[Archived] Fans Forum pre-meet

[Ste B]

1) The Action Group was not formally known as Brag, not sure where you invented this mis-information from or how many times it needs explaining to you

2) I never created an argument i asked for clarity on why it was asked in the first place, as it was clearly made in reference to the group, no argument, just clarity.

Thought we'd established this already

i've no problems at all with Mark raising this question with the FF members. If we put something in the minutes it is there to be questioned. I'll explain it to him in person on Friday or at the game on Saturday, as I think it may explain the context a little better than some poor attempts at putting it into writing here.

[glen9mullan]

1) The Action Group was not formally known as Brag, not sure where you invented this mis-information from or how many times it needs explaining to you

2) I never created an argument i asked for clarity on why it was asked in the first place, as it was clearly made in reference to the group, no argument, just clarity.

Thought we'd established this and left it there already

I wouldnt bother getting involved in going over old ground, he does not seem to admit things when he is wrong , and tries anything to get a reaction

i've no problems at all with Mark raising this question with the FF members. If we put something in the minutes it is there to be questioned. I'll explain it to him in person on Friday or at the game on Saturday, as I think it may explain the context a little better than some poor attempts at putting it into writing here.

Thanks Ste for a proper response as always

[AggyBlue]

It just looks like somebody asked a question or they sort assurrance. Aftterall with so many groups now in exsistance, it appears to be a reasonable question, the person wanted assurance the club would not give one group - whoever that group was - prefereance over another. Person got the answer, and did not push it any further. That should have been the end of it.

"AB expressed some concern that the club management were favouring contact with other supporters’ groups rather than the well established Forum"

There's only one way to read that sentence and it isn't how you read it.

[Parsonblue]

This thread surely explains why the fanbase will never be united. Too many egos and too many groups more concerned with their own self importance than anything else. This petty bickering between minority groups, each claiming to be the voice of the fans is totally embarrassing. Thank goodness none of them speak for me, or indeed I suspect many other supporters.

[darrenrover]

Why can someone from the various action groups/supporters bodies not take the lead in an effort to unite with common objectives and proposed solutions?

Only then will they be taken seriously by the majority IMO.

Divide and conquer has always been a popular and successful tactic. I think that fact needs to be considered and overcome by all the factions and personal egos and agendas forgotten about, if a fans voice is really to be taken seriously by the club.

[T.J.Newton]

"AB expressed some concern that the club management were favouring contact with other supporters’ groups rather than the well established Forum"

There's only one way to read that sentence and it isn't how you read it.

that seems like a pretty legitimate thing to express concern about by the person that was expressing the concern and in the context that concern was expressed, end of story!!!!!

[AggyBlue]

end of story!!!!!

Hardly

[AndyNeil]

I've just re-read the minutes from the meeting and there were 4 apologises (ie people from the FF who didn't attend) for this particular meeting - if fact IIRC thereare apologises at 99% of the meetings I've attended. I can honestly say that I quite clearly remember the secretary state these were due to "work commitments".

I hope this clears the matter up for you.

[jehrover]

I've heard the same story as Meadows as to why the Chairman was not in attendance.

Apparently Shebby had previously agreed to attend the Fans Forums, so when it became known that he would not be going the Chairman attempted to take action and not attend, hoping that his fellow forum members would follow suit and boycott themselves. When it became clear that his fellow members would not participate in his non-attendance stunt I believe there was quite an uproar among members of the forum which threatened to spill over.

So 'work commitments' was probably the excuse given in the minutes but it seems surprising that myself and others have both been told a similar story and this explains both Shebby's absence and the Chairman's.

[AndyNeil]

When it became clear that his fellow members would not participate in his non-attendance stunt I believe there was quite an uproar among members of the forum which threatened to spill over.

I think somebody might have been telling you stories there...

[Glenn]

Having to move it forward 30 mins to accommodate Mr Agnew caught a lot of people out. I struggle to make the drive from Leeds on time to make the start of the meetings as it is, so I gave serious thought to not attending on work reasons.I also don't attend Sir Bill's "Blackburn United" meetings for the same reason.

I wouldn't like people to think I was supporting some kind of anti-Shebby boycott just because I couldn't make the meeting. Truth is, we'll probably never known exactly why he couldn't attend, so we can only go with what he said.

[mhead]

It was my impression that the purpose of the Fans Forum had been overtaken by the cruel vandalism of our Club over the last 20 months. Clearly it was not the right vehicle for the Protest actions required(BRAG) and the take-over ideas that needed to be launched(BRSIT) which are responses to the Fans Agenda moving away from health and safety,tickets and travel to the 'survival' issues well-aired on this MessageBoard since the Trust was trying to dispose of Jack's Legacy. Although the new 'management' now want to build bridges with the fans , the Fans Forum is not the place for this -since events have long overtaken the remit of this 'friendly' body.

[SAS]

Why can someone from the various action groups/supporters bodies not take the lead in an effort to unite with common objectives and proposed solutions?

Because members from the groups might lose their title by having to share with others.

Titles are so important don't you know....

[Glenn]

Whilst there are still good people in the club trying to do the right things from the inside, it still serves a purpose. It also acts as handy central point as the vast majority of the larger supporters groups and communities do have reps on there (though sadly not the action group nor vital).

It has changed a lot since John & Tom's day, but it still see it has some worth (or I wouldn't put the time and effort into attending).

[Glenn]

Why can someone from the various action groups/supporters bodies not take the lead in an effort to unite with common objectives and proposed solutions?

Bill Taylor is trying to organise this, and thankfully he seems to have realised what I didn't at first. The answer isn't less groups, it's simply getting the groups to work together toward common aims.

People always wants to be part of a group they feel best represents them and that wont change, there are many people who no matter how much a group corrects various mistakes and changes it's personnel, they'll never want to be part of, even if it shares common aims. So the answer is actually MORE groups, who have the autonomy to stand alone when they want, but can also combine their efforts with others on common issues and currently, everyone has a LOT of common issues.

That's why I take such great offence in the current intergroup rivalry, point scoring and attempting to out-do each other. It helps nobody. There will NEVER be a single dominant group, nor should there be. Each group has it's own merits and represent their membership accordingly.

Personally, I'd like to see all these groups meet with the club en-masse (as well as individually if they want) to push the agenda items where there are common ground. Once upon a time that was obviously the fans forum, but as some groups are (were? I haven't pursued it recently) unwilling to join, then it makes sense an alternative (Sir Bill initive hopefully?) is found.

Wasting energy competing to be the sole dominant group that is never going to happen (or we'd see it in politics) is just silly. People will always want an alternative and one will always surface. We should embrace that rather than let it be our downfall.

[arbitro]

Bill Taylor is trying to organise this, and thankfully he seems to have realised what I didn't at first. The answer isn't less groups, it's simply getting the groups to work together toward common aims.

People always wants to be part of a group they feel best represents them and that wont change, there are many people who no matter how much a group corrects various mistakes and changes it's personnel, they'll never want to be part of, even if it shares common aims. So the answer is actually MORE groups, who have the autonomy to stand alone when they want, but can also combine their efforts with others on common issues and currently, everyone has a LOT of common issues.

That's why I take such great offence in the current intergroup rivalry, point scoring and attempting to out-do each other. It helps nobody. There will NEVER be a single dominant group, nor should there be. Each group has it's own merits and represent their membership accordingly.

Personally, I'd like to see all these groups meet with the club en-masse (as well as individually if they want) to push the agenda items where there are common ground. Once upon a time that was obviously the fans forum, but as some groups are (were? I haven't pursued it recently) unwilling to join, then it makes sense an alternative (Sir Bill initive hopefully?) is found.

Wasting energy competing to be the sole dominant group that is never going to happen (or we'd see it in politics) is just silly. People will always want an alternative and one will always surface. We should embrace that rather than let it be our downfall.

I disagree with your less groups comment. Surely if you are all working towards the same goals they could/should be represented by one group. Rather than club representatives meeting with several different groups a regular meeting could be set up with one group of elected representatives. This would then strengthen the membership through numbers and some of the pedantic and petty arguments would be kept in house. In my experience some people like their little positions of power and they wouldn't want to give them up or lose them. I have no leaning toward any group but like many other fans find the squabbling childish, irritating and more importantly unproductive.

[Glenn]

That doesn't work though. Well, in the very very short term it would, as there are a couple of overriding issues 99.9% of people want addresses (and even then, why should .1% be unrepresented ?), What happens when that one group supports some things you disagree with? You can see on here how hard it is to get even a majority view on something, let alone absolute backing. Even something as clear cut as Hillsborough ended up with three separate groups. It's just human nature, as soon as people feel they aren't properly represented, they get like minded people together and organise their own representation, others then see this new group, some see it probably better represents their views better and switch support/membership/aliegence.

Personally I feel everyone should have a voice and no single group can ever hope to achieve that, they'd end up being expected to argue both for and against the same things. It's one of the reasons we enforce neutrality on ourselves when running this forum. There is no way on earth we could ever try to represent all our members, it's stupid to even try. (We did try that many years ago in the form of BRISA, but those were different times, without the problems we face today).

[glen9mullan]

That doesn't work though. Well, in the very very short term it would, as there are a couple of overriding issues 99.9% of people want addresses (and even then, why should .1% be unrepresented ?), What happens when that one group supports some things you disagree with? You can see on here how hard it is to get even a majority view on something, let alone absolute backing. Even something as clear cut as Hillsborough ended up with three separate groups. It's just human nature, as soon as people feel they aren't properly represented, they get like minded people together and organise their own representation, others then see this new group, some see it probably better represents their views better and switch support/membership/aliegence.

Personally I feel everyone should have a voice and no single group can ever hope to achieve that, they'd end up being expected to argue both for and against the same things. It's one of the reasons we enforce neutrality on ourselves when running this forum. There is no way on earth we could ever try to represent all our members, it's stupid to even try. (We did try that many years ago in the form of BRISA, but those were different times, without the problems we face today).

The only way once voice can be achieved is by it being an elected voice recognised by the club, and elected by the whole supporter base and annually put up for re-election.. An unelected voice will never suffice as its those in it, who choses who joins. Its not the way things should be done.

The collaberation meeting on Friday was attended by just two entities, but its obvious from some remarks last week that these meetings are not relayed back to the other standing individuals on committee's/forums . That in itself brings about more problems than solutions. Some groups are keen to work togther and so many people post on here, why dont people stop the bashing, ego tripping etc and work together. That can only be achieved if people take part in the platform someone has provided for people to do that.

Its not about groups or people its about Blackburn Rovers and trying as supporters to get the club to not only understand the growing issues but to act upon them. We have a meeting later and as usual we will report back.

The first step for many is a bit of honesty imo, Our mission statement is on our website as is every committee meeting we have, we minute everything good or bad, success or failures. We debate for hours, last nights committee meeting took 5 and half hours.

We are not a protest group, no protest has been organised for 5 months, but people will still class us as that, thats life, we move on. What we do take offence to is supporters having a go for not attending away games, then when we do abusing us, and making it so uncomfortable that we can't even go to the toilet . This is not done because of group views, but rather people's powet trips to not want to see others doing something for others. Some good work has been done by the group, and its come along way, Having the MP's , The Mayor etc as official members of the group shows the transformation

I dont want this to sound like a victim card or anything, My guilt is I made a stand, nothing more nothing less. This season alone, my pregnant wife has ben attacked, my 2 year old daughter has been knocked out of her mums arms and landed on the next row. I have been approached in my seat at 2 of the three away games and threatened, abused and provoked to try and gain a reaction. I have had supporters rather than supporting the team and singing for the team, singing my name hoping I die. Forgive for my ignorance but what did I do wrong? Apart from give a legal platform for supporters to air their views. Let the media know the majority of the supporter views. Open communication with the club which is progressing quickly. Set up a supporter group with a democratically elected committee which people can join and take part in things like affordable away travel.

The Action Group does not have a problem with anyone, always want to work with everyone, never missed a colaberation meeting, but is always targeted at games as the group people want to get violent with. Well getting violent with people is not supporting the team, and is far worse than anything Venkys or Kean has done the last two years.

The common goal I'd like to think is a well run club for supporters to enjoy for generations to come, but a minority of people's common goal is to ensure they are sitting at the captains table, when in truth its not important and is even less important if our club disappears.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

. This season alone, my pregnant wife has ben attacked, my 2 year old daughter has been knocked out of her mums arms and landed on the next row. I have been approached in my seat at 2 of the three away games and threatened, abused and provoked to try and gain a reaction. I have had supporters rather than supporting the team and singing for the team, singing my name hoping I die.

Sorry to hear that glen...some f'kin sad individuals following this club at the moment.

[glen9mullan]

Sorry to hear that glen...some f'kin sad individuals following this club at the moment.

Thanks, as I said, I dont want people to give me or my family sympathy for it, I just want those responsible to get over themselves and just leave me and my familly alone to enjoy a tranquil life, and a day out at the football. I dont make other people's lives a misery when I go football, and don't feel mine should be made one. I hate going the games now, but I will not let the haters win

[T4E]

I dont want this to sound like a victim card or anything, My guilt is I made a stand, nothing more nothing less. This season alone, my pregnant wife has ben attacked, my 2 year old daughter has been knocked out of her mums arms and landed on the next row. I have been approached in my seat at 2 of the three away games and threatened, abused and provoked to try and gain a reaction. I have had supporters rather than supporting the team and singing for the team, singing my name hoping I die. Forgive for my ignorance but what did I do wrong? Apart from give a legal platform for supporters to air their views. Let the media know the majority of the supporter views. Open communication with the club which is progressing quickly. Set up a supporter group with a democratically elected committee which people can join and take part in things like affordable away travel.

As much as you'll say you shouldnt have to do this - and I agree that you shouldnt - wouldnt it be an idea to leave the pregnant wife and 2 year old daughter at home? You know that this sort of stuff is going on, the only responsible thing to do is to not put them in danger - as much as I admire you standing your ground there's way more important things in life than this football club.

[glen9mullan]

As much as you'll say you shouldnt have to do this - and I agree that you shouldnt - wouldnt it be an idea to leave the pregnant wife and 2 year old daughter at home? You know that this sort of stuff is going on, the only responsible thing to do is to not put them in danger - as much as I admire you standing your ground there's way more important things in life than this football club.

Both are season ticket holders, and weekend is family time, we choose to spend it as a family at football , Away trips are a long old haul and take up all saturday, This weekend my daughter spent Friday and Saturday at her Grandma's the longest she has been away from me n laura since she was born, purely for her own safety. Laura loves the footie, and the chance to spend quality time with me , she wont have any of it, she wants to go, and she should not fear having to go

[arbitro]

That doesn't work though. Well, in the very very short term it would, as there are a couple of overriding issues 99.9% of people want addresses (and even then, why should .1% be unrepresented ?), What happens when that one group supports some things you disagree with? You can see on here how hard it is to get even a majority view on something, let alone absolute backing. Even something as clear cut as Hillsborough ended up with three separate groups. It's just human nature, as soon as people feel they aren't properly represented, they get like minded people together and organise their own representation, others then see this new group, some see it probably better represents their views better and switch support/membership/aliegence.

Personally I feel everyone should have a voice and no single group can ever hope to achieve that, they'd end up being expected to argue both for and against the same things. It's one of the reasons we enforce neutrality on ourselves when running this forum. There is no way on earth we could ever try to represent all our members, it's stupid to even try. (We did try that many years ago in the form of BRISA, but those were different times, without the problems we face today).

Are you in a trade union Glenn? I am in one and I don't need any other representation to look after mine (and many others) interests. I trust them to look after my welfare and best interets and they have access to specialist services if required. My original point was about too many cooks and that is what I am seeing now. I don't want to labour this but surely any issues could be thrashed out by one group only who the club could recognise as the official voice for all supporters.

[yoda]

Both are season ticket holders, and weekend is family time, we choose to spend it as a family at football , Away trips are a long old haul and take up all saturday, This weekend my daughter spent Friday and Saturday at her Grandma's the longest she has been away from me n laura since she was born, purely for her own safety. Laura loves the footie, and the chance to spend quality time with me , she wont have any of it, she wants to go, and she should not fear having to go

All power to you glen, the morons hould be ashamed of themselfs

COCO OUT

[arbitro]

The only way once voice can be achieved is by it being an elected voice recognised by the club, and elected by the whole supporter base and annually put up for re-election.. An unelected voice will never suffice as its those in it, who choses who joins. Its not the way things should be done.

The collaberation meeting on Friday was attended by just two entities, but its obvious from some remarks last week that these meetings are not relayed back to the other standing individuals on committee's/forums . That in itself brings about more problems than solutions. Some groups are keen to work togther and so many people post on here, why dont people stop the bashing, ego tripping etc and work together. That can only be achieved if people take part in the platform someone has provided for people to do that.

Its not about groups or people its about Blackburn Rovers and trying as supporters to get the club to not only understand the growing issues but to act upon them. We have a meeting later and as usual we will report back.

The first step for many is a bit of honesty imo, Our mission statement is on our website as is every committee meeting we have, we minute everything good or bad, success or failures. We debate for hours, last nights committee meeting took 5 and half hours.

We are not a protest group, no protest has been organised for 5 months, but people will still class us as that, thats life, we move on. What we do take offence to is supporters having a go for not attending away games, then when we do abusing us, and making it so uncomfortable that we can't even go to the toilet . This is not done because of group views, but rather people's powet trips to not want to see others doing something for others. Some good work has been done by the group, and its come along way, Having the MP's , The Mayor etc as official members of the group shows the transformation

I dont want this to sound like a victim card or anything, My guilt is I made a stand, nothing more nothing less. This season alone, my pregnant wife has ben attacked, my 2 year old daughter has been knocked out of her mums arms and landed on the next row. I have been approached in my seat at 2 of the three away games and threatened, abused and provoked to try and gain a reaction. I have had supporters rather than supporting the team and singing for the team, singing my name hoping I die. Forgive for my ignorance but what did I do wrong? Apart from give a legal platform for supporters to air their views. Let the media know the majority of the supporter views. Open communication with the club which is progressing quickly. Set up a supporter group with a democratically elected committee which people can join and take part in things like affordable away travel.

The Action Group does not have a problem with anyone, always want to work with everyone, never missed a colaberation meeting, but is always targeted at games as the group people want to get violent with. Well getting violent with people is not supporting the team, and is far worse than anything Venkys or Kean has done the last two years.

The common goal I'd like to think is a well run club for supporters to enjoy for generations to come, but a minority of people's common goal is to ensure they are sitting at the captains table, when in truth its not important and is even less important if our club disappears.

Absolutlely scandalous Glen that you should have to put up with that. I hope the big, brave lads who do that are proud of themselves. You should really get the police involved if it is that serious mate.