[Archived] Tanker strike?

[Tom]

Some people really need to calm down with the personal insults its not needed, not sure why people can't have a discussion without resorting to it

[thenodrog]

It might suprise you but there are people who are patriotic and love this country. You choose where you live and it's your loss but don't slag off your own country on the way out. You've failed here which makes it your fault and not this country's.

By the way here are some "interesting" stories about the godforsaken hell-hole in Africa (a former British colony by the way) you now inhabit. Sounds like you and Tanzania deserve each other.

http://www.unicef.or...ANIA_REPORT.pdf

http://allafrica.com...1102250159.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-12126861

http://www.guardian....gainst-children

http://www.bbc.co.uk...africa-16289240

http://www.news24.co...otests-20111110

C'mon Jim, that stuff won't concern Jeru. I'd imagine if he is going there then his remuneration will put him in the elite class and he wont have to concern himself with the widespread atrocities committed on the riff raff existing in the 'absolute poverty' belt. He'll only ever have seen 'relative poverty' in this country and thats nowt to bother about.

[Amo]

If you read my post I'm not "enraged" by you leaving - just you slagging off this country of which I am extremely proud. I'm sure you'll find your Jersusalem in Tanzania or some other third world country that welcomes misfits such as yourself.

But according to you this place is going to the dogs under the Condemners, so surely he's better off out of it?

[thenodrog]

Quite why you feel so proud about British people having roamed the world disenfranchising less advanced nations is beyond me, though.

Thats rather heavy in irony imo. Have you lokked in a mirror of late Jeru?

btw

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/disenfranchise?q=disenfranchise

Surely our history is full of this country actually supporting the right to vote amongst native populations in second and third world nations? Currently we are backing self determination for the people of the Falklands and in the past most notably Rhodesia and South Africa and most recently Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc. It's a bone of contention with me cos half of em apparently don't want the right to vote and would rather reject the principles of democracy. If it's democratic idealism you are seeking I don't think that the Dark Continent is exactly the best place for you.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Thats rather heavy in irony imo. Have you lokked in a mirror of late Jeru?

btw

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/disenfranchise?q=disenfranchise

Surely our history is full of this country actually supporting the right to vote amongst native populations in second and third world nations? Currently we are backing self determination for the people of the Falklands and in the past most notably Rhodesia and South Africa and most recently Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc. It's a bone of contention with me cos half of em apparently don't want the right to vote and would rather reject the principles of democracy. If it's democratic idealism you are seeking I don't think that the Dark Continent is exactly the best place for you.

Really can't be bothered to reply to every point anymore because it's a waste of time trying to talk to people who either don't understand or intentionally miss your point.

However, the definition of disenfranchisement that YOU provided doesn't support your argument here; "to take away power or opportunities, especially the right to vote, from a person or group."

Especially the right to vote does not mean exclusively the right to vote, so my use of the word in a slightly broader sense was actually correct. Besides, how many of the Africans, Asians, or even those in the American colonies do you suppose were allowed to vote for the British government that ruled them during the days of Empire?

To assume that the British gave democracy to these people when we left is a little inaccurate, since there was little regard for the systems that were established in former colonies afterwards. Of course, you probably forget that for most of Britain's time as the major world power you had to be over 25, white, male and a landowner even to vote if you were a British citizen.

Since then, Britain has been second only to America in its arrogance as both countries simply appointed themselves the moral arbiters of the world and feel free to intervene where it suits their purposes while callously and hypocritically standing and watching atrocities elsewhere.

Let's not pretend that the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were intended to do anything for the locals. There were far more selfish motives at play than giving freedom to the people. Do you think the average Afghan cares about the slight difference between being shot by the Taliban or being shot by a coalition soldier? Or maybe they're grateful that they have a choice between being blown up by a car bomb or being blasted to smithereens by a far more advanced British/American weapon.

In all probability, they would prefer the days when playing by a certain set of rules kept you safe, rather than the current environment of Western-induced instability where even if they do everything right they still might not make it home each night. Good old interventionist doctrine of going for a spot of armed-tourism, making a complete mess of your destination and then leaving when you realise you'll never be able to put it right. Yeah, those natives have so much to be thankful for.

Rhodesia turned into Mugabe's Zimbabwe, we left Apartheid to become the prevailing system in South Africa, Libya hasn't settled into any kind of normality yet, and the people of the Falklands only want to be British because we shipped the existing population off to Argentina when we got there and replaced them with Brits. Pretty poor examples of what Britain has done for the world.

Then there's the Arab Spring. You'll notice that Syria hasn't actually been resolved, so don't congratulate yourself on that score just yet.

As for taking away power or opportunities, is there any more absolute demonstration of that than the colonial system where people with bigger weapons than the locals turned up, seized control of the government and monopolised every major industry, taking the profits back to their already prospering motherland and then patting themselves on the back a hundred years later because the locals are inexplicably poor and we're helping them by freezing their interest payments?

Sickening. But apparently this is the history we should be so proud of.

If you're still spouting some updated version of the "civilising mission" then I'm afraid you really have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm sure you and Jim will be along momentarily to tell me how despicable I must be because I don't swallow the patriotism propaganda that is spun to people to make them feel like their working class lives somehow relate to those of the people who make our decisions for us. And I have no doubt you'll keep rewriting history to convince yourselves that Britain has been a force for good in the world, even though our record for causing problems in situations that don't concern us stretches all the way back to the Crusades.

Just what is British anyway? The British society you boys seem to yearn for apparently doesn't exist anymore, society isn't really British, the royal family aren't properly British, St. George was Syrian. I guess all that is fitting, though. Take whatever you fancy from other parts of the world, label it British and complain about all the 'foreign' stuff that's left.

Here ends the rant.

[thenodrog]

Thanks for your very own version of life the universe and everything. I can safely predict the shine will wear off your intended colonial existence in Tanzania before you've properly unpacked your bags. So allow me to just take comfort from the fact that I'm quite happy and fulfilled and at ease with all things around me whilst you will be embittered and unhappy for the rest of your days. Lets just leave it there.

[jim mk2]

Pretty poor examples of what Britain has done for the world.

Sickening. But apparently this is the history we should be so proud of.

From education to infrastructure to democratic institutions to inventions to arts and culture and sport, Britain has given more to the world than probably any other nation. Britain has a great and illustrious history of which everyone should be proud. Good luck in the former British colony of Tanzania.

[adopted scouser]

From education to infrastructure to democratic institutions to inventions to arts and culture and sport, Britain has given more to the world than probably any other nation. Britain has a great and illustrious history of which everyone should be proud. Good luck in the former British colony of Tanzania.

At last, something we can agree on.

Google 'Bob Hoskins speech long good Friday'

[Jeru tha Damaja]

From education to infrastructure to democratic institutions to inventions to arts and culture and sport, Britain has given more to the world than probably any other nation. Britain has a great and illustrious history of which everyone should be proud. Good luck in the former British colony of Tanzania.

The Romans created much of Britain's infrastructure, does that mean we should be extolling the virtues of Caligula and co, clinging to that bygone era and wishing we were still governed from Rome? The Normans established a lot of the fundamentals of our legal system, so should we pine for French rule?

Britain more than played its part in delivering smallpox and influenza to the Americas, initiated the West African slave trade, camp up with concentration camps years before Nazis even existed, held India's cotton fields to ransom (incidentally managing to reduce production in the process) and massacred anyone who stood in the way. Oh yeah, then there's the way we drew up the borders of the Middle East.

Yep, Britain is a veritable Santa Claus.

Since I've mentioned the Nazis, they also set up colonies in Africa under the Nazi government. Should Germany be proud of its aggressive, expansionist and murderous past? Don't answer, I don't care.

The truth, as ever, lies in the middle of the two extremes. I'm sure you realise that as well as I do. But Britain's history is chequered, it has done good and bad, but clinging to a fictionalised version of the past seems to be increasingly popular for people who want to believe Britain once had a noble global purpose.

[colin]

So allow me to just take comfort from the fact that I'm quite happy and fulfilled and at ease with all things around me whilst you will be embittered and unhappy for the rest of your days. Lets just leave it there.

Absolutely old bean.

[jim mk2]

Don't answer, I don't care.

If you don't care about my answers why do you keep replying to them ?

Look, you don't build the greatest empire the world has even seen by being nice, and it is possible we were a bit naughty with some natives in Bono-Bongo land.

We even set up a penal colony on the other side of the world for all our miscreants - in days gone by with your sense of injustice no doubt you would have been transported there.

But as has been pointed out Bob Hoskins said to two Americans in the Long Good Friday... "what the ****** have you given the world apart from hamburgers?" and just for a minute instead of denigrating it be positive about this wonderful country and think of the gifts we have given this world.

And take that bloody great chip off your shoulder.

[adopted scouser]

If you don't care about my answers why do you keep replying to them ?

Look, you don't build the greatest empire the world has even seen by being nice, and it is possible we were a bit naughty with some natives in Bono-Bongo land.

We even set up a penal colony on the other side of the world for all our miscreants - in days gone by with your sense of injustice no doubt you would have been transported there.

But as has been pointed out Bob Hoskins said to two Americans in the Long Good Friday... "what the ****** have you given the world apart from hamburgers?" and just for a minute instead of denigrating it be positive about this wonderful country and think of the gifts we have given this world.

And take that bloody great chip off your shoulder.

It's a Hot Dog, but glad you looked it up.

[thenodrog]

Britain more than played its part in delivering smallpox and influenza to the Americas, initiated the West African slave trade, camp up with concentration camps years before Nazis even existed, held India's cotton fields to ransom (incidentally managing to reduce production in the process) and massacred anyone who stood in the way. Oh yeah, then there's the way we drew up the borders of the Middle East.

Yep, Britain is a veritable Santa Claus.

Since I've mentioned the Nazis, they also set up colonies in Africa under the Nazi government. Should Germany be proud of its aggressive, expansionist and murderous past? Don't answer, I don't care.

I find it 'interesting' that you obviously deplore foreign nationals travelling to settle into foreign lands for material gain.... which I must say I have a certain amount of empathy with Jeru.... yet quite predictably it appears that you can't wait to be one!

Oh! And I'm quite prepared to take my chances with smallpox and the flu as opposed to widespread malaria, ebola and aids that you are heading for! Better make sure you wipe the toilet seats I'd suggest.

[thenodrog]

It's a Hot Dog, but glad you looked it up.

'A journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step' Confucius.

I think hamburger might have come from the reference to the ambitious Krauts wiv bottle but never mind. btw ... Great film and a proper convincing ard basket that Bob Hoskins... he makes Ray Winstone look like Julian Clary.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

I find it 'interesting' that you obviously deplore foreign nationals travelling to settle into foreign lands for material gain.... which I must say I have a certain amount of empathy with Jeru.... yet quite predictably it appears that you can't wait to be one!

Oh! And I'm quite prepared to take my chances with smallpox and the flu as opposed to widespread malaria, ebola and aids that you are heading for! Better make sure you wipe the toilet seats I'd suggest.

It's not travelling abroad or even settling there that I have a problem with. It's expecting to be the boss when you get there just because you're carrying a gun, then enslaving the locals and pillaging the land. But if you have any sense then you'd have understood that already, so I can only assume you've intentionally missed the point.

I wasn't talking about smallpox and flu in modern Britain, I was referring to Britain being among the colonial powers that used those diseases as biological weapons. Again, it seems you argue against what you wish I said rather than what I actually did.

Malaria I'm fairly confident with, but the medical explanation for that confidence is a bit much to be bothered with right now. Ebola has never been recorded in Tanzania (it has in Britain, though). And I wouldn't worry too much about AIDS since I'm married and, without getting into detail, I can be pretty certain my wife isn't HIV+.

Appreciate your concern, though.

Anyway, that's it, I'm done. Twist what I've said any way you like, make as many assumptions as you need to convince yourself that I'm miserable, it's fine.

[Mike Graham]

I hope that you enjoy Tanga JtD, I have been a couple of times and have travelled around on my own - I felt safer than I would in Burnley

I hope to be over in Kenya soon to help encourage the Government to look at nuclear power.