[Archived] Real Ale

[PAFELL]

This might help you pafell.... from t'internet.

"Lager is a type of beer.

There are two main types of beer, Ales and Lagers. Ale is a beer that uses top-fermenting yeast at higher temperatures for short periods of time. Lager is a beer that is fermented with bottom-fermenting yeast at lower temperatures for longer periods

of time (Lager comes from the german word Lagern which means 'to store'). Ales and Lagers then have their own subcategories, for example... Ales include, Stouts, Porters, Pale Ales, Wheat Ales, Lambics, etc. Lagers include: Pilsners, Helles, Bocks,

Oktoberfests/Marzen, Vienna, etc.

A beer's classification as an Ale or a Lager does not have any relation to it's flavor profile, generally speaking. A

Stout is much different than a Wheat Beer just as a Pilsner is much different than an Oktoberfest.

If someone asks if you want a Lager or a Beer, they shouldn't be serving beer."

Just goes to show that beer snobbery is based on sweet FA other then silly macho, entrenched beliefs tempered with a good dollop of jingoism. Also you having Carling on surely goes against your otherwise sound principles and is akin to choosing to stock the tragic and now terminated Watneys Red Barrell or Whitbread Trophy etc! You need sto take some advice on lager methinks.

Though lager is a keg beer and ale is from a cask. Were happy to remain in Camra's good beer guide as it brings folk in. When it comes to camra beer scores, they ignore - or don't score - anything that is from a keg.

To be honest carling is there from the previous folk who ran the club - some folk want it, so be it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

My drinking partner is a real ale buff but he'll have the occasional lager especially when it's a warm day. Even he'll admit it's a better thirst quencher. A cold pint of " Erdinger " wheat beer can't be beaten on a hot day. The thing that does our heads in is that he'll get a pint of " old farts best sheep dip " one night and it's fabulous. Next night it may be my round, I'll get him exactly the same pint and it's crap. He wants me to take it back and argue the toss with the bar staff. The variation is quite marked, ' it's a new barrel, it''s an old barrel, it's still a bit green '. He'll also say ' Don't go to that barmaid,

go to that one over there '. Do me a favour , just give me a drinkable pint for Keans sake.

Same with our favourite winter bottle, " Robinson's Old Tom" , some times it's great,other times it crap. You get a bottle of " Westmalle ", " Duval " or " Piraat "-similar strength beers and they're perfect 100% of the time. There's a lot of kean talked about British beer.

[thenodrog]

Though lager is a keg beer and ale is from a cask. Were happy to remain in Camra's good beer guide as it brings folk in. When it comes to camra beer scores, they ignore - or don't score - anything that is from a keg.

There's a lot of kean talked about British beer.

Invariably by the dinosaurs in camra.

Funniest bit about all this real ale stuff is that lots of ale sold as a particular favourite is not that brew at all! Lots of pub tenents fiddle the books by putting the odd cheaper cask on that has arrived on the back of a white van. No wonder your mate can't find continuity is it?

[Willie Eckerslike]

Invariably by the dinosaurs in camra.

Funniest bit about all this real ale stuff is that lots of ale sold as a particular favourite is not that brew at all! Lots of pub tenents fiddle the books by putting the odd cheaper cask on that has arrived on the back of a white van. No wonder your mate can't find continuity is it?

I seriously doubt that lots of ale sold is not that brew at all

Someone sells you a barrel out of a white van. You don't know what it will look or taste like but you are going to sell it on your bar as another beer that you conveniently have a pump clip for and hope it is the same colour and tastes roughly the same - @#/?

Regarding lager, many of the traditional continental lagers are fine beers, but you approach the average drinker and ask him or her to name a few lagers and they are unlikely to give you names like Weistephaner, Erdinger, Paulaner etc. but instead Carling, Carlsberg or Fosters. That, alongside the wonderful John Smiths smooth, Boddingtons smooth and even our own Thwaites smooth is why real ale drinkers seek out a pint of beer that hasn't been sterilised or pasteurised to a point of death so some commercial mass-producer can get maximum cellar life out of it.

Instead a real ale drinker can rest assured that their beer is a living entity with a unique taste. Yes, the taste will start to dwindle once the barrel has been tapped for more than a couple of days but a decent ale in a decent pub won't last that long anyway before its all gone.

The massive range of tastes found in the variety of real ales available readily in most areas of the UK will give a real ale drinker a great experience throughout the year, whether it be hot or cold outside.

Pafell - well done with the beer festival. There are three round here in May - not sure I'll get to taste everything but I'll have a bloody good try!

[thenodrog]

I seriously doubt that lots of ale sold is not that brew at all

Someone sells you a barrel out of a white van. You don't know what it will look or taste like but you are going to sell it on your bar as another beer that you conveniently have a pump clip for and hope it is the same colour and tastes roughly the same - @#/?

Suit yourself but lots of tennants are losing money with nowhere to turn to and the prospect of buying similar beer for effectively half price from white van man is not just a temptation but a necessity. I can tell you from the horses mouth that a local near me (shut now) was selling Flowers instead of Thwaites Bitter at weekends (personally I preferred the Flowers). Said tennant was on his way out and had lost a bundle to an unscrupulous brewery as so many do and was seeking to cut his losses from alternative income streams. Don't kid yourself that this is the only case. Expensive lager e.g. Carsberg Export and Stella is even more vulnerable to such swindles. You are too trusting. Best bit is that cask beers are easiest to fake cos they can vary so much.

btw were you being sarky? All those smooth beers you mentioned are keg beers aren't they? Smooth beer is prob the most contrived drink of them all.

[PAFELL]

Suit yourself but lots of tennants are losing money with nowhere to turn to and the prospect of buying similar beer for effectively half price from white van man is not just a temptation but a necessity. I can tell you from the horses mouth that a local near me (shut now) was selling Flowers instead of Thwaites Bitter at weekends (personally I preferred the Flowers). Said tennant was on his way out and had lost a bundle to an unscrupulous brewery as so many do and was seeking to cut his losses from alternative income streams. Don't kid yourself that this is the only case. Expensive lager e.g. Carsberg Export and Stella is even more vulnerable to such swindles. You are too trusting. Best bit is that cask beers are easiest to fake cos they can vary so much.

btw were you being sarky? All those smooth beers you mentioned are keg beers aren't they? Smooth beer is prob the most contrived drink of them all.

Your right a lot of tenants are losing money and stuck. Which is one reason why camra have had their campaign going on with regards to the pubco's. Sadly as soon as a pub does well, the brewery puts the rent up. These tied houses are limited to what beers they can sell. Ripped off by the brewery with regards to beer prices. which in turn has then to be passed on to the customer - who then looks for somewhere else to drink.

[PAFELL]

I seriously doubt that lots of ale sold is not that brew at all

Someone sells you a barrel out of a white van. You don't know what it will look or taste like but you are going to sell it on your bar as another beer that you conveniently have a pump clip for and hope it is the same colour and tastes roughly the same - @#/?

Regarding lager, many of the traditional continental lagers are fine beers, but you approach the average drinker and ask him or her to name a few lagers and they are unlikely to give you names like Weistephaner, Erdinger, Paulaner etc. but instead Carling, Carlsberg or Fosters. That, alongside the wonderful John Smiths smooth, Boddingtons smooth and even our own Thwaites smooth is why real ale drinkers seek out a pint of beer that hasn't been sterilised or pasteurised to a point of death so some commercial mass-producer can get maximum cellar life out of it.

Instead a real ale drinker can rest assured that their beer is a living entity with a unique taste. Yes, the taste will start to dwindle once the barrel has been tapped for more than a couple of days but a decent ale in a decent pub won't last that long anyway before its all gone.

The massive range of tastes found in the variety of real ales available readily in most areas of the UK will give a real ale drinker a great experience throughout the year, whether it be hot or cold outside.

Pafell - well done with the beer festival. There are three round here in May - not sure I'll get to taste everything but I'll have a bloody good try!

Thanks - I still find it hard to believe a mild sold out first, a weak one as well - it was good though (Jamacian Mild by Tyne Bank) My next festival will be at Western lawns in Eastbourne end of May. Doing a tour of dark Star brewery in June, who always look after us.

[Willie Eckerslike]

Suit yourself but lots of tennants are losing money with nowhere to turn to and the prospect of buying similar beer for effectively half price from white van man is not just a temptation but a necessity. I can tell you from the horses mouth that a local near me (shut now) was selling Flowers instead of Thwaites Bitter at weekends (personally I preferred the Flowers). Said tennant was on his way out and had lost a bundle to an unscrupulous brewery as so many do and was seeking to cut his losses from alternative income streams. Don't kid yourself that this is the only case. Expensive lager e.g. Carsberg Export and Stella is even more vulnerable to such swindles. You are too trusting. Best bit is that cask beers are easiest to fake cos they can vary so much.

btw were you being sarky? All those smooth beers you mentioned are keg beers aren't they? Smooth beer is prob the most contrived drink of them all.

Course I was being sarky!

As you say, smooth is about as artificial as you can get.

I can see the attraction of a landlord swapping a couple of lagers to save brass, I don't often drink them but I can't tell a lot of difference between em

As for the tenants in tied houses, I do feel for them but I wonder how they got themselves into a situation where they have signed an agreement that allows one of their major costs to be increased on a regular basis.

Are the rises known when they sign up (e.g. if you hit x volume of sales / profit, your rent will go up by y or are the rises at the discretion of the brewery / pubco?). How the heck do they put a business plan together if it's the latter?

I was in The Postal Order in Blackburn a few weeks ago and they were selling Wainwright for £1.95 a pint. With my 50p off Camra voucher that became £1.45. Yet the pubs tied to Thwaites in the same town are having to sell the same beer at anywhere from £2.60 to £3.10. What chance do they have?

[thenodrog]

I was in The Postal Order in Blackburn a few weeks ago and they were selling Wainwright for £1.95 a pint. With my 50p off Camra voucher that became £1.45. Yet the pubs tied to Thwaites in the same town are having to sell the same beer at anywhere from £2.60 to £3.10. What chance do they have?

Sell Flowers through the pump? I do know that wainwrights is light coloured with a distinctive taste but I'm sure something similar is being traded out there.

I must say also that I've drunk wainwrights in different pubs and noted that the taste does vary pub to pub and sometimes barrell to barrell.

btw I shouldn't be suprised if they could even buy a barrell or two of Wainwrights through their friendly white van man!

There was a system (pubmaster?) that recorded all beer sales and matched them up with purchases to ensure dodges couldn't be worked but I'm not sure how many pubs it was installed in. Pretty pointless too whena tenant is on his 3 month notice.

[LeChuck]

If anyone is going up to the Lake District in this nice weather I highly recommend stopping by the Prince of Wales in Foxfield. I went there on Sunday and they had a great selection of ales I hadn't tried before plus some excellent whisky. Really friendly atmosphere and home made pasties are amazing. Great prices as well, pints/whisky ~ £2.50 and food less than a tenner.

http://www.princeofwalesfoxfield.co.uk/

4.5 stars on Trip Advisor as well: http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g1792418-d1792421-Reviews-Prince_of_Wales-Foxfield_Lake_District_Cumbria_England.html

[PAFELL]

Sell Flowers through the pump? I do know that wainwrights is light coloured with a distinctive taste but I'm sure something similar is being traded out there.

I must say also that I've drunk wainwrights in different pubs and noted that the taste does vary pub to pub and sometimes barrell to barrell.

btw I shouldn't be suprised if they could even buy a barrell or two of Wainwrights through their friendly white van man!

There was a system (pubmaster?) that recorded all beer sales and matched them up with purchases to ensure dodges couldn't be worked but I'm not sure how many pubs it was installed in. Pretty pointless too whena tenant is on his 3 month notice.

Number of reasons for things like that. Could be a bad barrel. But normally it is down to the landlord either not having or keeping a good cellar or not cleaning the lines properly or often enough.

[thenodrog]

Number of reasons for things like that. Could be a bad barrel. But normally it is down to the landlord either not having or keeping a good cellar or not cleaning the lines properly or often enough.

Exactly Pafell. That comment was in response to Willie who thinks that what it says on the pump automatically means that's whats coming up the pipes. Also that is why it is as easy to get away with a 'similar' cask ale as a lager. White van man does know what he is doing. Anyway no sweat..... we've all been eating horsemeat for decades without any health issues and simply to increase the profits of the large retail outlets so why should beer be any different?

[PAFELL]

Exactly Pafell. That comment was in response to Willie who thinks that what it says on the pump automatically means that's whats coming up the pipes. Also that is why it is as easy to get away with a 'similar' cask ale as a lager. White van man does know what he is doing. Anyway no sweat..... we've all been eating horsemeat for decades without any health issues and simply to increase the profits of the large retail outlets so why should beer be any different?

You are maybe forgetting something. The where and from who, you buy your beer from. Only a foolish landlord will want a reputation of selling bad beer. It takes hard work and long hours to get a decent reputation with regards your beer (life in general) but very quick to lose. But that is equally with regards to who you use to buy and deliver your beer. People my boss / mate deals with we know if we get a dodgy barrel, he will take it away with no questions asked. Each party knows they are not going to lie to each other.

But of course, as in all trades, there is the white van driver who will sell anything. But it takes a seller and a buyer for it to be successful.

Today, we are spoilt for choice with regards to ale. It has been suggested that it is one of the fastest growing business in the country at the moment. Micro breweries popping up all over the place. I was told recently that just in East Sussex and Kent there are 78 breweries - that is a lot in my view. It is these small breweries we like to support. Even if it means I will go in my own van to pick it up (It is red )

You have two decent breweries in your area. Number 39 in Darwen and Three B's in Tockholes - each do good beers. Both worth supporting. Last time I was in Number 39 it was £2.00 a pint..

[thenodrog]

You are maybe forgetting something. The where and from who, you buy your beer from. Only a foolish landlord will want a reputation of selling bad beer. It takes hard work and long hours to get a decent reputation with regards your beer (life in general) but very quick to lose. But that is equally with regards to who you use to buy and deliver your beer. People my boss / mate deals with we know if we get a dodgy barrel, he will take it away with no questions asked. Each party knows they are not going to lie to each other.

Up here we call it 'Blackpool bitter'.

You may also be forgetting something too pafell. Thats that a tied house can only sell the beers made available to them by the brewery / owner. There are lots of beers out there that are better than those available. Listen I'm not saying it happens all the time but weekends, warm weather and bank holidays do lend themselves to a bit of profiteering.

Just as an aside I had a couple of visits to the Dressers Arms a few months ago. They have loads of different beers available and somewhat spoiled for choice I had a couple of pints of their own Dressers ale, bloody good it was too. My second visit some three weeks later and the same beer was unrecognisable. A very 'hoppy' flavour and nowhere near as quaffable. If that was the same beer then either the pipes hadn't been cleaned for yonks OR I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

[Al]

Up here we call it 'Blackpool bitter'.

You may also be forgetting something too pafell. Thats that a tied house can only sell the beers made available to them by the brewery / owner. There are lots of beers out there that are better than those available. Listen I'm not saying it happens all the time but weekends, warm weather and bank holidays do lend themselves to a bit of profiteering.

Just as an aside I had a couple of visits to the Dressers Arms a few months ago. They have loads of different beers available and somewhat spoiled for choice I had a couple of pints of their own Dressers ale, bloody good it was too. My second visit some three weeks later and the same beer was unrecognisable. A very 'hoppy' flavour and nowhere near as quaffable. If that was the same beer then either the pipes hadn't been cleaned for yonks OR I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

I hope to God that the pipes hadn't been cleaned.

[PAFELL]

Up here we call it 'Blackpool bitter'.

You may also be forgetting something too pafell. Thats that a tied house can only sell the beers made available to them by the brewery / owner. There are lots of beers out there that are better than those available. Listen I'm not saying it happens all the time but weekends, warm weather and bank holidays do lend themselves to a bit of profiteering.

Just as an aside I had a couple of visits to the Dressers Arms a few months ago. They have loads of different beers available and somewhat spoiled for choice I had a couple of pints of their own Dressers ale, bloody good it was too. My second visit some three weeks later and the same beer was unrecognisable. A very 'hoppy' flavour and nowhere near as quaffable. If that was the same beer then either the pipes hadn't been cleaned for yonks OR I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

Tied houses - how or why folk get involved with them is beyond me.

Try number 39 in darwen & Three B's in tockholes. Would be curious to your opinion. What do you prefer, Dark or light beer?

I hope to God that the pipes hadn't been cleaned.

??????????????

[thenodrog]

What do you prefer, Dark or light beer?

Light beer like wainwrights. I like IPA's too and some of these newer lighter / citrusey beers (which I understand have the hops added later in the brewing process). But...more often than not I prefer a good lager.

Whatever........ I bloody hate 'sour brown liquid' and especially if it's flat. I rem traipsing around Banbury from 5.30pm one night on a midweek pub crawl with wiggy (bit of a cask ale fan seeking to convert me). We had a pint in just about every pub (12 at least and all empty save for one man, his dog and us!) and they were all absolutely bloody awful. I gave in at 10pm and went onto draught Red Stripe.... I can't tell you how clear, cold and good that tasted by then.

[colin]

I had a beautiful couple of pints of Snowdonia Ale at The Padern Lake Hotel in Llanberis on Saturday.

A really refreshing and light & hoppy ale.

Mind you, I'd just climbed up & down Snowdon so I was easily pleased

[PAFELL]

wainwrights tonight

Light beer like wainwrights. I like IPA's too and some of these newer lighter / citrusey beers (which I understand have the hops added later in the brewing process). But...more often than not I prefer a good lager.

Whatever........ I bloody hate 'sour brown liquid' and especially if it's flat. I rem traipsing around Banbury from 5.30pm one night on a midweek pub crawl with wiggy. We had a pint in just about every pub and they were all absolutely bloody awful. I gave in at 10pm and went onto draught Red Stripe.... I can't tell you how good that tasted by then.

I had a bottle of wainwrights tonight - not bad in a bottle. I also like the IPA's, though I will try dark beers as well. Currently torn between Thornbridges Jaipor and dark Star's American pale ale.as to which I prefer.

[LeChuck]

Seen Dark Star in two pubs in Manchester that I go to every so often. Made me quite happy!

[PAFELL]

Seen Dark Star in two pubs in Manchester that I go to every so often. Made me quite happy!

Probable Hophead 3.8% and American pale ale 4.7% - both really good beers. Interesting new brewery in Manchester called Privateer

[Doug]

Up here we call it 'Blackpool bitter'.

You may also be forgetting something too pafell. Thats that a tied house can only sell the beers made available to them by the brewery / owner. There are lots of beers out there that are better than those available. Listen I'm not saying it happens all the time but weekends, warm weather and bank holidays do lend themselves to a bit of profiteering.

Just as an aside I had a couple of visits to the Dressers Arms a few months ago. They have loads of different beers available and somewhat spoiled for choice I had a couple of pints of their own Dressers ale, bloody good it was too. My second visit some three weeks later and the same beer was unrecognisable. A very 'hoppy' flavour and nowhere near as quaffable. If that was the same beer then either the pipes hadn't been cleaned for yonks OR I'll show my arse on the town hall steps.

There are so many reasons why breweries struggle to replicate beer and I won't bore you with too many of them, (in this post). The excuse of 'dirty lines' and 'bad barrel' are legitimate possibilities, albeit, used too often to hide 'poor' procedures at the brewery.

Many small brewers will not buy or store their brewing ingredients correctly, mash, boil, drop and ferment at the wrong temperatures, hop at the wrong times, will not use the correct cleaning process or chemicals in the brewery, clean and inspect their barrels as they should, store their beer correctly, transport their beer correctly etc.

A lot of micro brewers have only a 'process' knowledge of brewing, whereas the large brewery would only employ several 'time served' brewers with a minimum of a brewing degree, who report to a head brewer.

[Doug]

Light beer like wainwrights. I like IPA's too and some of these newer lighter / citrusey beers (which I understand have the hops added later in the brewing process). But...more often than not I prefer a good lager.

Whatever........ I bloody hate 'sour brown liquid' and especially if it's flat. I rem traipsing around Banbury from 5.30pm one night on a midweek pub crawl with wiggy (bit of a cask ale fan seeking to convert me). We had a pint in just about every pub (12 at least and all empty save for one man, his dog and us!) and they were all absolutely bloody awful. I gave in at 10pm and went onto draught Red Stripe.... I can't tell you how clear, cold and good that tasted by then.

You remembered

[thenodrog]

There are so many reasons why breweries struggle to replicate beer and I won't bore you with too many of them, (in this post). The excuse of 'dirty lines' and 'bad barrel' are legitimate possibilities, albeit, used too often to hide 'poor' procedures at the brewery.

Many small brewers will not buy or store their brewing ingredients correctly, mash, boil, drop and ferment at the wrong temperatures, hop at the wrong times, will not use the correct cleaning process or chemicals in the brewery, clean and inspect their barrels as they should, store their beer correctly, transport their beer correctly etc.

A lot of micro brewers have only a 'process' knowledge of brewing, whereas the large brewery would only employ several 'time served' brewers with a minimum of a brewing degree, who report to a head brewer.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons on here. Dissing the little micro breweries for pumping out dodgy cask ale for all they are worth and giving a plug for the larger commercial breweries mass producing sour brown liquid will leave some around here literally apoplectic with rage.

[colin]

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons on here. Dissing the little micro breweries for pumping out dodgy cask ale for all they are worth and giving a plug for the larger commercial breweries mass producing sour brown liquid will leave some around here literally apoplectic with rage.

I doubt it. You are just being your provocative self