[Archived] Venky's Ownership Under Scrutiny In Indian Press

[Wiggy]

What did you threaten Balaji with during the HT interval at Wigan? Not a good leathering with Tash's bag of conkers was it? Whatever it was it must have sh1t him up big time cos nobodies seen hide nor hair of any of em since.

Ha ha ha Drog!

All I offered was a couple of solutions.

Please don't give the wrong impression of events!

[Kelbo]

Am I right in thinking that if a club misses paying a player they have the right to walk away, on the basis the club is in breach of contract?

That is correct, the PFA would pay in some circumstances but the letter of the law is this, if a player is not paid his wages, the contract becomes null and void.

[PAFELL]

That is correct, the PFA would pay in some circumstances but the letter of the law is this, if a player is not paid his wages, the contract becomes null and void.

Also fines if they are not paid for 3 consecutive months.

Just a thought if the loans are secured against rovers assets. Then the loans are not paid. The bank then seize these assets in payment for the loans. This would then allow the BANK to sell those assets to who they want, so as to recover their money.

[47er]

Is it worth buying a small amount of Venkys shares simply to go along to the shareholders meeting and hammer Mrs D? Fans in the region obviously but some might make the journey and fit in a holiday or something.

[Mercer]

Also fines if they are not paid for 3 consecutive months.

Just a thought if the loans are secured against rovers assets. Then the loans are not paid. The bank then seize these assets in payment for the loans. This would then allow the BANK to sell those assets to who they want, so as to recover their money.

Kelbo is right about the impact of not paying players' wages.

Pafnell - not that simple. Any mortgagee in possession has a legal duty and responsibility to other creditors to realise assets at their optimum price.

There is a lot of noise (speculation) that the wolves are gathering and the vultures are hovering. For the faint hearted, Twitter should be avoided. Rovers' inactivity this window, despite Kean's comments about doing business early, does nothing to dispel the speculation.

[patrickvalery]

That is correct, the PFA would pay in some circumstances but the letter of the law is this, if a player is not paid his wages, the contract becomes null and void.

I thought it was 90 days. Not that it matters. Any premier league club should have no excuse for not coughing up.

[roverwhelmed]

Something we were all praying for last season. Funny how things change.

I don't want them to stay silent whilst Rovers go to the wall. But I don't want them to speak either, because all they spout is giberish (to me) which doesn't answer the questions we seek answers to and is woolly and meaningless.

Can't win.

[PAFELL]

Kelbo is right about the impact of not paying players' wages.

Pafnell - not that simple. Any mortgagee in possession has a legal duty and responsibility to other creditors to realise assets at their optimum price.

There is a lot of noise (speculation) that the wolves are gathering and the vultures are hovering. For the faint hearted, Twitter should be avoided. Rovers' inactivity this window, despite Kean's comments about doing business early, does nothing to dispel the speculation.

I am aware of the wolves on twitter. Not one of those has produced any evidence of a meltdown.

Yes the bank would have a duty to make sure those owed are paid. But to do so would they not sell the assets that had been secured against the debts, in order to raise that money and pay those owed.

[Pelio]

I was in Bangalore last week for a short business trip, (just before this story broke in the Economic Times) and the few days there reminded me of why we're in big trouble.

As mentioned before by others on here, losing face personally or in business is something they avoid at all costs. From years of experience in dealing with various people in India, they seem very good at telling you 'what they want you to hear', but invariably it always lacks substance and any kind of structure. Yes, there are good companies in India, but there are also companies where you're left wondering how do they actually run properly? Heirachy there is vitally important, and usually you cannot tell the top brass how to do things for the better. They may listen, participate in training or meetings etc but always seem to revert back to type, because 'that's how it's always been done'. The issue for Rovers is that they didn't have a clue in the first place when they took over, and so far all they seem to give us is unrealistic pipedreams and broken promises...

Of course, this kind of culture could happen anywhere in the world, but this is just a reflection of how Venkys come accross. They have no experience in this area of business, the whole ownership of a Premiership football club is just simply too big for them and they simply can't cope. To me, they don't seem to have learnt anything since buying the club and that they would rather bury their heads in the sand rather face up to the challenges and communicate to us effectively what their plans are. The recent accounts also prove to me they've failed (not that they'll ever admit it), and they have no interest in investing 'in their baby'. So we're left asking 'why don't they just put the club up for sale and disappear'?

I think the answer is simple, they just don't want to admit failure. For their close circle of friends and business acquaintances, it would be of great embarrassment to them to do this, but for the rest of India - I doubt very much if they've even heard of Blackburn Rovers, let alone knowing Venkys/ Mrs Desai / Rao's own us. Which is why to us, the supporters, it makes the whole situation we're in so bizarre.. But then, it seems we're dealing with a bizarre family whom we can't trust and or have any confidence in... Whilst they continue to be owners of our club, we'll always have uncertainty and rumour, they won't change, they will never communicate with us effectively and this is why our future can only be described with a very large '?'. Even if we survive relegation this year (and I hope we do), we're on a downward spiral to nothing purely because of the ownership trying to run a Premiership Football Club the same as a Chicken farm, and not learning fast enough to change it. It's utter madness with horrific consequences in my view...

[PAFELL]

I was in Bangalore last week for a short business trip, (just before this story broke in the Economic Times) and the few days there reminded me of why we're in big trouble.

As mentioned before by others on here, losing face personally or in business is something they avoid at all costs. From years of experience in dealing with various people in India, they seem very good at telling you 'what they want you to hear', but invariably it always lacks substance and any kind of structure. Yes, there are good companies in India, but there are also companies where you're left wondering how do they actually run properly? Heirachy there is vitally important, and usually you cannot tell the top brass how to do things for the better. They may listen, participate in training or meetings etc but always seem to revert back to type, because 'that's how it's always been done'. The issue for Rovers is that they didn't have a clue in the first place when they took over, and so far all they seem to give us is unrealistic pipedreams and broken promises...

Of course, this kind of culture could happen anywhere in the world, but this is just a reflection of how Venkys come accross. They have no experience in this area of business, the whole ownership of a Premiership football club is just simply too big for them and they simply can't cope. To me, they don't seem to have learnt anything since buying the club and that they would rather bury their heads in the sand rather face up to the challenges and communicate to us effectively what their plans are. The recent accounts also prove to me they've failed (not that they'll ever admit it), and they have no interest in investing 'in their baby'. So we're left asking 'why don't they just put the club up for sale and disappear'?

I think the answer is simple, they just don't want to admit failure. For their close circle of friends and business acquaintances, it would be of great embarrassment to them to do this, but for the rest of India - I doubt very much if they've even heard of Blackburn Rovers, let alone knowing Venkys/ Mrs Desai / Rao's own us. Which is why to us, the supporters, it makes the whole situation we're in so bizarre.. But then, it seems we're dealing with a bizarre family whom we can't trust and or have any confidence in... Whilst they continue to be owners of our club, we'll always have uncertainty and rumour, they won't change, they will never communicate with us effectively and this is why our future can only be described with a very large '?'. Even if we survive relegation this year (and I hope we do), we're on a downward spiral to nothing purely because of the ownership trying to run a Premiership Football Club the same as a Chicken farm, and not learning fast enough to change it. It's utter madness with horrific consequences in my view...

Good post. In the end venkys will lose whatever money they put in at the time of the takeover. I think eventually the BANK will force venkys to let the club go.

[Speedie Dived]

I am aware of the wolves on twitter. Not one of those has produced any evidence of a meltdown.

Yes the bank would have a duty to make sure those owed are paid. But to do so would they not sell the assets that had been secured against the debts, in order to raise that money and pay those owed.

Debt has increased to £26 million, and we have just declared an operating loss of £18.6 million. We cannot buy, sorry, loan unless we ship someone out. How much more evidence do you want?

You are not going to get a statement saying "We are in meltdown". It's staring us in the face.

[Fife Rover]

If what Pelio says is true and that is the norm in Indian companies, then it is surely time for the PL to investigate, and for as much pressure as possible to be brought to bear on them to do so. We should be lobbying the media and our high profile fans to lean on the PL to explain just how do they continue to regard Venkys to meet the "Fit and Proper" requirement.

If this results in us being placed in administration, then so be it............It will at least force Venkys to sell up and get out fast, then hopefully we will be bought by a genuinely "Fit and Proper" owner and we can look forward once again to getting back to a clean and proper football club that we can ALL truly get behind.

[PAFELL]

If what Pelio says is true and that is the norm in Indian companies, then it is surely time for the PL to investigate, and for as much pressure as possible to be brought to bear on them to do so. We should be lobbying the media and our high profile fans to lean on the PL to explain just how do they continue to regard Venkys to meet the "Fit and Proper" requirement.

Totally agree. Plus Mrs D under investigation on other matters in India.

[Pelio]

I must say again that it's just my experience of some people/ companies there - not wishing to tarnish every Indian company out there with the same brush... Still, I guess from what I've said - the evidence is there for people to make their own minds up.

Just out of interest, does anyone really know the details of this 'Fit and Proper' requirement? For instance, surely when purchasing a football club, you should commit to investing in the club and not saddling it with debt which cannot be managed properly? It may be okay to say our business turnover is 'X' and we have funds available - but unless there's a business model in which you invest and ensure works - it means nothing and results in failure. Isn't that why it was introduced in the first place - to stop clubs ending up like Pompey?

If it is, someone needs to act now! The Premier League, together with Barclays, need to fully expose the nightmare at Ewood and take action.

If not, what's the point in it?? Surely any tin pot owner who's done well over the years can pass the requirement!

[Paul]

If not, what's the point in it?? Surely any tin pot owner who's done well over the years can pass the requirement!

I think you'll find the PL has had it's fair share of tin pot owners already.

Fit and proper is wide open to interpretation and means something entirely different to fans as it does to the PL.

[Pelio]

I think you'll find the PL has had it's fair share of tin pot owners already.

Fit and proper is wide open to interpretation and means something entirely different to fans as it does to the PL.

Hence my question really. Its so open to interpretation that no one knows what it actually means.

I agree there are many owners out there with little to rub together but this 'Fit and Proper' test came in say 2 years ago (I'm guessing), and Mrs Desai must have been one of the first to go through it being new perspective owners.

Surely if our worst fears come true from the reports and accounts we see - surely it makes a mockery of the whole system?

[krypton1980]

The current "fit and proper persons" test came into force in May 2009 ( the old one started in 2004 ).

Premiership clubs to have recieved new owners since then are:

Arsenal

Birmingham City

Blackburn Rovers

Liverpool

Portsmouth

QPR

Sunderland

West Ham United

Premier League fit and proper person test – disqualifying events in full:

A person shall be disqualified from acting as a director and no club shall be permitted to have any person acting as a director of that club if:

• Either directly or indirectly he is involved in or has any power to determine or influence the management or administration of another club or Football League club
  
• Either directly or indirectly he holds or acquires any Significant Interest in a club while he either directly or indirectly holds any interest in any class of shares of another club
  
• He becomes prohibited by law from being a director
  
• He is convicted on indictment of an offence set out in the Appendix 12 Schedule of Offences or he is convicted of a like offence by a competent court having jurisdiction outside England and Wales
  
• He makes an Individual Voluntary Arrangement or becomes the subject of an Interim Bankruptcy Restriction Order, a Bankruptcy Restriction Order or a Bankruptcy Order
  
• He is a director of a club which, while he has been a director of it, has suffered two or more unconnected events of insolvency
  
• He has been a director of two or more clubs or clubs each of which, while he has been a director of them, has suffered an Event of Insolvency.
  

Schedule of offences:

• Conspiracy to defraud: Criminal Justice Act 1987, section 12
  
• Conspiracy to defraud: Common Law
  
• Corrupt transactions with (public) agents, corruptly accepting consideration: Prevention of Corruption Act 1906, section 1
  
• Insider dealing: Criminal Justice Act 1993, sections 52 and 61
  
• Public servant soliciting or accepting a gift: Public Bodies (Corrupt Practices) Act 1889, section 1
  
• Theft: Theft Act 1968, section 1
  
• Obtaining by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15
  
• Obtaining a money transfer by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15A + B
  
• Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 16
  
• False accounting: Theft Act 1968, section 17
  
• False statements by Company Directors: Theft Act 1968, section 19
  
• Suppression of (company) documents: Theft Act 1968, section 20
  
• Retaining a wrongful credit: Theft Act 1968, section 24A
  
• Obtaining services by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 1
  
• Evasion of liability by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 2
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994 section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined) : Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument : Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/ Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994, section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined): Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  

[sentient]

Don't expect the premier league, FA, football league, media, or even the legal system to come to our rescue. They are all feeding at the trough and they wont stop until the feedstuff dries up. Plenty people on here upset with events but still pumping their cash into the machine. wtf do you expect to happen? the only way this system will change is when the fuel dries up! stop your sky subs now! sky=big club dominance forever. don't do it.

[Paul]

Hence my question really. Its so open to interpretation that no one knows what it actually means.

I agree there are many owners out there with little to rub together but this 'Fit and Proper' test came in say 2 years ago (I'm guessing), and Mrs Desai must have been one of the first to go through it being new perspective owners.

Surely if our worst fears come true from the reports and accounts we see - surely it makes a mockery of the whole system?

It looks to me as though krypton's post nicely explains why the fit and proper test is nonsense, though it appears not to apply to women!

As for making a mockery of things that's nothing new. The entire PL has been a shambles for years run by incompetent greedy men.

[Majiball]

It looks to me as though krypton's post nicely explains why the fit and proper test is nonsense, though it appears not to apply to women!

As for making a mockery of things that's nothing new. The entire PL has been a shambles for years run by incompetent greedy men.

Makes you wonder how people pass the fit and proper test.

Are you fit and proper?

Oh yes I am (slids package across table)

So you are sir, so you are!

[Pelio]

The current "fit and proper persons" test came into force in May 2009 ( the old one started in 2004 ).

Premiership clubs to have recieved new owners since then are:

Arsenal

Birmingham City

Blackburn Rovers

Liverpool

Portsmouth

QPR

Sunderland

West Ham United

Premier League fit and proper person test – disqualifying events in full:

A person shall be disqualified from acting as a director and no club shall be permitted to have any person acting as a director of that club if:

• Either directly or indirectly he is involved in or has any power to determine or influence the management or administration of another club or Football League club
  
• Either directly or indirectly he holds or acquires any Significant Interest in a club while he either directly or indirectly holds any interest in any class of shares of another club
  
• He becomes prohibited by law from being a director
  
• He is convicted on indictment of an offence set out in the Appendix 12 Schedule of Offences or he is convicted of a like offence by a competent court having jurisdiction outside England and Wales
  
• He makes an Individual Voluntary Arrangement or becomes the subject of an Interim Bankruptcy Restriction Order, a Bankruptcy Restriction Order or a Bankruptcy Order
  
• He is a director of a club which, while he has been a director of it, has suffered two or more unconnected events of insolvency
  
• He has been a director of two or more clubs or clubs each of which, while he has been a director of them, has suffered an Event of Insolvency.
  

Schedule of offences:

• Conspiracy to defraud: Criminal Justice Act 1987, section 12
  
• Conspiracy to defraud: Common Law
  
• Corrupt transactions with (public) agents, corruptly accepting consideration: Prevention of Corruption Act 1906, section 1
  
• Insider dealing: Criminal Justice Act 1993, sections 52 and 61
  
• Public servant soliciting or accepting a gift: Public Bodies (Corrupt Practices) Act 1889, section 1
  
• Theft: Theft Act 1968, section 1
  
• Obtaining by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15
  
• Obtaining a money transfer by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15A + B
  
• Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 16
  
• False accounting: Theft Act 1968, section 17
  
• False statements by Company Directors: Theft Act 1968, section 19
  
• Suppression of (company) documents: Theft Act 1968, section 20
  
• Retaining a wrongful credit: Theft Act 1968, section 24A
  
• Obtaining services by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 1
  
• Evasion of liability by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 2
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994 section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined) : Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument : Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/ Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994, section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined): Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  

Thanks Krypton, really informative! I had no idea it came into play that long ago. But it just shows that the test doesn't protect clubs at all when you look at the likes of Pompey, Birmingham and West Ham with increased debt levels and relegation. I just hope we can escape the same fate, unlikely as it is...

[Paul]

Makes you wonder how people pass the fit and proper test.

Are you fit and proper?

Oh yes I am (slids package across table)

So you are sir, so you are!

Based on krypton's post a large percentage of Rovers support would qualify - even me.

[broadsword]

I think you'll find the PL has had it's fair share of tin pot owners already.

Fit and proper is wide open to interpretation and means something entirely different to fans as it does to the PL.

Robert Mugabe would pass it, Nelson Mandela would not.

[philipl]

What are the chances that the Raos have simply fallen out, are sulking and not speaking to each other.

You have hit the nail on the head so far as I am concerned.

[Paul]

Robert Mugabe would pass it, Nelson Mandela would not.

:D