF from the very beginning, but no the truth is that the Raos are the biggest threat to this clubs existence since it was founded.

But hey, it's all the fans fault for saying so.

Have you ever dealt with a CEO at a large company in a professional setting? They listen, but I have never known them to be dictated to and if they want to do something their way they will do it, every time.

Who said it's the fans' fault for saying so? I'm not even sure what you're referring to?

[Mercer]

Indeed, there seems to be an inconsistency here. I apologize for not looking more carefully at your source before making my response. It was late (I am GMT+1) I was exhausted, and I just wanted to go to bed.

Seems to me that one of these sources must be wrong. I think you and I can both agree on the following:

1 Lakh = 100k

1 Lac = 1 million

1 Crore = 10 million

The Economic Times of India - very well respected - is showing roughly £10m PAT at 2011-03-31.

The official audited financial statements, filed with regulatory agencies, published on their website for shareholders and investors, etc. - is showing £100m PAT for the same period.

The same newspaper, when running their story on the Venkys ownership of Blackburn Rovers, reports £100m PAT on £1,000m in turnover.

Numerous other sources are also referencing the £100m PAT number.

I think it is a fair assumption that journalistic sources, if they are responsible, would use the the most original source of information they can get, which would be the actual audited accounts. Someone seems to have gotten their decimal place wrong, as you suggested earlier. Or there is some nuance in the conversion that neither you or I understand properly.

If you are correct, I raise my hands up and take back everything I wrote in regards to this, and admit I was wrong. But, I don't think I am. Given the size and number of subsidiaries in operation alone, (it is a LOT, if you go to look at their website) I would find it very hard to believe that the global concern only did £10m PAT in 2011.

Dan - to help clarify, if you look at business related organisations in India eg, Economic Times, Equity Bulls, Hindu Business Line, they all report financials, including those for Venky's, in Rs crores. There is no way three 'distinguished' bodies would get it wrong. The only explanation I can offer is the the audited accounts have been labelled incorrectly as Lacs when in fact they are Lakhs. I know that fact is quite startling but I believe it's correct !

You are a 'Finance man' and will know that the credibility of any piece of work is dependent upon getting the 'basics' right.

If you look at their Adjusted PAT for (Rs crores) over the last 5 years it goes 70, 52, 18, 24 & 10. As Philipl said, their share of this is 52% which means they have broadly 'earned' £11m over 5 years. This is why, IMO, they are not going to walk away from £23m+, come hell or high water, they will want that back.

[roversmum]

Have you ever dealt with a CEO at a large company in a professional setting? They listen, but I have never known them to be dictated to and if they want to do something their way they will do it, every time.

Who said it's the fans' fault for saying so? I'm not even sure what you're referring to?

Exactly. Presenting them with ideas is one thing, but following it with a list of their mistakes, criticisms and swearing at them will achieve absolutely nothing. If I had been called some of the names being banded about I wouldn't even bother to listen. Definitely not the way to go.

Den's last remark is tongue in cheek, Miker

[yoda]

The important thing for me is that the Rao family was communicating DIRECTLY with fans (Fans Forum and the two Ians), but this has now stopped.

The mistake for me is that people thought that the chance to open dialogue with them was a chance to dictate to them what they should do. Authority is important at any business and this authority was already being undermined by stories of their incompetency, to allow fans to dictate business matters would be even worse. I can't imagine the CEO of any business being happy to allow that to happen, so Mrs D has rightly grabbed the bull by the horns and is now showing that she's the boss. In my view, she has to regain respect and authority before anything else happens. They won't sell.

Authority being undermined!

well they reinforced that belife with their actions.

No competant CEO would dispense with the services of recognised experts in the field on the recomendation of someone who was to make money out of it and then replace them with rank amatuers.

Furthermore no competant CEO would allow a business to drift into the abiss withot taking action.

How is she going to regain respect if we are relegated and from who is this respect going to come from, certainly not the stake holders

[Mattyblue]

Exactly. Presenting them with ideas is one thing, but following it with a list of their mistakes, criticisms and swearing at them will achieve absolutely nothing. If I had been called some of the names being banded about I wouldn't even bother to listen. Definitely not the way to go.

Den's last remark is tongue in cheek, Miker

Then they are in the wrong business. English football fans/media and Indian business culture are polar opposites, and if Desai is after deference, she won't find it.