[Archived] Typhoon scandal

[thenodrog]

From his ......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15730138

to this.........

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/French-jet-Rafale-bags-20bn-IAF-fighter-order-India-briefs-losing-European-countries/articleshow/11706551.cms

Now that BAC has effectively been shackled by the anti corruption trial last year and is now forced to fight in the world market with one hand tied behind it's back it turns out the Indian govt has suddenly had it's head turned by the French. Is it just me that smells a rat? No suprise the French will have profited from this nation shooting ourselves in the foot and certainly knowing now how flaky the Indians do business that the Indians have 'had their heads' turned too.

This area has certainly nothing to thank those nations for has it yet they owe their very existence to us. Makes me wonder how we'd be faring today if we'd sided with Hitler rather than opposed him.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

On France you clearly refer to the World Wars, which if memory serves was a war that Britain needed to win for its own continued existence as much as anything else, and almost certainly would have lost had it not been for the favour of the United States. So maybe France owes a debt of gratitude, but probably not.

I would like to know why India owes us anything, though. The modern nation may not have existed in the pre-colonial era, but the region was there and it was populated, and colonialism set them back decades in terms of culture and quality of life, only leaving after establishing tribal and political tensions that had never previously been in evidence, and still we departed reluctantly.

Or perhaps you believe that they should be grateful that we outsource our labour to their shores. Because the people of India should certainly be thankful that they have the chance to work in squalor for a pittance to satisfy the material wants of the British public.

The rest of the world owes Britain nothing. The arrogance and entitlement that this country still somehow swaggers around with is astounding, but it won't last.

[Mattyblue]

What the bloody hell are you babbling on about.

BAE are a massive part of Lancashire life and this is a bitter blow.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

What I'm "babbling" about is theno's last sentence, which completely rewrites history to support the weird notion that either India should do business with us over France regardless of the respective benefits of the proposals or that the French should turn down India's money on principle so that we can benefit.

And a "bitter blow"? Really?

It's just been pointed out on Newsnight that this contract would have made up a tiny fraction of BAE's profits in the next few years, so let's not make this into a bigger issue than it really is. In fact, the biggest whinge that most people seem to have is that we give a lot of money in aid to India and they won't give us preferential treatment in return when it comes to trade. To me that's a terrible, immoral view to hold.

Look at it this way, if India are increasing their firepower it won't be long before Pakistan want to keep pace, so there's another contract on the horizon anyway. And in the big picture BAE is still a company that turns billions in profit each year by essentially being an international arms dealer, with the biggest damage being done to its profit margins by the cuts made by OUR government, not decisions made in India.

So if theno wants to provide historical context for his last sentence in the original post I'd be much obliged, and if someone wants to explain why this is a bitter blow to Lancashire then that'd also be quite useful because on the face of it this isn't a big deal.

[Mattyblue]

Because BAE is Lancashire's biggest hi tech employer, because the sites at Warton and Samlesbury maintain a supply chain of around 40000 manufacturing jobs in this area, because the UK part of the Typhoon is exclusively manufactured in Lancashire and the fact that it was a contract that is deperately needed to ensure jobs over the long term.

These are peoples livelyhoods, so stop your pontificating.

[MarkBRFC71]

A tiny fraction eh? It was a contract worth approx $11bn - BAE Systems sales for the whole of 2010 were £22bn, its profits £1.6bn.

Take it from someone who knows first-hand, this is a huge blow and will almost certainly result in yet another HR1 and more skilled jobs scrapped.

[jim mk2]

The rest of the world owes Britain nothing. The arrogance and entitlement that this country still somehow swaggers around with is astounding, but it won't last.

Britain built the Indian railway system and much of its other infrastructure and handed over power at the end of the Raj with institutions that have enabled the sub-continent to grow into one of the world's fastest developing nations. Your continuing anti-British stance is insulting. The fact is India's decision is huge blow to Britain's manufacturing sector and north and east Lancashire in particular but for those who are familiar with the underhand dealings of the French govt in securing international contracts for their key industries it will not come as a surprise. I suspect Britian has suffered again for playing it by the rulebook.

[adopted scouser]

Britain built the Indian railway system and much of its other infrastructure and handed over power at the end of the Raj with institutions that have enabled the sub-continent to grow into one of the world's fastest developing nations. Your continuing anti-British stance is insulting. The fact is India's decision is huge blow to Britain's manufacturing sector and north and east Lancashire in particular but for those who are familiar with the underhand dealings of the French govt in securing international contracts for their key industries it will not come as a surprise. I suspect Britian has suffered again for playing it by the rulebook.

Hear, hear. If anyone needs an example of flaky Indian mismanagement, look at the state of our football club.

[colin]

Britain built the Indian railway system and much of its other infrastructure and handed over power at the end of the Raj with institutions that have enabled the sub-continent to grow into one of the world's fastest developing nations. Your continuing anti-British stance is insulting. The fact is India's decision is huge blow to Britain's manufacturing sector and north and east Lancashire in particular but for those who are familiar with the underhand dealings of the French govt in securing international contracts for their key industries it will not come as a surprise. I suspect Britian has suffered again for playing it by the rulebook.

[colin]

Britain built the Indian railway system and much of its other infrastructure and handed over power at the end of the Raj with institutions that have enabled the sub-continent to grow into one of the world's fastest developing nations.

That may be so, but India doesn't have any obligation to order it's military equipment from the UK. It's now an independant country & can order its killing machines from whoever it wants.

If it chooses to order them from somewhere else, so be it. What's the problem?

When Saddam Hussian ordered the destruction of Halabja by poison gas in 1988 the chemicals were from Singapore; The Netherlands; Egypt & West Germany. They were dropped by Russian and French aircraft that Iraq had bought.

Hey; free trade. Business. Exports.

Does anyone realise that the Exocet missiles that Argentine used in the Falkland War were made in France?

[adopted scouser]

A billion annually in aid and they choose the French, India eh ?

[thenodrog]

A billion annually in aid and they choose the French, India eh ?

I think it's a billion over 4 years Nick. Bad enough though when we are borassic.

Does anyone realise that the Exocet missiles that Argentine used in the Falkland War were made in France?

Who doesn't? Shiny Sheffield.

On France you clearly refer to the World Wars, which if memory serves was a war that Britain needed to win for its own continued existence as much as anything else, and almost certainly would have lost had it not been for the favour of the United States. So maybe France owes a debt of gratitude, but probably not.

I would like to know why India owes us anything, though. The modern nation may not have existed in the pre-colonial era, but the region was there and it was populated, and colonialism set them back decades in terms of culture and quality of life, only leaving after establishing tribal and political tensions that had never previously been in evidence, and still we departed reluctantly.

Or perhaps you believe that they should be grateful that we outsource our labour to their shores. Because the people of India should certainly be thankful that they have the chance to work in squalor for a pittance to satisfy the material wants of the British public.

The rest of the world owes Britain nothing. The arrogance and entitlement that this country still somehow swaggers around with is astounding, but it won't last.

Are you still here? Thought you couldn't wait to leave this green and pleasant land. I know I can't.

[colin]

A billion annually in aid and they choose the French, India eh ?

No matter what the UK chooses to pay India in aid it still has the right to choose from whom it buys its killing equipment.

Don't blame India. The country is possibly not bound to spend its aid from the UK on UK manufactured weapons.

No doubt the UK government is also subsidising Pakistan to buy arms from the like of BAE. Lots of jobs subsidised so that India & Pakistan can go to war with lots of UK manufactured weapons.

Lovely. We can be proud that the India- Pakistan nuclear war was subsidised by the British taxpayer via the Export Credit Guarantee Scheme.

[jim mk2]

Lovely. We can be proud that the India- Pakistan nuclear war was subsidised by the British taxpayer via the Export Credit Guarantee Scheme.

Grow up Colin. Arms manufacture is big business and always has been. We're also very good at it - and it is based in Lancashire.

A quote from Endre Lunde of IHS Jane’s, the consultant, tonight said "French political backing" had been essential in strengthening the French bid, and that the Rafale win was therefore “a major victory for President Nicolas Sarkozy . . . and a major loss for the UK”.

Normally I would be blasting Cameron and the Tories at this point but you can't beat the French for underhand political manouevring.

As for India, it should remember which country is one of is main donors.

[thenodrog]

No matter what the UK chooses to pay India in aid it still has the right to choose from whom it buys its killing equipment.

Don't blame India. The country is possibly not bound to spend its aid from the UK on UK manufactured weapons.

No doubt the UK government is also subsidising Pakistan to buy arms from the like of BAE. Lots of jobs subsidised so that India & Pakistan can go to war with lots of UK manufactured weapons.

Lovely. We can be proud that the India- Pakistan nuclear war was subsidised by the British taxpayer via the Export Credit Guarantee Scheme.

Are you sure Colin? It's only wiki but maybe you'd like to add more substance to your comments and less sarcasm.

Check out Asia....India....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_France#Asia

France have been our sworn enemies since long before they fluked victory in 1066.

India is just corrupt and corruptable, much like most of the 3rd world.

That nation has damaged this area for a hundred years. They blagged us out of textiles, they came to take our jobs and our wealth then and since even though there is no need for imported labour they still came, they've bolloxed our football club and now they are knocking another major nail into our economic coffin. Yet somehow trendy left wing thinking has us down as exploiting them. How tf does that work?

The most reprehensible aspect is that most was achieved with full blessing of the mandarins in Whitehall.

[jim mk2]

Yet somehow trendy left wing thinking has us down as exploiting them. How tf does that work?

The most reprehensible aspect is that most was achieved with full blessing of the mandarins in Whitehall.

Nothing to do with "trendy leftwing thinking" - it's just plain wrong.

The Oxbridge elite in Whitehall see their job of running this country as one of managing decline. I doubt they could give two hoots about the effect on BAE or its workforce in Blackburn and Preston (where's that Sir Humphrey ?). It was the same with the Bombardier Derby train-building contract which went to Siemens of Germany. Cameron's talk of rebalancing the economy in favour of manufacturing and the north is hot air as long as the seat of govt remains in London.

[only2garners]

Are you sure Colin? It's only wiki but maybe you'd like to add more substance to your comments and less sarcasm.

Check out Asia....India....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_France#Asia

France have been our sworn enemies since long before they fluked victory in 1066.

India is just corrupt and corruptable, much like most of the 3rd world.

That nation has damaged this area for a hundred years. They blagged us out of textiles, they came to take our jobs and our wealth then and since even though there is no need for imported labour they still came, they've bolloxed our football club and now they are knocking another major nail into our economic coffin. Yet somehow trendy left wing thinking has us down as exploiting them. How tf does that work?

The most reprehensible aspect is that most was achieved with full blessing of the mandarins in Whitehall.

You write some rubbish at times, mostly which I manage not to respond to but this takes the biscuit. The Lancashire textile business was built on technical development but sustained by exploitation of cotton production by slaves in the States and by the poor in Asia. Then when the British couldn't be bothered to take mill jobs in the full employment of the 50s we brought in cheap labour (mostly from Pakistan). Then India, having finally won independence developed their own industry undercutting us, a perfectly sensible commercial response given that they had plenty of raw cotton and plenty of labour. You make it sound like they were the culprits. I suspect that they had had enough of growing cotton at subsistence levels, selling it to us and having to buy the finished clothing back off us.

[thenodrog]

You write some rubbish at times, mostly which I manage not to respond to but this takes the biscuit. The Lancashire textile business was built on technical development but sustained by exploitation of cotton production by slaves in the States and by the poor in Asia. Then when the British couldn't be bothered to take mill jobs in the full employment of the 50s we brought in cheap labour (mostly from Pakistan). Then India, having finally won independence developed their own industry undercutting us, a perfectly sensible commercial response given that they had plenty of raw cotton and plenty of labour. You make it sound like they were the culprits. I suspect that they had had enough of growing cotton at subsistence levels, selling it to us and having to buy the finished clothing back off us.

Thanks for the history lesson. So as you have all the answers, as a region and a nation where do we go from here?

[koi]

Got Sarkozy's grubbly little fringerprints all over this (if he even has fingerprints, I'm thinking more like scale prints), the slimy little snake. I don't think the recent problem with Germany getting involved with the Iran/India oil deal has helped and Italy has an interesting relationship with the Indians.

[thenodrog]

Does anybody have Development aid figures to India from the other big 3 in Europe? Might give some insight. I understand that we will give them 280m pa over the next 4 years although with my 'corner shop' mentality I'm somewhat mystified why.

[Biddy]

Nothing to do with "trendy leftwing thinking" - it's just plain wrong.

The Oxbridge elite in Whitehall see their job of running this country as one of managing decline. I doubt they could give two hoots about the effect on BAE or its workforce in Blackburn and Preston (where's that Sir Humphrey ?). It was the same with the Bombardier Derby train-building contract which went to Siemens of Germany. Cameron's talk of rebalancing the economy in favour of manufacturing and the north is hot air as long as the seat of govt remains in London.

Who's hand were tied by the ludicrous system put in place by the previous government. However yet again your let you political persuasion cloud your argument.

[jim mk2]

Who's hand were tied by the ludicrous system put in place by the previous government. However yet again your let you political persuasion cloud your argument.

The contract could have been ripped up but your heroes chose not to. Please explain why.

[thenodrog]

The contract could have been ripped up but your heroes chose not to. Please explain why.

I think you are attempting a version of shooting the messenger. The contract was drawn up under Labour and thats the first port of call in your attempts to aportion blame.

[jim mk2]

I think you are attempting a version of shooting the messenger. The contract was drawn up under Labour and thats the first port of call in your attempts to aportion blame.

If you look at my previous post I was blaming the civil servants for the train contract - which is correct.

The Treasury drew up a contract that covered the building of the carriages and their maintenance for 30 years in which, crucially, bidders were required to arrange the initial finance to construct the trains. This meant that Bombardier's lower credit rating put it at a disadvantage against Siemens, whose A+ rating compared with Bombardier's BB meants the Derby factory lost out as it would have had to pay an extra 1.5% in interest rates for borrowing.

However, a report to the Commons transport select committee in quiry concluded that a broader calculation of the costs and benefits of the two bids, including income tax paid by British workers, would have made the Bombardier bid more financially attractive.

Another case of Government mandarins not seeing past the noses on their face and looking at the wider benefits of spending more money and always going for the cheapest option.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gRq01zSKAjXTKWOxiaxEogOek8QA?docId=N0047561332432141357A

Remind me again how the British aerospace industry was going to be ripped apart because the Indians bought a few planes from the French instead.

Funny that BAE would choose to expand if their future is in such jeopardy, wouldn't you say?