[Archived] Venkys, Kean, Stability and Progress?

[walk down bolton road]

Not sure why we are having a ding dong about which manager we want. Kean has a job for life as long as Venkys stay in town.Don't look like they're going anywhere soon .Its great owning a PL Club for free because every time any cash is needed you just sell somebody and the manager never questions it..And The Club is no doubt now subsidising their lifestyle or other parts of the Venkys group.Where else could you raise big cash so quickly than by selling assets???

No wonder these illigitimates are here for the long haul!!

Sadly everything you say here is 100% correct.Nothing will change while Venkys own the club.

Even if we stay up you no the script now,Kean still in charge,Hoillet on his way out,and a summer of total frustration on decent players coming into the club.

[Amo]

A fact is something that can be proven, you yourself now clutch at the straw that he was successful at ONE club. (what happened to Palace? Blues?Sunderland?)

Birmingham - Took them for mid-table to their first promotion to the top-flight in sixteen years.

They had a string of mid-table finishes (10th, 13th and 12th) in Bruce's PL reign. Yes he took Birmingham down but he also took them straight back, which you conveniently left out. So yes, Steve Bruce has two promotions, mid-table success and a relegation on his CV, all with a lower league side.

Steve Kean haaaaaas... what? Dragging an established PL club into two relegation battles in two seasons?

Relegation from the premier league

See above.

He took Birmingham up, did well for successive seasons, took them down but also took them back up.

...flopping at the club he spent the most time with in the top flight with a 29% record, having spent fortunes does not equate to a manager better than Kean.

Bruce started well at Sunderland but ultimately losing key players like Bent & Gyan did it for him. That's no excuse, but take that calibre of goalscorer out of any side and you've got problems. Like I said, Bruce wouldn't be the first manager to make the step-up and find himself out of his depth. He wouldn't have bags of money to chuck at it if he came here. He'd have to return to his roots.

Anyone who wants Bruce accepts relegation is a decent prospect and for fans who still care whether we win or lose this should be a major concern.

Whaaaaaat? You don't even know what you're talking about. So because Bruce has relegation on his CV (ignoring his two promotions and back-to-back mid-table PL finishes), he's a worse prospect than Kean? That same Steve Kean that has us fighting relegation year in year out when we were originally a mid-table side? Okay, Imy. You can drop the poor man's braddock approach. It's not working.

[Andy]

Anyone who wants Bruce accepts relegation is a decent prospect and for fans who still care whether we win or lose this should be a major concern.

So what does that say for anyone backing Kean then, considering his record is worse than Bruce's?

I'm completely and utterly baffled if anyone can hand-on-heart say that Steve Kean is a better manager than Steve Bruce.

[Howler]

Steve Bruce also managed to keep Wigan up and in his second season had them finish 11th in the League. Not quite as good as Kean then....

[imy9]

Topman- "poor man's Braddock" approach? You openly state that winning or losing does not matter to you, so why do you care at all who is the manager?

On Bruce- "Bruce started well at Sunderland but ultimately losing key players like Bent & Gyan did it for him" So when Kean loses Jones and Samba and a number of key first team players it does not matter because its Kean? Interesting how excuses are being made for Bruce. (I would not make excuses for either as they chose to stay in the jobs regardless)

Bruce did well at the start at Birmingham but ultimately got them relegated, something which you are downplaying. We have no money to spend (he likes to waste money), we are struggling at the bottom (two of the last three clubs he has been with have been relegated or on the verge) so why would we want him here? He spent THREE years at Sunderland and has a 1% record better than Kean!

We have no devine right to be in the top half of the table, we spent little under the trust and then sold our best players and slashed our wage bill, this may have worked but we sack the man capable of working under those conditions! So hiring Kean and keeping him is the fault of Venkys, Kean as a novice and muddled through and kept us up last year and may do again, how many expected that?

You brought Hodgson into the conversation, then Allardyce then dropped them again once you realised your points made no sense! Your facts are all muddled up to, for example Valencia was brought to Wigan by Jewell NOT Bruce as you claim, now if you stopped WUMMING for a minute you may have realised that.

A lot of the posts you make in reference to me Topman have a snidy remark attached to them, which there is no need for.

[Amo]

Topman- "poor man's Braddock" approach? You openly state that winning or losing does not matter to you, so why do you care at all who is the manager?

Even if I didn't care, it doesn't make my point any less valid.

On Bruce- "Bruce started well at Sunderland but ultimately losing key players like Bent & Gyan did it for him" So when Kean loses Jones and Samba and a number of key first team players it does not matter because its Kean? Interesting how excuses are being made for Bruce. (I would not make excuses for either as they chose to stay in the jobs regardless)

The difference being that Bruce was actually doing a good job with those players in his side. Kean inherited the likes of Jones & Samba and still took us to a last day relegation battle.

Bruce did well at the start at Birmingham but ultimately got them relegated, something which you are downplaying. We have no money to spend (he likes to waste money), we are struggling at the bottom (two of the last three clubs he has been with have been relegated or on the verge) so why would we want him here? He spent THREE years at Sunderland and has a 1% record better than Kean!

You're the one downplaying the fact he got Birmingham promoted in the first place and secured successive mid-table finishes before they went down. You also have no interest in the good work he did at Wigan because apparently the game has completely changed in the space of three years as Man. City have spent some dough. Even when that hasn't affected our modus operandi, but hey ho. All that matters is Bruce got Birmingham relegated. Nevermind that he took them back up and then enjoyed success at Wigan after that, a similar sized club to our own. Nope, that ONE relegation is why he's not fit to usurp Steve Kean. The man who has enjoyed nothing but relegation battles in his short but glittering career as a PL manager.

We have no devine right to be in the top half of the table...

We have no divine right to be in this league, but we've done a smashing job of it for over a decade now, all of which has been jeopardized in two straight seasons by Venky's and Kean. However, you're more than happy to stick with the manager who has had a hand in it. I've already mentioned that Bruce wouldn't be my ideal appointment, but beggars can't be choosers.

...we spent little under the trust and then sold our best players and slashed our wage bill, this may have worked but we sack the man capable of working under those conditions! So hiring Kean and keeping him is the fault of Venkys, Kean as a novice and muddled through and kept us up last year and may do again, how many expected that?

Praise be to Kean for undoing the good work of his predecessor and saving us by the skin of our teeth. I mean... That's what you're getting at, right? It's hard to tell with you sometimes.

You brought Hodgson into the conversation, then Allardyce then dropped them again once you realised your points made no sense!

No, I simply moved on because you couldn't get your head around it. Hodgson flopped at Liverpool but he was picked up by WBA and they've never looked back, because they didn't judge him on ONE low point in his career. Which is precisely what you're doing with Bruce.

Your facts are all muddled up to, for example Valencia was brought to Wigan by Jewell NOT Bruce as you claim, now if you stopped WUMMING for a minute you may have realised that.

Oh noes, I got ONE signing incorrect. You obviously have to rely on debating minutia because your main argument has no weight to it. So what about the other bargain buys Bruce made at Wigan? Or are you so hung up on the fact he didn't sign Valencia you can't process anything else?

A lot of the posts you make in reference to me Topman have a snidy remark attached to them, which there is no need for.

I suggest you go back and read some of your own before you start pointing fingers.

[imy9]

1. "Even if I didn't care, it doesn't make my point any less valid."

Yes it does. Why do you care if Bruce/ Mourinho/ Hiddink is in charge as in your words you don't care whether we win or lose? Why are you so obsessed with Steve Bruce.

2. "The difference being that Bruce was actually doing a good job with those players in his side. Kean inherited the likes of Jones & Samba and still took us to a last day relegation battle."

Bruce lost the dressing room, he also lost it at Blues too (one of the reasons he left them), take those strikers out and look how much he spent, is that so difficult to understand, he spent lots of money and they were relegation fodder.

3. "praise be to Kean for undoing the good work of his predecessor and saving us by the skin of our teeth. I mean... That's what you're getting at, right? It's hard to tell with you sometimes."

No... Venkys are at fault, did you not understand that from the line "So hiring Kean and keeping him is the fault of Venkys"

4. "No, I simply moved on because you couldn't get your head around it. Hodgson flopped at Liverpool but he was picked up by WBA and they've never looked back, because they didn't judge him on ONE low point in his career. Which is precisely what you're doing with Bruce."

Bloody hell you're hard work... Hodgson was manager of the YEAR EIGHT months previously at Fulham, he was picked up by West Brom in the SAME season, Bruce was manager of Wigan THREE seasons ago, can you not grasp the time difference and how the situations are completely different?

5. "Oh noes, I got ONE signing incorrect. You obviously have to rely on debating minutia because your main argument has no weight to it. So what about the other bargain buys Bruce made at Wigan? Or are you so hung up on the fact he didn't sign Valencia you can't process anything else?"

No the point is if you got one fact wrong, how many others have you got wrong "by mistake", you can see where I am going, do I need to check everything as you clearly are getting wrong information from somewhere.

6. "I suggest you go back and read some of your own before you start pointing fingers."

Exhibit A:

Post 92 "Please to be havin' whatever you are smoking." Please read my post and highlight any sarcy comment from me.

Exhibit B

Post 108- "But psssh, who needs those extra points! Kean will be up there soon enough. In Imy we trust."

Exhibit C

Post 112- "Imy's confused."

I could go on Topman, can you find a sarcy comment between 92 and 112 that I made against you? Deafening silence/ ignoring this post is what I expect, point number 6 and 5 are related and reflects your credibility which is virtually zip.

[onlyonejackwalker]

No-one seems to have spotted the twisted irony of the words, 'Venky's, Kean, Stability and Progress' all appearing in the same sentence on this thread.....

VenKean progress can be summarised as zero steps forward and roughly seven steps back.

[Amo]

Yes it does. Why do you care if Bruce/ Mourinho/ Hiddink is in charge as in your words you don't care whether we win or lose?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Why are you so obsessed with Steve Bruce.

I'm not. Just debunking your misguided belief that Kean is the better option.

Bruce lost the dressing room, he also lost it at Blues too (one of the reasons he left them)

He wouldn't be the first manager to run his course at a club. Happens to the best of them. Souness was an absolute legend here but he ultimately lost the plot as well. Does that mean we should undermine the success he achieved?

...take those strikers out and look how much he spent, is that so difficult to understand, he spent lots of money and they were relegation fodder.

See what I mean? Since your main argument is so spurious, you have to emphasize this ONE POINT instead of looking at the bigger picture. I already said that Bruce flopped at Sunderland - but losing Bent & Gyan certainly didn't help matters. Why does that automatically discredit everything else he's achieved in the game up to that point?

No... Venkys are at fault, did you not understand that from the line "So hiring Kean and keeping him is the fault of Venkys"

Well duh. We all know Venky's are the root cause of our current misfortune. That doesn't somehow vindicate what Steve Kean has done here. The man is an abject failure as a manager and a duplicitous individual. Yet apparently you're picky enough to keep him.

Bloody hell you're hard work... Hodgson was manager of the YEAR EIGHT months previously at Fulham, he was picked up by West Brom in the SAME season, Bruce was manager of Wigan THREE seasons ago, can you not grasp the time difference and how the situations are completely different?

Not really, considering your p*ss-poor attempt at telling me how radically the game has changed since Bruce was at Wigan. Grasping at straws again, Imy.

No the point is if you got one fact wrong, how many others have you got wrong "by mistake", you can see where I am going, do I need to check everything as you clearly are getting wrong information from somewhere.

Stop dodging the point, Imy. That one oversight aside, the rest were all Bruce signings. Now that I've proven he can make bargain buys, I hope we can move on.

I could go on Topman, can you find a sarcy comment between 92 and 112 that I made against you? Deafening silence/ ignoring this post is what I expect, point number 6 and 5 are related and reflects your credibility which is virtually zip.

Why limit it to that time-frame? It wasn't long ago you were referring to me as your 'shadow' because I had the temerity to challenge you on your posts.

[chaddyrovers]

paul ince mk 2, we need experience not another novice, had two of them and we have nearly been relegated on 3 occasions!!

what experience did Hughes have before he took Rovers manager job, only manage Wales before???

He has been MK Dons manager now for since 10 May 2010. Has manage for 100 games and has won 48 of them.

Hughes only manage Wales for 41 games and only won 12 of them!!!

He would be my choice if we go down!!!

[K-Hod]

Imy's comparison of Bruce and Kean is cringeworthy. You're just arguing for the sake of it, even though somewhere I'm sure you know you're wrong.

[1864roverite]

Imy and TMan

I will settle the score for you both.

Kean is a c**t

Bruce is a limp co*k.

You two are floggiong a dead horse arguing the toss about Kean and Bruce.

Fact is Kean has ruined a top 10 team, destroyed a club from within, alienated the clubs own fans and has not got a clue on how to manage a team or use tactics.

Fact is bruce does have a slightly better record but he has never done anything like what Kean has.

Argument over chaps, Bruce is marginally better than Kean but both are prize pratts.

[Stuart]

Imy's comparison of Bruce and Kean is cringeworthy. You're just arguing for the sake of it, even though somewhere I'm sure you know you're wrong.

Topman and imy need to drop it now. It's a bit a like wishing for VD rather than herpes.

Fact is Bruce is a better manager than Kean. But he's not going to work for Venkys in a million years.

It's a moo point.

[gumboots]

Topman and imy need to drop it now. It's a bit a like wishing for VD rather than herpes.

Fact is Bruce is a better manager than Kean. But he's not going to work for Venkys in a million years.

It's a moo point.

moot or have Venkys taken up beef farming now despite the fact that cows are a protected species in India?

[Stuart]

moot or have Venkys taken up beef farming now despite the fact that cows are a protected species in India?

The point... is moo.

Sorry, really sad 'in-joke'. Although I'm probably the only one who gets it!

[Mattyblue]

The point... is moo.

Sorry, really sad 'in-joke'. Although I'm probably the only one who gets it!

Like a cow's opinion?

[Stuart]

Like a cow's opinion?

Well that's two of us!

[imy9]

Final post on the matter Topman:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadness

2. "I'm not. Just debunking your misguided belief that Kean is the better option."

Misguided in your opinion, Bruce would not improve us from where we are IMO (see what I did there) so why get him in? Stats are there so you hang onto the 1%, whats that a point or two over a season?

3. "See what I mean? Since your main argument is so spurious, you have to emphasize this ONE POINT instead of looking at the bigger picture. I already said that Bruce flopped at Sunderland - but losing Bent & Gyan certainly didn't help matters. Why does that automatically discredit everything else he's achieved in the game up to that point?"

My main argument is that Bruce would not improve us enough (if at all) to warrant swopping Kean, you probably feel that the local shopkeeper can do a better job.

So Kean is flopping but losing key players did not help matters, thats what you are saying right?

4. "Well duh. We all know Venky's are the root cause of our current misfortune. That doesn't somehow vindicate what Steve Kean has done here. The man is an abject failure as a manager and a duplicitous individual. Yet apparently you're picky enough to keep him."

Well you think I am a Venkys lover/Kean supporter even though I have never said such a thing, so perhaps the 'duh' is a little ironic, no?

Abject failure would be relegation- you are being melodramatic- and not for the first time either. He is NOT going anywhere and under the circumstances the club is under I would keep him instead of Bruce, thats my opinion, but you feel the urge to ram your opinion down peoples throats.

5. "Not really, considering your p*ss-poor attempt at telling me how radically the game has changed since Bruce was at Wigan. Grasping at straws again, Imy."

Ignored the original point and moving onto something else... the game has changed radically since Wigan, either that or Bruce cant sign decent players anymore, most of the ones at Sunderland are VERY average.

6. "Stop dodging the point, Imy. That one oversight aside, the rest were all Bruce signings. Now that I've proven he can make bargain buys, I hope we can move on."

Kean signed Yakubu- better than ANY player Bruce has signed at Wigan, JJ, Orr, Formica are all decent players, Kean can buy bargain players to then?

7. "Why limit it to that time-frame? It wasn't long ago you were referring to me as your 'shadow' because I had the temerity to challenge you on your posts."

Hold on we are talking on THIS thread, you say I need to look at myself, so I give you THREE examples on THIS thread to where you have made unnecessary sarcy comments and your reply is... look what you said to me in 2005? Stick to the point.

Temerity! :wacko: I dont mind people discussing issues with me but you tend to make sarcy comments after most posts that I make, then you get one in return and your little sensitive soul is moved, oh well...

I would stick to what you are good at finding booby pics and using them as avatars... (but you know they are dipping in quality, so change it when you get a break over Easter)

[Amo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadness

Um, kay?

Misguided in your opinion, Bruce would not improve us from where we are IMO (see what I did there) so why get him in? Stats are there so you hang onto the 1%, whats that a point or two over a season?

No, it's a fact that Bruce is a more successful manager than Kean. But since you don't deal with facts, believe what you will.

My main argument is that Bruce would not improve us enough (if at all) to warrant swopping Kean

See above.

you probably feel that the local shopkeeper can do a better job.

Give him a crash-course on FM and he couldn't do any worse.

So Kean is flopping but losing key players did not help matters, thats what you are saying right?

Didn't we cover this? Bruce did well initially at Sunderland but lost his way (and the upheaval of losing Bent & Gyan didn't help). Kean's been a disaster from day one, even when he did have top-class players at his disposal.

Well you think I am a Venkys lover/Kean supporter even though I have never said such a thing, so perhaps the 'duh' is a little ironic, no?

You're the one who said my hatred for Venky's & Kean is somehow clouding my judgement. Because, you know, they've done so much to keep the faith so far. You do have a strange way of looking at things.

Abject failure would be relegation- you are being melodramatic- and not for the first time either.

See what I mean?

He is NOT going anywhere and under the circumstances the club is under I would keep him instead of Bruce, thats my opinion, but you feel the urge to ram your opinion down peoples throats.

And yet you won't let this go, even when proven to be unequivocally wrong. So you're as much to blame as I am.

the game has changed radically since Wigan

Because you say so...? Gotcha.

either that or Bruce cant sign decent players anymore, most of the ones at Sunderland are VERY average.

8th in the league suggest they aren't that bad.

Kean signed Yakubu- better than ANY player Bruce has signed at Wigan, JJ, Orr, Formica are all decent players, Kean can buy bargain players to then?

I was waiting for that. Yakubu... What about Rochina, Petrovic, Vukcevic, Goodwillie, Modeste, Anderson, Ribiero? Nothing like a bit of selective memory, eh.

Hold on we are talking on THIS thread, you say I need to look at myself, so I give you THREE examples on THIS thread to where you have made unnecessary sarcy comments and your reply is... look what you said to me in 2005? Stick to the point.

Cry moar, Imy. If you can't take a little ribbing here and there, then you need to do a little growing up. I couldn't care less what you say to me, but don't act all innocent when you're just as prone to being snarky as I am.

I would stick to what you are good at finding booby pics and using them as avatars... (but you know they are dipping in quality, so change it when you get a break over Easter)

There goes the moral high-ground.

[imy9]

Deazel's initial post on here is refreshing to read and a well reasoned argument, lets hope Venky's see sense and either sell the club or actually invest in the first team squad otherwise we will continue to struggle in the PL (hope we are in there at the end of the season) regardless of the manager.

[Bizarre Gardening Accident]

Bit harsh on Kean this, let's at least compare him with Les Reed.

[John]

Or Steve Wigley.

[Riversider48]

These discussions are pointless.

Steve Kean is the perfect fit for Venky's and vice versa.

Proper managers would not accept the conditions Kean works under, no other owners would let an obvious incompetent crack on with no pressure to achieve results.

This is the best comment. Nothing more to be said.

[onlyonejackwalker]

"Ignored the original point and moving onto something else... the game has changed radically since Wigan, either that or Bruce cant sign decent players anymore, most of the ones at Sunderland are VERY average."

Not taking sides lads!!!

However, the Sunderland players are clearly above average as demonstrated by their amazing run of form and points gained since MO took over. They were four points ahead of us when Bruce was sacked and then took 18 or 19 points from 27 under MO. You cannot achieve that with poor players.

Qualified managers eh? Who needs them? Far better sticking with a total plank and suffering a relegation rollercoaster.

Bruce has forgotten more than Kean will ever know, but I would not want him at the Rovers.

[Peter]

Incredible debate RE. Kean against Bruce on the previous pages. Really quite incredible.

The only "pros" that the profoundly puzzling venkymob see in Steve Kean are that he's an obedient, malleable, media-savvy, sorry lapdog of a man - who's lack of courage and shame makes he and the Indian imbeciles paralysing lack of interest and ambition for all things Rovers a perfect marriage. "brilliant" was that fool Venkatesh's immortal conclusion of Kean's abilities and you can see why, when they say "jump" and he simply responds "how high?"

Would Steve Bruce or any other manager you would actually recognise as a "manager" - and not a Glaswegian charlatan in an ill-fitting suit - stand for the penny-pinching, cost-cutting nonsensical risks implemented by the redoubtable Rao brothers and their appalling battle-axe of a sister? All this perhaps makes "Stevie" Kean good husband material, but he's a woefully inadequate manager and that's that.

It's just an absolute sickener what's happening to the club and that some supporters are freely endorsing it all after a couple of paper-over-the-cracks victories - against motley sides - whilst media muppets stupidly champion the "Kean for manager of the season" campaign, simply rubs salt in the wound. The man is a pudding who's shortage of ability along with pitiful player recruitment has seen him re-write the chronicles in BRFC blundering over and over again. Worst run without a win? Easy done! 11 months without a clean sheet? With aplomb! Bottom at Christmas? No problem! Yet folk are blowing smoke up his back passage simply because he skips merrily from debacle to catastrophe with all the wide-eyed innocence of Buster Keaton.

Its like Ewood Park has been invaded by an occupying enemy force this last year: Williams and Finn depart and all sorts of undesirables run amok. The club was a fiercely proud David amongst a sea of insipid, opulent Goliath's under their almost infallible guidance and the sooner this unbearable mob of chumps disperse the sooner we can get back to being the football club we were prior to their arrival. Sadly, one fears Blackcomedy Rovers has plenty more mileage and that Kean will snaffle up the end-of-season accolades at the expense of the club and its terminal decline, whilst continuing to waffle about positives and momentum - not realising that momentum is best gathered downhill - and that's just where this shallow, ill-considered vanity project is heading, faster than a turd down a Twyfords.

The whole sorry shower really are an absolute affront to this proud club.