[Archived] Local Elections

[thenodrog]

If Britain cannot feed its population in the event of a "disaster" then the whole world is in trouble.

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/02/2011/125501/uk-self-sufficiency-in-food-how-bad-is-it.htm

We are only able to produce 60% of what we need. I thought you'd have known that, If / when and serious economic / or physical disaster strikes thats approx 26million who will starve. Survival of the fittest will ensue.

[colin]

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/02/2011/125501/uk-self-sufficiency-in-food-how-bad-is-it.htm

We are only able to produce 60% of what we need. I thought you'd have known that, If / when and serious economic / or physical disaster strikes thats approx 26million who will starve. Survival of the fittest will ensue.

A thread on local elections leads to this.........marvellous

[Steve Moss]

http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/15/02/2011/125501/uk-self-sufficiency-in-food-how-bad-is-it.htm

We are only able to produce 60% of what we need. I thought you'd have known that, If / when and serious economic / or physical disaster strikes thats approx 26million who will starve. Survival of the fittest will ensue.

Despite the criticisms of the USA, it would have to be such a huge disaster that it would prevent us from intervening to help our best ally. Which we would and could do, considering that we are at 130% food self-sufficiency.

I also like the Bill Clinton has acknowledged that he, Congressional Democrats and Congressional Republicans were wrong to oppose George Bush's humanitarian efforts to encourage African food self-sufficiency: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-202_162-4542268.html

So much for the "evil" George Bush.

[thenodrog]

A thread on local elections leads to this.........marvellous

Thank you for contributing your 'wisdom' to the debate. Very enlightening I'm sure, and I can see world heads of state beating a path to your door as we speak for more thoughts from Chairman Colin. However I seriously doubt it's all that marvellous. "I think you are just being your usual provocative self. Again."

[jim mk2]

T "I think you are just being your usual provocative self. Again."

As an Extreme Right Winger no doubt you have a Final Solution to the population "problem" (which doesn't exist but never mind).

How about Muslims and "Indopaks" (your word) first, starting with the women and children ?

On the other hand, our lazy, fat-arsed farmers could get off their taxpayer-subsidised backsides and start producing more food.

Anyway, where were we ? Ah yes, local elections.

[Amo]

There is no immigration crisis - only a perceived problem in the eyes of the uneducated working class and right-wing media.

So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with you is an "uneducated working class"?

Immigration IS a serious issue in this country, ever since Labour decided to open the gates and welcome as many immigrants as possible, which was partly motivated to thumb their noses at the Right. Just ask Andrew Neather. Of course, immigration is probably more of a symptom of a wider problem, namely the welfare state, that was again established by your chosen party.

Carry on with the buck-passing, though. You and the Tories have got it down to an art-form. Heaven forbid the day either party decides to actually take responsibility for their own failings.

[Mike E]

There is no immigration crisis - only a perceived problem in the eyes of the uneducated working class and right-wing media.

Better to be 'uneducated' than a pompous tosspot

[SydneyRover]

So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with you is an "uneducated working class"?

Immigration IS a serious issue in this country, ever since Labour decided to open the gates and welcome as many immigrants as possible, which was partly motivated to thumb their noses at the Right. Just ask Andrew Neather. Of course, immigration is probably more of a symptom of a wider problem, namely the welfare state, that was again established by your chosen party.

Carry on with the buck-passing, though. You and the Tories have got it down to an art-form. Heaven forbid the day either party decides to actually take responsibility for their own failings.

How on earth is Labour's creation of the welfare state something to be looked at with disdain? Every vaguely developed country in the world has a welfare state.

[Amo]

How on earth is Labour's creation of the welfare state something to be looked at with disdain? Every vaguely developed country in the world has a welfare state.

Because it has spiraled out of control and bred a nation of dependency, including natives and immigrants alike.

[Steve Moss]

Because it has spiraled out of control and bred a nation of dependency, including natives and immigrants alike.

Agreed 100%.

[ABBEY]

America is 99% immigrants tho .

[SydneyRover]

Because it has spiraled out of control and bred a nation of dependency, including natives and immigrants alike.

Are you actually going to post anything remotely substantial in this thread or just recycled Daily Mail headlines?

For a start you can be sure if Steve Moss is agreeing with you on something political you've gone way off course.

Let's have a look at welfare spending shall we? This is from 2011-12 but I very much doubt the Tories would have reformed that much by this point.

How much of this pie would you say is breeding a nation of dependency? The state pension? Housing benefit? I would say most people's negative perceptions of welfare is for people who don't work and recieve money not to do so - this is just 3% of the welfare budget.

State pension is the biggest chunk of the welfare pie - I doubt many people mind this being paid out.

So let's look at the second biggest slice - housing benefit.

80% of people applying for housing benefit are WORKING. This article from (ironically) the Daily Mail highlights the problem: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2221111/Working-families-housing-benefit-soar-Number-applications-rising-10-000-month.html

Then there's the disability living allowance and incapacity benefit. But surely that's littered with people claiming disability when they're actually fine to work? The official fraud rate for those two are 0.5% and 0.3% respectively (see this DWP report: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/fem/fem_apr10_mar11.pdf )

So no, the welfare state hasn't produced a nation of dependency. Nor has it spiralled out of control. The majority of money (when you total state pension, pension credits and winter fuel payments) is paid to the elderly. A lot of the rest of it is paid to people who are in work.

One last diagram:

Push up the minimum wage in line with some other countries and you get fewer people requiring benefits from the government.

[broadsword]

People railing against benefit claimants are aiming at the wrong target. Sure, you will always get some people abusing the system, that does not make the system wrong (well, in principle at least, I'm sure the whole thing could be simplified). A true parasite feeds off its host, yes, but does not make its presence known. In this metaphor that makes the true parasites the (idle?) rich.

The UK isn't up the creek because there's a generation of welfare loafers living off of other people's backs. It's because of the greed of bankers and the like (which, let us not forget, happened under Labour's watch).

Remember the maxim "divide and rule", well this is what people at the top do, in order to keep the poor in their place.

It's all a silly game this media hype and the government responding to it, it's there to distract people from the real issues. Look at what's happening now at the sharp end of the benefits system:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dad-two-killed-himself-because-1844633

And while we're at it, isn't it more precise to say that the UK suffers from an overpopulation problem, rather than an immigration problem. Would anyone really claim that population density isn't a problem? But where is that coming from, immigration or are people having more kids or are we just living longer?

[jim mk2]

So, in other words, anyone who disagrees with you is an "uneducated working class"?

Immigration IS a serious issue in this country, ever since Labour decided to open the gates and welcome as many immigrants as possible, which was partly motivated to thumb their noses at the Right. Just ask Andrew Neather. Of course, immigration is probably more of a symptom of a wider problem, namely the welfare state, that was again established by your chosen party.

Carry on with the buck-passing, though. You and the Tories have got it down to an art-form. Heaven forbid the day either party decides to actually take responsibility for their own failings.

Just the usual recycled rubbish to be found every day in the right-wing press. Tony's brilliant post explains it in A-B-C form for you far better than I could.

[jim mk2]

Peop

The UK isn't up the creek because there's a generation of welfare loafers living off of other people's backs. It's because of the greed of bankers and the like (which, let us not forget, happened under Labour's watch).

Greed of the bankers and unfettered capitalism in the City certainly but let's not forget that the Tories in opposition from 1997 onwards were constantly calling for the City to be less regulated. It's ironic now that they are having to clamp down on the excesses of their natural supporters.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Still very bitter I see despite the fact that the seeds were sown during the dark days of the 70's when the communist led unions held sway over successive British Governments and it now being a full 22 years since she left No10 and despite 13 years in office recently for Labour to reverse any of her legacies which they did not even attempt to do.

Tell me Tyrone what would be your preferred politics? Socialist? Communist? Marxist? You can be honest cos we don't know who you are.

When you have done that then could you and Jim explain to me how it is healthy to have a population that we cannot possibly feed and by an absolute country mile should any sort of unforseen disaster strike.

Since you ask I'm a free lance Socialist. I would have thought that was pretty obvious from my previous comments.

[broadsword]

Greed of the bankers and unfettered capitalism in the City certainly but let's not forget that the Tories in opposition from 1997 onwards were constantly calling for the City to be less regulated. It's ironic now that they are having to clamp down on the excesses of their natural supporters.

Absolutely, and it was Maggie who kicked it all off.

[Steve Moss]

Here's the numbers on the federal government's spending on welfare programs:

http://dailycaller.com/2012/10/18/report-welfare-governments-single-largest-budget-item-in-fy-2011-at-approx-1-03-trillion/

Steve Moss

America is 99% immigrants tho .

The statement lumped natural born Americans with immigrants. It included both.

For a start you can be sure if Steve Moss is agreeing with you on something political you've gone way off course.

Thanks SydneyRover. I'm glad someone appreciates my constancy.

[SydneyRover]

Without wanting to digress to much from a thread on the UK, that link you posted means absolutely nothing though Steve without a breakdown of how the welfare budget is spent. You say welfare to your average man on the street in the UK and many would say its something that gets paid to people who can't be bothered working, not aware that the job seekers allowance (not that I'd label all recipients that way) is just a fraction of the welfare budget. Welfare encompasses a huge amount of things, most of which your average voter would likely agree with.

Additionally, if welfare doesn't form the biggest chunk of US government spending then what should? You have the worst public healthcare system in the Western world and your public schools are woefully underfunded.

[Steve Moss]

I believe there is a link within the article which provides the specific breakdown,

Whether its the UK or the USA the first order of business should be to pay down the debt.

With that goal in mind, I would eliminate all "welfare", and cut everyhting else, including defense, 10%.

Once the debt is paid we can discuss transferring those prior debt payments into the welfare system.

[SydneyRover]

So you'd let people starve to death, make tens of thousands (at least) homeless just so you can pay down the debt?

[DE.]

I believe there is a link within the article which provides the specific breakdown,

Whether its the UK or the USA the first order of business should be to pay down the debt.

With that goal in mind, I would eliminate all "welfare", and cut everyhting else, including defense, 10%.

Once the debt is paid we can discuss transferring those prior debt payments into the welfare system.

Do that and you would have a total revolt on your hands.

[jim mk2]

I believe there is a link within the article which provides the specific breakdown,

Whether its the UK or the USA the first order of business should be to pay down the debt.

With that goal in mind, I would eliminate all "welfare", and cut everyhting else, including defense, 10%.

Once the debt is paid we can discuss transferring those prior debt payments into the welfare system.

And here we have the wonderful Tea party in all its glory. Nasty is too kind an adjective for these people.

[thenodrog]

Since you ask I'm a free lance Socialist. I would have thought that was pretty obvious from my previous comments.

Why?

btw ... I'm not actually certain what one of those is. They weren't on my options.

[Steve Moss]

And here we have the wonderful Tea party in all its glory. Nasty is too kind an adjective for these people.

Jim it may be "nasty" or it may be common sense.

Interest payments alone are $220 billion last year. By 2020 they'll be a $1 trillion per year. In interest, which does not include the principal. http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/11/19/how-the-nations-interest-spending-stacks-up

This is money which is NOT going to education, etc. It's money which is only going to service debt. There will come a point where interest payments swallow the budget, unless we can get it paid off.

So yes, it may be heartless and cruel, though rational, in the near term. Long term it could be the best thing to happen to the nation in a very long time.

The best analogy I can think of is disciplining a small child. It may break your heart to do it (images of my then 2 two year old blubbering on time-out in a corner comes to mind) but long term its necessary for their prosperity, health and happiness.