[Archived] BRFCS Podcast 27 Part 1

[PAFELL]

http://brfcspod.brfcsltd.netdna-cdn.com/INTRO.mp3

Potential new intro.

Opinions people? Do we like it or not?

Yep, like it and better than the other one.

[PAFELL]

The answer to your question is that we wouldn't start to gather actual physical sums of money until such time as they were needed to move forward. This would most likely be upon entering into discussions with the current ownership regarding any transfer of ownership. There is still time for you and the many others out there like you (including myself) that need time to be able to put aside the funds to be able to actually give, and I have made my pledge with that in mind.

As I mentioned before, we are working on a funding scheme that will allow for the BRSIT to give a form of return on the purchase of a share, and are also in discussions with local community owned financial institutions to provide special savings accounts which local residents can use specifically for the purpose of saving towards a share purchase in the BRSIT. Nothing is final, so I don't want to say anything that ends up not being true, I hope people can appreciate that, but we hope to announce details of these things very soon, as we realize there are lots of questions and concerns that need answering!

As to your second question, the BRSIT Working Party is currently looking for an experienced business to business marketing professional willing to offer up their services.

I have a friend who is a pompey fan. He told me that fans were interested in buying pompey when they went into administartion the first time.

But the administrators would not even talk to the fans unless they could show they had 100mill available. Wondering if you are aware of that. Considering pompey had already had their points deducted and therefore a relegated club. Yet admin wanted to know the fans had 100mill before even considering the fans buy out option.

Lets say 10,000 supporters put in £1000 - this could only be the initial payment. Even if it bought the club, it would not be enough.

I think what swansea did is the best option for rovers. 20% ownership of rovers, with the rest coming from business. Yet non footballing people in the area could question businesses for pledging money to the club. Especially if that business has just made them redundant etc etc.

Some supporters would want a return on their £1000, such as a free season ticket. But the reality is that once the club is fan owned every penny from season tickets would be needed - so no returns / concessions could be given.

I can see supporters / shareholders having to dig into their pockets often, just to keep the club a float, if 100% owned by fans.

[OJRovers]

I can't see it on Itunes yet?

Could someone do a link which I could right click and 'save as'?

Cheers

[mark]

I can see supporters / shareholders having to dig into their pockets often, just to keep the club a float, if 100% owned by fans.

Crossed me mind too... clubs need investment and it'd be hard enough for us to buy the club never mind sustain it. What do BRSIT say on this issue?

(Cheers Dan and Wayne - your efforts are massively appreciated).

[RoyRover]

http://brfcspod.brfcsltd.netdna-cdn.com/INTRO.mp3

Potential new intro.

Opinions people? Do we like it or not?

It's definitely better than other one, which sounds like the opening title music of Banana Man! Another good pod guys. Thanks for all the hard work.

[Miker]

I have a friend who is a pompey fan. He told me that fans were interested in buying pompey when they went into administartion the first time.

But the administrators would not even talk to the fans unless they could show they had 100mill available. Wondering if you are aware of that. Considering pompey had already had their points deducted and therefore a relegated club. Yet admin wanted to know the fans had 100mill before even considering the fans buy out option.

Lets say 10,000 supporters put in £1000 - this could only be the initial payment. Even if it bought the club, it would not be enough.

I think what swansea did is the best option for rovers. 20% ownership of rovers, with the rest coming from business. Yet non footballing people in the area could question businesses for pledging money to the club. Especially if that business has just made them redundant etc etc.

Some supporters would want a return on their £1000, such as a free season ticket. But the reality is that once the club is fan owned every penny from season tickets would be needed - so no returns / concessions could be given.

I can see supporters / shareholders having to dig into their pockets often, just to keep the club a float, if 100% owned by fans.

If we want 100% ownership of the club, the best teams to look at are Athletic Bilbao and Osasuna in Spain to see how they operate. Perhaps Daniel can look into these clubs and provide us more information. Obviously there is part-ownership of clubs in Germany, and full fan ownership of clubs in the Swedish and Turkish league, but these aren't good examples because they apply to ALL clubs in the league. Likewise, Barca and Real aren't great models to go off either, as these clubs are absolutely massive with an enormous fanbase and we can't really compare.

Osasuna seems to be a struggling club in La Liga, and has mainly been avoiding relegation in the last 2 seasons, but seems to be doing well this season. Athletic Bilbao is probably the best example and they share some history with us as well! They are in the UEFA cup this season and doing really well in the league as well. Looking at their squad it seems to consist primarily of local talent, including the highly rated Muniain. They also have a large stadium with average attendance of close to 40k (and now building a new 55k capacity stadium). Their attendnace is virtually twice ours, and I'm sure the ticket prices are more expensive.

Both these things are significant and are simply vital if we want to succeed as a 100% fan-run club. Premier League quality home-grown players need to fill the squad, and matchday and/or commercial income needs to be maximised.

Problem for me is that I don't think we have the potential to replicate Athletic Bilbao in the Premier League, nor do I think that they themselves would perform anywhere near as well in the Premier League where the top 6-7 teams are so far ahead of everyone else.

As PAFELL has said, and as John Leigh has mentioned on another thread, the best solution for us would be a part-ownership. For this to happen both fans and owners have to be willing to work together for the benefit of the club. If that was to happen and a sensible plan can be drafted then I would happily throw my support behind the initiative and pledge the £1000 required (providing I'm not investing in another project at the time).

As it stands, I remain unconvinced of the potential success of the current plan and I won't be making empty promises to throw my money into the wind just because "thats what all of us should want".

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

I have a friend who is a pompey fan. He told me that fans were interested in buying pompey when they went into administartion the first time.

But the administrators would not even talk to the fans unless they could show they had 100mill available....

...Some supporters would want a return on their £1000, such as a free season ticket. But the reality is that once the club is fan owned every penny from season tickets would be needed - so no returns / concessions could be given....

...I can see supporters / shareholders having to dig into their pockets often, just to keep the club a float, if 100% owned by fans.

Crossed me mind too... clubs need investment and it'd be hard enough for us to buy the club never mind sustain it. What do BRSIT say on this issue?

(Cheers Dan and Wayne - your efforts are massively appreciated).

If we want 100% ownership of the club, the best teams to look at are Athletic Bilbao and Osasuna in Spain to see how they operate. Perhaps Daniel can look into these clubs and provide us more information.

Problem for me is that I don't think we have the potential to replicate Athletic Bilbao in the Premier League, nor do I think that they themselves would perform anywhere near as well in the Premier League where the top 6-7 teams are so far ahead of everyone else.

As PAFELL has said, and as John Leigh has mentioned on another thread, the best solution for us would be a part-ownership. For this to happen both fans and owners have to be willing to work together for the benefit of the club. If that was to happen and a sensible plan can be drafted then I would happily throw my support behind the initiative and pledge the £1000 required (providing I'm not investing in another project at the time).

As it stands, I remain unconvinced of the potential success of the current plan and I won't be making empty promises to throw my money into the wind just because "thats what all of us should want".

Hi all - and thanks for taking up the discussion! You guys all have very valid concerns, which have not gone forgotten or not been investigated by the working group. I'll try to respond in order, and as clearly as I can. I took the liberty of chopping up your quotes to get to the heart of each of your concerns, so I apologize if I have missed anything or taken anything out of the context in which it was intended. A friendly correction would be much appreciated if that is the case.

Pafell & Mark

I am aware of the Pompey situation. Portsmouth FC had over £100m in debt at that time, and thus it was very reasonable for the Administrator to ask for them to demonstrate they could pay off this debt. Their financial situation was such that there was absolutely no way they could service a debt of that size on their operating turnover and expense levels in any conventional way. Thus, seen from a purely financial perspective this is not a valid comparison at all, in my personal and professional opinion, with respect.

In regards to fans wanting a return for their contribution, and the BRSIT not being able to give that due to ongoing future revenue stream considerations - I can go as far as to guarantee that we are putting together a return package that will be very attractive to any potential contributor, and will also only have a minimal effect on turnover going forward. As I have stated here and elsewhere, this will hopefully be published openly in the coming days.

Continuous reinvestment by existing contributors is not part of the business plan that has been meticulously put together and carefully scrutinized.

Miker

Atletico Bilbao is a very special football club. They are my favorite side to watch in the Spanish league. However, there are key differences that make them extremely hard to replicate. First of all, Bilbao finds itself smack in the middle of a metropolitan area boasting a population of over 1 million, and almost 400,000 within the city limits themselves. It is a much larger potential supporters base locally than BRFC can boast. Secondly, they are famous for only having players from the Basque Country playing at the club, which is extraordinary, and one of the reasons I admire them so much. This club is so culturally integrated into the local community and region, it is unprecedented. Many people call them the Basque Country National Team, and players from the region consider it a great honor to play for the club. They are the only club outside of Barcelona and RealMadrid to have never ever been relegated from the top division.

The only other sports team that comes anywhere near this level of community based ownership and success is the Greenbay Packers of Greenbay, Wisconsin in the United States' NFL, who are currently reigning Superbowl Champions. The Packers, while being supported by a community that bears a much better comparison to Blackburn, operate under completely different regulations that level the playing field, the biggest example of which is a salary cap.

Partial ownership is not being written off in any way by the BRSIT - as I have stated earlier, all options are being looked into and explored that would allow the Club to at least partially come under the control and ownership of the supporters and the community. We have feelers out in dozens of directions to this end, but as I have stated, the main focus of the BRSIT at this moment in time is to gain as much backing and support as possible so that we are in the strongest position possible to enter such discussions in a serious and meaningful way.

Miker, Pafell, and Mark - I understand your stance, and you are not alone. However, without your support and those like you, it will be difficult to come to the stage where the fans and the owners can sit down and draft that sensible plan you require - it just would be very difficult to get to that stage without the backing required to enter discussions. I'm sure you see the circularity here. You can pledge yourself and leave the comment that your pledge is contingent upon the publication of a sensible plan being drafted and made publicly available. The BRSIT would never actually start collecting physical sums of money until that stage in any case.

[Sparky Marky]

Jesus man...you must be in cloud cuckoo land. This just won't happen. Its a pie in the sky idea. Dan Grabko...your posts are just the longest ....don't you have kids and a life or something...

Rovers owned by its supporters is never going to be realistic due to social and economic reasons. You misunderstand the fan base...perhaps because you are not from these parts.....and Wayne Wild(is that his real name? Sounds like a dodgy WWE wrestler) just wants a bit of publicity for him and his business.

How much cash are you two putting in? Or how much have you already put into this?

[Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)]

...and Wayne Wild (is that his real name? Sounds like a dodgy WWE wrestler)...

How much cash are you two putting in? Or how much have you already put into this?

"...and now for the main event, Sparky Marky vs Rowdy Roddy Piper!"

But seriously, we have of course both pledged our money. In addition to our pledges, all expenses, though relatively small at this point, are coming directly out of our own pockets.

[Bobby G]

I commend anyone taking an initiative in the situation. Although I do not think this particular incarnation of the idea will work, as for one thing besides anything else, Venkys will not walk away for ZERO.

[Sparky Marky]

Me too. It just seems like a lot of people are involved and spending a lot of energy on an idea that just won't even get off the starting blocks. Mr Wild must be quite a busy man so I wonder what real time and money has gone into this from him persinally....If he is a blackburn lad he will know in the back of his mind that this will never work in a small working class town like this. Therefore I am suspicious.

[philipl]

Something needs to happen as the current ownership is manifestly incompetent and seemingly inapable of taking advice from anyone other than rip-off merchants. The effort by Wayne Wild and Co is an exellent start and means the ownership will be a live issue all the time until the Venky's are gone.

[PAFELL]

Hi all - and thanks for taking up the discussion! You guys all have very valid concerns, which have not gone forgotten or not been investigated by the working group. I'll try to respond in order, and as clearly as I can. I took the liberty of chopping up your quotes to get to the heart of each of your concerns, so I apologize if I have missed anything or taken anything out of the context in which it was intended. A friendly correction would be much appreciated if that is the case.

Pafell & Mark

I am aware of the Pompey situation. Portsmouth FC had over £100m in debt at that time, and thus it was very reasonable for the Administrator to ask for them to demonstrate they could pay off this debt. Their financial situation was such that there was absolutely no way they could service a debt of that size on their operating turnover and expense levels in any conventional way. Thus, seen from a purely financial perspective this is not a valid comparison at all, in my personal and professional opinion, with respect.

In regards to fans wanting a return for their contribution, and the BRSIT not being able to give that due to ongoing future revenue stream considerations - I can go as far as to guarantee that we are putting together a return package that will be very attractive to any potential contributor, and will also only have a minimal effect on turnover going forward. As I have stated here and elsewhere, this will hopefully be published openly in the coming days.

Continuous reinvestment by existing contributors is not part of the business plan that has been meticulously put together and carefully scrutinized.

Miker

Atletico Bilbao is a very special football club. They are my favorite side to watch in the Spanish league. However, there are key differences that make them extremely hard to replicate. First of all, Bilbao finds itself smack in the middle of a metropolitan area boasting a population of over 1 million, and almost 400,000 within the city limits themselves. It is a much larger potential supporters base locally than BRFC can boast. Secondly, they are famous for only having players from the Basque Country playing at the club, which is extraordinary, and one of the reasons I admire them so much. This club is so culturally integrated into the local community and region, it is unprecedented. Many people call them the Basque Country National Team, and players from the region consider it a great honor to play for the club. They are the only club outside of Barcelona and RealMadrid to have never ever been relegated from the top division.

The only other sports team that comes anywhere near this level of community based ownership and success is the Greenbay Packers of Greenbay, Wisconsin in the United States' NFL, who are currently reigning Superbowl Champions. The Packers, while being supported by a community that bears a much better comparison to Blackburn, operate under completely different regulations that level the playing field, the biggest example of which is a salary cap.

Partial ownership is not being written off in any way by the BRSIT - as I have stated earlier, all options are being looked into and explored that would allow the Club to at least partially come under the control and ownership of the supporters and the community. We have feelers out in dozens of directions to this end, but as I have stated, the main focus of the BRSIT at this moment in time is to gain as much backing and support as possible so that we are in the strongest position possible to enter such discussions in a serious and meaningful way.

Miker, Pafell, and Mark - I understand your stance, and you are not alone. However, without your support and those like you, it will be difficult to come to the stage where the fans and the owners can sit down and draft that sensible plan you require - it just would be very difficult to get to that stage without the backing required to enter discussions. I'm sure you see the circularity here. You can pledge yourself and leave the comment that your pledge is contingent upon the publication of a sensible plan being drafted and made publicly available. The BRSIT would never actually start collecting physical sums of money until that stage in any case.

So the maximum a supporter would have to put in would be £1000.

[PAFELL]

Me too. It just seems like a lot of people are involved and spending a lot of energy on an idea that just won't even get off the starting blocks. Mr Wild must be quite a busy man so I wonder what real time and money has gone into this from him persinally....If he is a blackburn lad he will know in the back of his mind that this will never work in a small working class town like this. Therefore I am suspicious.

To be honest, repect has to be given for people looking into the possibility of fan ownership / or getting somebody else to buy the club. I won't mock the effort. Even if I do not think it will get off the ground, in its current format.

But the plan itself started badly due to the press release / statements put out by BRAG at the time and leading up to the launch. They are also still not doing themselves or this plan any favours. Because of that it could be hard to win others over.

As I said I won't mock the plan. But there is a hell of a long way to go before I am convinced and willing to part with a penny, let alone £1000.

[m1st]

I share mark's reservations on this. I'm a pensioner who isn't exactly on the breadline, but equally isn't so flush that I'd miss £1,000, even if it were pledged to a cause as close to my heart as the Rovers.

Fwiw, I was put off the plan by the way that the contributors to the podcast were asked towards the end if they had pledged. It almost began to sound as though pledging is going to become, for want of a better phrase, "A badge of honour", with non-pledgers being seen as second-class supporters. We've had enough dialogue on here in past months where loyalties have been been questioned; please don't let this be another virility test.

[A cup of beans]

I can't see it on Itunes yet?

Could someone do a link which I could right click and 'save as'?

Cheers

OJ.. QUICKTIME HIGHJACKS some mp3s in browsers.

If the link is playing the file and not letting you 'save as', uninstall quicktime. that should solve the issue.

im gonna finally listen to these podcasts without interruptions. been trying for days!

[mark]

Me too. It just seems like a lot of people are involved and spending a lot of energy on an idea that just won't even get off the starting blocks. Mr Wild must be quite a busy man so I wonder what real time and money has gone into this from him persinally....If he is a blackburn lad he will know in the back of his mind that this will never work in a small working class town like this. Therefore I am suspicious.

With respect I think you misunderstand. Even if you are right and nothing comes of it, these efforts will still have got the attention of Venky's more so than all the marches and protests combined!

Clearly ownership is the ultimate aim but if that doesn't work out there are other satisfactory outcomes that can come of these efforts:

- Venky's engage with the fans, pull their socks up and try to repair the situation (it IS possible).

- The passion and actions of the fans make Rovers an attractive prospect to potential buyers.

- The media attention highlights the need to reform the fit and proper test.

There are more. This effort is not as one dimensional as it seems.

Additionally, I think you should give people that are working hard to sort out this mess a little more respect.

[purplegrover]

A lot of sceptics and critics. It's a lot of money for sure.

The way I see it though is that if this supporters trust doesn't ever get to the stage where is a truly viable possibility, there will be no need for any money to change hands anyway. The 'pledge' process is fairly common in this sort of exercise - its a testing of the waters to see if the idea can fly.

In any case, as Dan pointed out, no-one appears to have removed partial or percentage fan ownership from the table as part of the BRSIT proposal.

Secondly, while I understand totally the sceptics worries about whether this will work...has anyone got a better idea right now ? Another Jack Walker waiting in the wings?

Thirdly - absolutely agree that not everyone could ever hope to afford to chip in, and that may include a big chunk of the local dedicated die-hard fan base. But is that a reason to knock the percentage that can afford to chip in, when all they are trying to do is save the club for all of us?

It is seriously looking like one of two options are about to occur

1 - "The slow death" - we stay in the Premier League at the expense of Wolves or QPR - and then get stuck in the same Kean/Venkys nightmare for another year while Venkys use the fact that they own the club to increase brand awareness of their chicken but no help to the club itself at all - and then go down next year - go to (2)

2 - "The quick death" - we get relegated this year, Venkys sell off Robbo, Yak, Junior and whoever else they can, recoup their own losses, and walk away, leaving behind a debt and a squad of journeymen and a club in administration

To the sceptics I say - Maybe Wayne Wild (WWE wrestler ? Good call !!!) is not someone that the average working class rovers fan would ordinarily sit down and have a pint with (heaven forbid, he's actually made some money in business !)- but what better plan have you got to save your (our) club from the above two scenarios ? If something isn't done, Accrington Stanley better get ready, because they will be getting a big influx of football starved locals who won't be able to stomach going to the Clarets to get their saturday fix. At least he's giving it a crack, and I applaud him for that.

And while I haven't seen any evidence at all that he's only planning this to flog his business, have you heard of Venky's ?

[m1st]

It is seriously looking like one of two options are about to occur

1 - "The slow death" - we stay in the Premier League at the expense of Wolves or QPR - and then get stuck in the same Kean/Venkys nightmare for another year while Venkys use the fact that they own the club to increase brand awareness of their chicken but no help to the club itself at all - and then go down next year - go to (2)

2 - "The quick death" - we get relegated this year, Venkys sell off Robbo, Yak, Junior and whoever else they can, recoup their own losses, and walk away, leaving behind a debt and a squad of journeymen and a club in administration

And, in that context, this is scary.

[Eddie]

We actually wouldn't be left with a squad of journeyman, we would be left with a very young and inexperienced squad.

[Kendalrover]

We actually wouldn't be left with a squad of journeyman, we would be left with a very young and inexperienced squad.

and the worst manager in the premier league championship

[Guest Wen Y Hu]

Podcast 27, Part 1, is now officially published to the front page here. The direct link to the file has been updated in the first post of the thread.