[Archived] WEC Group statememt

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Tell it to Barclays.

berk eh? http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/berk?q=berk

Over to you Hemel rover.....

I suspect you'll be banned for that dgs.... I was for calling Jim a 'sad old git'.

See you around.

Oh dear, waving the cyber red card again like a 'Carlos Kickaball'?

I know you believe we should exist in the harsh world of business but this is football not double glazing or insurance. Provincial clubs like us should punch above our weight and defy the balance sheets. Thats why we love football.

If there were no fantasy or romance Wigan wouldnt be in the Premier League, Wimbledon wouldnt have beaten Liverpool in the cup final and Lancashire United would be playing League 2 football at leyland in front of 2000 or so 'realists'.

[thenodrog]

You've worded it all wrong gord.

What you should have said is: Are town clubs with limited fanbases going to find it difficult to compete? Probably, fact of life that we will bring in less cash.

Is the town itself underserving? No, of course not as by population, probably more folk of this town come out to watch their football club than any other.

OK I should probably have said 'club'. Mincing words won't help though Matty and neither will soppy sentiment. More deserving in terms of numbers and finance either towns or clubs would possibly include both Sheffields, Leeds, Nottingham, Coventry, Southampton for starters.

Footballing history is based on sentiment but unfortunately there is little room in footballings corridors of power for sentiment. If we have to move on ... and nobody can argue that we need to... then we have to dismiss much of that sentiment and view it in the eyes of the banks and assorted money men.

[Majiball]

You've worded it all wrong gord.

What you should have said is: Are town clubs with limited fanbases going to find it difficult to compete? Probably, fact of life that we will bring in less cash.

Is the town itself underserving? No, of course not as by population, probably more folk of this town come out to watch their football club than any other.

And hear in lies the dilemma, our plan of putting all the cash into first team players wages was flawed, especially since even under the trust it was highly unlikely they would have footed the relegation bill ala Ashley. So now we find ourselves straddled with high earners at the end of their careers, wages out of control and a bereft of quality within the squad. We shifted away from the re-sell model of Hughes to signing older players under Ince and Sam and now have little value really within the squad except for the remainding Hughes signings and the odd Sam one.

[Mattyblue]

OK I should probably have said 'club'. Mincing words won't help though Matty and neither will soppy sentiment. More deserving in terms of numbers and finance either towns or clubs would possibly include both Sheffields, Leeds, Nottingham, Coventry, Southampton for starters.

Footballing history is based on sentiment but unfortunately there is little room in footballings corridors of power for sentiment. If we have to move on ... and nobody can argue that we need to... then we have to dismiss much of that sentiment and view it in the eyes of the banks and assorted money men.

'Deserve' is an odd choice of word.

Economic reality says that a Leeds, a Sheff Wed are potentially bigger earners than us, but until they get there they 'deserve' bugger all, I assume you feel Newcastle 'deserve' a trophy?

[thenodrog]

Oh dear, waving the cyber red card again like a 'Carlos Kickaball'?

I know you believe we should exist in the harsh world of business but this is football not double glazing or insurance. Provincial clubs like us should punch above our weight and defy the balance sheets. Thats why we love football.

If there were no fantasy or romance Wigan wouldnt be in the Premier League, Wimbledon wouldnt have beaten Liverpool in the cup final and Lancashire United would be playing League 2 football at leyland in front of 2000 or so 'realists'.

Now you are being civil I'll respond. Wigan.. 'fantasy or romance'? Total rubbish. Wigan are in the Prem cos of Dave Whelan full stop. Wimbledon was first division when a 'few bob' from Sam Hamman was enough to elevate them through the divisions. Nowadays sam would be blown out of the water. It need the financial clout of some foreign billionaire to emulate that. Anybody get the feeling that the 'new wave' will be chinks btw? More millionaires appeared in the past decade than you can shake a stick at over there.

'Deserve' is an odd choice of word.

Economic reality says that a Leeds, a Sheff Wed are potentially bigger earners than us, but until they get there they 'deserve' bugger all, I assume you feel Newcastle 'deserve' a trophy?

Poor direction from the owners and poor financial management have let those clubs down not the supporters. No one would argue that under a Walker or a Whelan those clubs have much more long term potential than the likes of us or Wigan, and especially so with our town's support rapidly dissipating / diluting.

Look forward not back everyone please.

[Amo]

Anybody get the feeling that the 'new wave' will be chinks btw?

"You're alright with that, like, because it's a race of people, and it's a food."

[Mattyblue]

But they don't 'deserve' anything, they just happen to live in a bigger city.

If their clubs don't sort themselves out, then tough, just like it is bloody tough being from a football backwater like Torquay and being stranded in the lower leagues (I suppose you can just support Man Yoo though).

[Give 'Em the Axe]

Chinks? Please.

Great piece from Wayne Wild. I wish folks beyond the BRFC supporters would pay attention to it.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Now you are being civil I'll respond.

I dont want to get into a 'you started it debate' but you started it.

"Chinks". I think any further 'debate' with you would give me a strong urge to take a long shower.

[CAPT KAYOS]

I've considered all this situation throughout the Walker years in the knowledge that one day it would end and the club would either have to 'wash it's face' financially or revert to yo yoing in the lower divisions. I've come up with nothing at all feasible other than the concept of Lancashire United. It's a fact that if we could delete the past 130 years and invent football now that BRFC would NEVER have existed (nor would Burnley, PNE or Blackpool)! The conditions under which this clubs were formed no longer exist now. What much more likely have come to being would be a Lancashire FC.

Like alcoholics I've a feeling that only when we hit rock bottom will we turn our gaze inward uopn ourselves and be forced to accept the reallities of our situation. We need to take off the blinkers and lift our gaze into the distance.

If anybody else can think of anything positive to add rather than mocking criticism and out of hand dismissal of the concept then please do.

Theno as before I have taken you to task on this - although I agree in concept on the 'Lancashire Utd' if it was a case of how it has to be , but the whole idea and set up is just not right and just highlights what is exactly wrong with the game.

The History cannot be forgotten about for any team regardless of who they are - the whole reason that makes Football is what it is is the game itself and its humble beginnings and it being a sport.

When it started out it was a competiive sport - now its all about (business) survival.

As I stated before outside possibly 5 or 6 teams unless an unconditionl financial input is given , no club will survive/compete in the way that football is set up now and the structure. - do you really think MU would survive even as a city club without their backing and previous history /media exposure they have been given through the years?

Going down the road of making it an 'area UTD' will mean a restructure of the whole football pyramid entirely and make a less entertaining/lose its meaning ie, even more than what we are seeing now with the cups etc - and as you say there will still be a club that finishes bottom regardles of how much they have spent (wasted)

To quote 'The conditions under which this clubs were formed no longer exist now' -lets not forget that most of the teams formed under them conditions are still around today and the game itself is based on promotion/relegation dependent upon success on the field.

To me its not a case of clubs having to adapt/ amalgamate - moreso that the whole scenario of the game that needs to be turned back to the factor of being a sport.

[Stuart]

An excellent impassioned post Capt.

I just can't see how we can ever return to the sport for sports sake model whilst there is so much the money in the game. Even though it's mostly debt rather than cash. It would require all the TV money being stopped (including across Europe) at every level and new leagues being reborn from the flames.

Gates alone sustaining every club would see a much reduced wage structure across the leagues meaning footballers would stop being millionaires and (eventually once the current crop have been wet nursed) players would play because of the love of the sport. A romantic notion.

Only when the marrow of football has been sucked dry by all those who feel they can make money out of it (sponsors - indirectly; agents - more directly) could this become a reality. The idea of a team full of Blackburn lads who have climbed to the top of the park football pyramid would certainly restore local pride but I just can't see it happening.

More likely there will be a maximum of 40 teams which survive - possibly two divisions - possibly eventually some kind of franchise format with the rest of the football world playing park football in regional leagues.

It's amazing the 90-odd teams have lasted this long. Perhaps Doncaster and Pompey could be the start of a domino effect.

Trouble is the sky generation have been weaned of their local clubs and onto the top 4 so a lot probably wouldn't notice or care.

Bit of a rambling post (long day) but that's my twopenneth.

[CAPT KAYOS]

An excellent impassioned post Capt.

I just can't see how we can ever return to the sport for sports sake model whilst there is so much the money in the game. Even though it's mostly debt rather than cash. It would require all the TV money being stopped (including across Europe) at every level and new leagues being reborn from the flames.

Gates alone sustaining every club would see a much reduced wage structure across the leagues meaning footballers would stop being millionaires and (eventually once the current crop have been wet nursed) players would play because of the love of the sport. A romantic notion.

Only when the marrow of football has been sucked dry by all those who feel they can make money out of it (sponsors - indirectly; agents - more directly) could this become a reality. The idea of a team full of Blackburn lads who have climbed to the top of the park football pyramid would certainly restore local pride but I just can't see it happening.

More likely there will be a maximum of 40 teams which survive - possibly two divisions - possibly eventually some kind of franchise format with the rest of the football world playing park football in regional leagues.

It's amazing the 90-odd teams have lasted this long. Perhaps Doncaster and Pompey could be the start of a domino effect.

Trouble is the sky generation have been weaned of their local clubs and onto the top 4 so a lot probably wouldn't notice or care.

Bit of a rambling post (long day) but that's my twopenneth.

Thanks Stuart, and vice versa you hit it on the head with the money aspect- it needs to be controlled and capped in some respects, how, I don't have a scoobie at the moment but there has to be a way.

Your preview to the future is what I think Theno is getting at but saying it in certain terms and for the likes of Rovers to compete - my argument is this will just kill it (football) completely and we shouldn't have to accept it wil be a case of que sera que sera.

My philosophy (belief)would be that if what must be must be -let the select few go their own way - as that is what it will be , just a few , and see how quickly a small league of say 10 money clubs and loses its appeal and becomes stagnant without interaction of the so called unselect majority the ie cups/ promotion relegation

[joey_big_nose]

I've considered all this situation throughout the Walker years in the knowledge that one day it would end and the club would either have to 'wash it's face' financially or revert to yo yoing in the lower divisions. I've come up with nothing at all feasible other than the concept of Lancashire United. It's a fact that if we could delete the past 130 years and invent football now that BRFC would NEVER have existed (nor would Burnley, PNE or Blackpool)! The conditions under which this clubs were formed no longer exist now. What much more likely have come to being would be a Lancashire FC.

Like alcoholics I've a feeling that only when we hit rock bottom will we turn our gaze inward uopn ourselves and be forced to accept the reallities of our situation. We need to take off the blinkers and lift our gaze into the distance.

If anybody else can think of anything positive to add rather than mocking criticism and out of hand dismissal of the concept then please do.

Hmmm.... not sure this quite adds up. We cannot compete at all with prem teams who fit into one or more of these three brackets:-

*teams in the CL

*who have serious financial backers

*who generate vast stadium revenue.

The only teams that fall into those categories are - Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sunderland, (recently with backers cash) Villa (recently - perhaps Lerner has ended the income now?), Stoke (recently with backers cash). QPR might be about to be given a major cash injection so might qualify soon enough.

That still leaves over half the league who we are in the ball park of financially. Everton, for example, through larger crowds and higher prices might make twice our ticket revenue. But really the amount of cash coming in is virtually insignificant compared to the TV revenue. So I would say really they are our financially competitive equal, not superior in broad terms. Obviously the likes of Swansea, Wigan, Bolton, Norwich are in extremely similar positions.

If Lancashire UTd could attract 40,000 fans paying twice the ticket price that might make a significant difference - say an extra 12m quid a year. But would it really be possible for that to work? Could the seemingly vast risks (most particularly getting enough people to support and attend the result of the annihilation of their own cherished teams) of replacing 4/5/6 football clubs with one be managed?

The Championship is a good competitive league with good players, full of teams of a similar support to Rovers. I obviously want Rovers in the Premiership but if we were relegated - provided we could manage the financial situation well (no small ask) - then its hardly the worst thing in the world is it? Not really worth the destruction of the club to avoid?

[Guest TheArtistFormallyKnownAsJB]

Hmmm.... not sure this quite adds up. We cannot compete at all with prem teams who fit into one or more of these three brackets:-

*teams in the CL

*who have serious financial backers

*who generate vast stadium revenue.

The only teams that fall into those categories are - Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sunderland, (recently with backers cash) Villa (recently - perhaps Lerner has ended the income now?), Stoke (recently with backers cash). QPR might be about to be given a major cash injection so might qualify soon enough.

That still leaves over half the league who we are in the ball park of financially. Everton, for example, through larger crowds and higher prices might make twice our ticket revenue. But really the amount of cash coming in is virtually insignificant compared to the TV revenue. So I would say really they are our financially competitive equal, not superior in broad terms. Obviously the likes of Swansea, Wigan, Bolton, Norwich are in extremely similar positions.

If Lancashire UTd could attract 40,000 fans paying twice the ticket price that might make a significant difference - say an extra 12m quid a year. But would it really be possible for that to work? Could the seemingly vast risks (most particularly getting enough people to support and attend the result of the annihilation of their own cherished teams) of replacing 4/5/6 football clubs with one be managed?

The Championship is a good competitive league with good players, full of teams of a similar support to Rovers. I obviously want Rovers in the Premiership but if we were relegated - provided we could manage the financial situation well (no small ask) - then its hardly the worst thing in the world is it? Not really worth the destruction of the club to avoid?

Smaller crowds + only 16m for first parachute = half a wage budget.

It would mean finding 25m in player sales to keep the same wage bill, dropping the wage bill by half or risking the equivalent in debt to come back up in 1 season.

That scenario is a nightmare for clubs as history has proven and we should definitely be more than just silently concerned.

[thenodrog]

Hmmm.... not sure this quite adds up. We cannot compete at all with prem teams who fit into one or more of these three brackets:-

*teams in the CL

*who have serious financial backers

*who generate vast stadium revenue.

The only teams that fall into those categories are - Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sunderland, (recently with backers cash) Villa (recently - perhaps Lerner has ended the income now?), Stoke (recently with backers cash). QPR might be about to be given a major cash injection so might qualify soon enough.

That still leaves over half the league who we are in the ball park of financially. Everton, for example, through larger crowds and higher prices might make twice our ticket revenue. But really the amount of cash coming in is virtually insignificant compared to the TV revenue. So I would say really they are our financially competitive equal, not superior in broad terms. Obviously the likes of Swansea, Wigan, Bolton, Norwich are in extremely similar positions.

If Lancashire UTd could attract 40,000 fans paying twice the ticket price that might make a significant difference - say an extra 12m quid a year. But would it really be possible for that to work? Could the seemingly vast risks (most particularly getting enough people to support and attend the result of the annihilation of their own cherished teams) of replacing 4/5/6 football clubs with one be managed?

The Championship is a good competitive league with good players, full of teams of a similar support to Rovers. I obviously want Rovers in the Premiership but if we were relegated - provided we could manage the financial situation well (no small ask) - then its hardly the worst thing in the world is it? Not really worth the destruction of the club to avoid?

This is a good read which is slightdated but was posted today in the venkey thread. It explains our financial predicament very clearly and also explains how whilst we struggle financially at the moment a reduction in TV money would make us more vulnerable than other clubs. A larger supporter base for one Lanky club would massively reduce costs whilst increasing merchendising revenue. 92 professional clubs is simply unsustainable in this country and I expect a 10 green bottle exercise before long. The article says that many had looked at the books and the club and that all had decided to leave us alone. A union of Lancashire teams surely must make us commercially a much more attractive proposition.

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Blackburn%20Rovers

Theno as before I have taken you to task on this - although I agree in concept on the 'Lancashire Utd' if it was a case of how it has to be , but the whole idea and set up is just not right and just highlights what is exactly wrong with the game.

The History cannot be forgotten about for any team regardless of who they are - the whole reason that makes Football is what it is is the game itself and its humble beginnings and it being a sport.

When it started out it was a competiive sport - now its all about (business) survival.

As I stated before outside possibly 5 or 6 teams unless an unconditionl financial input is given , no club will survive/compete in the way that football is set up now and the structure. - do you really think MU would survive even as a city club without their backing and previous history /media exposure they have been given through the years?

Going down the road of making it an 'area UTD' will mean a restructure of the whole football pyramid entirely and make a less entertaining/lose its meaning ie, even more than what we are seeing now with the cups etc - and as you say there will still be a club that finishes bottom regardles of how much they have spent (wasted)

To quote 'The conditions under which this clubs were formed no longer exist now' -lets not forget that most of the teams formed under them conditions are still around today and the game itself is based on promotion/relegation dependent upon success on the field.

To me its not a case of clubs having to adapt/ amalgamate - moreso that the whole scenario of the game that needs to be turned back to the factor of being a sport.

Well and good Capt but what would you say if BRFC was bankrupted and actually ceased to exist? Surely what was a possibility is lurching down the road of becoming a probability. It already is for Pompey.

[Stuart]

My philosophy (belief)would be that if what must be must be -let the select few go their own way - as that is what it will be , just a few , and see how quickly a small league of say 10 money clubs and loses its appeal and becomes stagnant without interaction of the so called unselect majority the ie cups/ promotion relegation

I think this has to be the way. Give the sky crowd the European Super League that they crave, with your Uniteds, Chelseas, Man Cities, Barcas, Real Madrids, Milans, etc.

Franchise it off and close out all of the other non-Champions League teams.

If one of those teams looks like not being able to hang on to their Super League "share", then allow another club from that country to apply.

Stick the rest of the PL teams into a Football League Division 1 and go back to a 4 tier format two 20s and two 24s.

It'd be virtually like two different sports and it would necessarily dry up the stupid, unsustainable money that is currently destroying football (for the majority). The franchise clubs can only have so many players so there will still be blokes who want to make an honest living from playing a game that we all love. Get terrestrial TV to pick up the package and get Elton Welsby back for "The Big Match".

It would be much more competitive, interesting and enjoyable. Keep the history with the domestic leagues and return some value back to the game. Have a proper FA Cup competition again. Combine the League Cup and Johnson's Paint trophy for the bottom 2 divisions.

There, we've cracked it.

[47er]

Tell it to Barclays.

berk eh? http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/berk?q=berk

Over to you Hemel rover.....

I suspect you'll be banned for that dgs.... I was for calling Jim a 'sad old git'.

See you around.

At least we know his 14 year old son would never behave in that manner!

[Bluefudge]

Relegation thread 3 months ago!!!!!

I said there, the sooner Euro ESPN Disney super league comes the better!!!

That way the rest of us can get on with enjoying the sport we call football !!!

[Stuart]

Relegation thread 3 months ago!!!!!

I said there, the sooner Euro ESPN Disney super league comes the better!!!

That way the rest of us can get on with enjoying the sport we call football !!!

You were right then and you're still right!

[Majiball]

How about we just do away with the premier league and just revert back to having one ruling body in football, then the cash could be split fairly amongst the leagues. And introduce a salary cap and a limited number of players above a certain wage amount.

Theno I can see why you suggest a lancs United but I would ask this, do you think we should do away with our borders and just be Britain, no Scots, no Irish, no welsh, or the other lot and just be Brits? I couldn't.

I know if that were to happen IE Lancs Utd, I simply wouldn't be interested and would support another club, lancs united just wouldn't feel right. The other aspect though really shouldn't be about gates and the such but sponsorship, that's were the bigger clubs really make the money that and merchandising, there heritage means they make us look like league two teams financially. We had our chance to make our name in Europe when we won the league and we said no to the likes of Baggio et al, if we'd spent then and attracted some big European names we'd be far better off now financially.

[Stuart]

How about we just do away with the premier league and just revert back to having one ruling body in football, then the cash could be split fairly amongst the leagues. And introduce a salary cap and a limited number of players above a certain wage amount.

The "Big Clubs" don't want fairness, they want all of the cash to themselves. They'd have their own TV rights by now if it was up to them. I say give them more rope...

I know if that were to happen IE Lancs Utd, I simply wouldn't be interested and would support another club, lancs united just wouldn't feel right.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of not supporting Lancs United? The argument is either Rovers or Lancs Utd - nothing else!

[Majiball]

The "Big Clubs" don't want fairness, they want all of the cash to themselves. They'd have their own TV rights by now if it was up to them. I say give them more rope...

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of not supporting Lancs United? The argument is either Rovers or Lancs Utd - nothing else!

The leagues and FA's have given too much power to the clubs, just look at the EPPP proposal. That's the premier league robbing the little clubs of poxy amounts of cash IE tens of thousands, pocket change to them. Sign it or lose it all, they were told, even by rovers.

I don't want to lose the Uniteds etc of this country, I want to beat them in their own back-yard. It's all gone too far with the FA, premier league, football league, Clubs etc, it's time we looked more to the yanks and how they control the silly amounts of cash in their sports and get some sport back in football.

[CAPT KAYOS]

The leagues and FA's have given too much power to the clubs, just look at the EPPP proposal. That's the premier league robbing the little clubs of poxy amounts of cash IE tens of thousands, pocket change to them. Sign it or lose it all, they were told, even by rovers.

I don't want to lose the Uniteds etc of this country, I want to beat them in their own back-yard. It's all gone too far with the FA, premier league, football league, Clubs etc, it's time we looked more to the yanks and how they control the silly amounts of cash in their sports and get some sport back in football.

From this it would appear that some of us are on the same hymn sheet just reading different words - as you say get rid of the silly amounts (money) as we refrred to and get some form of level control -a s I said there has to be a way , probably as you allay to here.

In context - are the UTD of today really the UTDs that you refer to though Majiball (our result over Xmas didn't seem to inspire this although our current situation may have clouded that)?

Stuart

Bluefudge, on 25 January 2012 - 20:54 PM, said:

Relegation thread 3 months ago!!!!!

I said there, the sooner Euro ESPN Disney super league comes the better!!!

That way the rest of us can get on with enjoying the sport we call football !!!

You were right then and you're still right!

And was brought up in discussions re the 39th game the other season.

Well and good Capt but what would you say if BRFC was bankrupted and actually ceased to exist? Surely what was a possibility is lurching down the road of becoming a probability. It already is for Pompey.

Pompey - did you see any of the interviews with Pompey fans yesterday?

Seriously - do you not think that Rovers would still exist though in some format - be it bottom of the pyramid or in a park?

[Majiball]

From this it would appear that some of us are on the same hymn sheet just reading different words - as you say get rid of the silly amounts (money) as we refrred to and get some form of level control -a s I said there has to be a way , probably as you allay to here.

In context - are the UTD of today really the UTDs that you refer to though Majiball (our result over Xmas didn't seem to inspire this although our current situation may have clouded that)?

When I first kicked a ball it was a sport first and foremost, now it's business and part of the beauty has gone. I'd like 'real' wage structures for all, not income dependent or should I say pandering to 'big' clubs desires. The trouble is the only way for it all to work again means FIFA et al stepping in and enforcing rules, but alas I think FIFA loves the dollar too much. The rich get richer and the poor, poorer at present, it's just like britain itself.

It's always nice to get a result against a 'big' club, even the ones of today, but I'd like to think that if fair-play was truly brought into football they'd slowly devolve back to what they once were.

[Paul]

Interesting how long it has taken for people to realise these things. I wonder to what extent it is because of our current situation?