[Archived] England Squad for the Euros

[K-Hod]

Only decisions I have a quibble with-

no Carrick (though he did explain he didn't want to be a bit part player),

No Richards or A. Johnson- and Downing in, after his stellar season of nothingness.

[RoyRover]

From an outside perspective there is not always the standard well like u say, "ridiculous predictions, hype and expectations" at this stage as the memory of last tournament's failure is still fresh in the mind.

Sometimes once the season is over and all attention is on the tournament, the expectation starts to creep in eg "We're gonna win this one cos this time we have Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, A Cole etc"

The press HAVE gone over the top at the last number of tournaments that England have qualified for and then bombed at. It's only now, since they were so bad at the World Cup, have expectations dampened a bit, although there is still more than enough time for a few delusional people to drum up some hysteria.

I also don't understand why people build up so many of the players. Rooney has never performed well at a major tournament and has yet to score at one. Gerrard looks like a world class player when playing for Liverpool, but he's another one that never really performs at international level. Lampard is very good player, but not at the level of others. Terry is a liability, with the heroic, last ditch tackles he makes usually coming about because of mistakes he's made. Ashley Cole is arguably the best left back in the world and is quality.

[roverandout]

thats not true, didnt he score some goals at euro 2004?

[RoyRover]

thats not true, didnt he score some goals at euro 2004?

I thought he hadn't and it was on of the big things people always talked about with Rooney. I happily stand to be corrected.

[roverandout]

no worries, apology accepted

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Rooney just scored a few in the group stages against I think Switzerland and Croatia. He has scored a few goals for England (20 plus) but the only good teams he has scored against are Russia, Croatia and in friendlies against Holland and I think Argentina. He is the most over-rated player I have ever come across.

He is just an English Edin Dzeko - quality some times, scores some really nice goals, average quite a bit, terrible quite a bit, goes for months without scoring or without scoring from open play.....he's Man Utd's penalty taker so scores quite a lot of them......has had 2 prolific goal scoring seasons playing for the best or sometimes 2nd best team in England.....since the group stages of 2004 he has been in my mind one of England worst perfroming players in international tournaments.

But he is England's golden boy so the commentators/pundits don't slag him off.......not even when he stamps on carvalho and gets sent off......no that was Cristiano Ronaldo's fault.......Gerrard/Lampard also don't perform in major tournaments but they should never play together.

Ashley Cole is the best full back in the world and does play well.....sometimes excellent........Hargreaves was the same.

I think Lampard is better than Gerrard (but not Scholes) and is undoubtedly a world class player. Rooney is not world-class as he is nowhere near as highly rated outside of England.....the definition of world class is everyone in the world thinks you are class and that is not the case with Rooney.

[vyeo]

Not English, but still follow the national team for sentimental reasons. Thought that Hodgson was a good appointment, but the squad selection raises questions. Would have taken Micah Richards, Adam Johnson and Daniel Sturridge over Glen Johnson, Oxlade and Downing. Grant Holt might have been my surprise choice as the big lump over Andy Carroll, though if it was me would probably have stuck to Crouch.

Good luck!

[thenodrog]

b]the definition of world class is everyone in the world thinks you are class [/b]

[Rovermatt]

Rooney just scored a few in the group stages against I think Switzerland and Croatia. He has scored a few goals for England (20 plus) but the only good teams he has scored against are Russia, Croatia and in friendlies against Holland and I think Argentina. He is the most over-rated player I have ever come across.

He is just an English Edin Dzeko - quality some times, scores some really nice goals, average quite a bit, terrible quite a bit, goes for months without scoring or without scoring from open play.....he's Man Utd's penalty taker so scores quite a lot of them......has had 2 prolific goal scoring seasons playing for the best or sometimes 2nd best team in England.....since the group stages of 2004 he has been in my mind one of England worst perfroming players in international tournaments.

But he is England's golden boy so the commentators/pundits don't slag him off.......not even when he stamps on carvalho and gets sent off......no that was Cristiano Ronaldo's fault.......Gerrard/Lampard also don't perform in major tournaments but they should never play together.

Ashley Cole is the best full back in the world and does play well.....sometimes excellent........Hargreaves was the same.

I think Lampard is better than Gerrard (but not Scholes) and is undoubtedly a world class player. Rooney is not world-class as he is nowhere near as highly rated outside of England.....the definition of world class is everyone in the world thinks you are class and that is not the case with Rooney.

I couldn't disagree more. He's fast, he's powerful, he's a goal threat. He's good in the air, technically brilliant, an excellent footballer.

As far as I'm concerned Rooney's the best English player of the past couple of generations by a mile and would easily start in any other top club or international side.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

Lampard better than Gerrard?? Behave.

Rooney has scored against top teams domestically and he is one of the best strikers in Europe. I dont rate him higher than Van Persie, but bar him, I can't think of any other striker in Europe who you'd replace Rooney with.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Rooney isn't as good as you all make out.......Van Persie, Drogba, Aguero, David Villa, Old Torres, Tevez, Benzema, maybe Higuain are better as well as obvo Messi and Ronaldo if u class them as strikers.

And that is what world class means - I worded it like that to make the obvious point - go to any continent and talk about the likes of Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Sneijder etc and they will all agree that they are among the best players in the world.

From reading foreign journalists as well as after going travelling in South America and Asia he isn't rated as much as England would like to think. He is undoubtedly a really good footballer and has games where he is world class......but based on consistency.....on a game to game basis as well as each season he isn't.......he has so many poor games in a season......altho this is never mentioned.......he will consistently lose the ball in a game and all that will be mentioned is the amazing way he runs back and tries to win the ball back.....important yes but whole teams do that all the time.

"and would easily start in any other top club or international side".....he wouldn't start for Man City over Tevez/Aguero, Chelsea over Drogba or if Old Torres is back, Arsenal over Van Persie, Barca over Messi/David Villa, Real Madrid over Ronaldo/Benzema, maybe Higuain......Spain over David Villa/Torres, France over Benzema, don't know about with Germany and Gomez (Podolski and Klose's international record are unreal but he is better than both), don't know about Brazil maybe/maybe not...Neymar looks some player after seeing him live and a couple times but he needs to do it consistently and for a club in Europe, Portugal over Ronaldo, Argentina over Messi/Aguero/Tevez maybe Higuain, Holland over Van Persie.

Alrite some of these teams might accommodate him and play with 2 up front but that is defo not guaranteed and also 4-2-3-1 seems to be the fashion these days.

I am not doubting his ability I am just arguing he does not consistently play like a world-class player.....he has looked better over the past 2/3 seasons and is still relatively young and probably will become world class but he isn't quite as of this moment.

"Rooney has scored against top teams domestically" agreed but he has been playing in the premier league for about 8 seasons......in the champions league as well he has scored against good teams but he doesn't near enough produce quality performances in big matches......with England especially and the first Man Utd-Barca final......hard I know still but him and Carrick were the worst players on the pitch.

And I will argue all day long that Lampard is better than Gerrard.....once again in relation to consistency Lampard is better......b4 this one Lampard scored 20 plus goals in a season 5 years in a row, wasn't really getting a game under AVB and is still their top goalscorer this season.....not that goals are the only thing of importance but it highlights his consistency whereas Gerrard has bad seasons once in a while.

Gerrard is an unbelievable player but just rescues Liverpool when they overly rely on him and overemphasises his ability if you get me.......when he is needed for them he normally rises to the occasion but that doesn't make him better than Lampard who normally plays that way anyway.

[Rovermatt]

"and would easily start in any other top club or international side".....he wouldn't start for Man City over Tevez/Aguero, Chelsea over Drogba or if Old Torres is back, Arsenal over Van Persie, Barca over Messi/David Villa, Real Madrid over Ronaldo/Benzema, maybe Higuain......Spain over David Villa/Torres, France over Benzema, don't know about with Germany and Gomez (Podolski and Klose's international record are unreal but he is better than both), don't know about Brazil maybe/maybe not...Neymar looks some player after seeing him live and a couple times but he needs to do it consistently and for a club in Europe, Portugal over Ronaldo, Argentina over Messi/Aguero/Tevez maybe Higuain, Holland over Van Persie.

There are so many variables in what you've just written that I'm not sure where to begin.

I'm no England or United fan and I have no vested interest in talking up either one but Rooney would get in every single one of the sides you mention there. Obviously he wouldn't displace the likes of Aguero (though he is certainly a better player than Tevez), Messi, Ronaldo or Van Persie but that does not mean that he would be incapable of playing in one their teams due to a lack of ability or class.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

My point was that he isn't better than those strikers and therefore wouldn't "easily start" for those teams. I wouldn't and didn't argue that he is "incapable of playing in one their teams due to a lack of ability or class" but I didn't agree at all that he would just walk straight into those teams which was your point.

Similar to you not being an England or United fan, I don't rate him as highly for being any one of them, it's just based on my perception as him as a footballer. I don't think he is better than Tevez who carried City last year and proved his ability again at the end of this season. With Tevez and Higuain, the levels of all three are pretty similar and could definitely see how ppl could rate Rooney higher than those 2 but not the likes of Drogba, Aguero etc. I argued that it wouldn't surprise me if he did play in other top teams, club or international, but found the point of him being able to walk into those teams pretty ridiculous.

I certainly don't agree that Rooney is "the best English player of the past couple of generations by a mile".....not domestically and certainly not on the international stage except maybe against the likes of Austria, Andorra and Belarus in the qualifiers.

[Stuart]

I certainly don't agree that Rooney is "the best English player of the past couple of generations by a mile".....not domestically and certainly not on the international stage except maybe against the likes of Austria, Andorra and Belarus in the qualifiers.

Who would you say is better under that criteria, let's say since 1990? Talking about all round what they bring to a team. I can only think of Gascoigne off the top of my head.

[Amo]

For me, 'world class' is exactly that: someone who has excelled on the world stage, as Maradona did with Argentina in the 80s. Rooney has yet to do the business on the world stage, and that goes for Messi as well before anyone asks.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

My point was that he isn't better than those strikers and therefore wouldn't "easily start" for those teams. I wouldn't and didn't argue that he is "incapable of playing in one their teams due to a lack of ability or class" but I didn't agree at all that he would just walk straight into those teams which was your point.

Similar to you not being an England or United fan, I don't rate him as highly for being any one of them, it's just based on my perception as him as a footballer. I don't think he is better than Tevez who carried City last year and proved his ability again at the end of this season. With Tevez and Higuain, the levels of all three are pretty similar and could definitely see how ppl could rate Rooney higher than those 2 but not the likes of Drogba, Aguero etc. I argued that it wouldn't surprise me if he did play in other top teams, club or international, but found the point of him being able to walk into those teams pretty ridiculous.

I certainly don't agree that Rooney is "the best English player of the past couple of generations by a mile".....not domestically and certainly not on the international stage except maybe against the likes of Austria, Andorra and Belarus in the qualifiers.

Which other European strikers would you rate above Rooney? I'll give you RVP, any more?? We only play the likes of 'Austria, Andorra and Belarus' in between tournaments so most English players only score against those nations. I'm not a Rooney fan, but I can see what he brings to the team and he is clearly one of the best strikers in Europe. He's arguably carried United in much the same way as Tevez did last season, if not more so.

I also dont quite understand the point you're trying to make by accepting that Rooney could play for other top international or club teams but denied that he could 'walk' into their teams.. If you accept that he's good enough, debating whether he would 'walk' into the team is irrelevant surely??

[JAL]

Arent we the silly ones for having to pay to watch your Modeste's, Formica's, Rochina's and Petrovic's of this world whilst our national team suffers from a chronic lack of talent.

Not only that we have an migrant being paid millions of pounds to tell us how wonderful they all are as we glance over our shoulders at League 1 now.

[hesfromburn]

Rooney is definatly over-rated the standard of talent we have produced recently is poor, Owen at his best, Shearer, Gascoine, even Matt Le Tissier (who amazingly didnt get a chance on the international stage) were better quality IMO than what we have now.

[Rovermatt]

My point was that he isn't better than those strikers and therefore wouldn't "easily start" for those teams. I wouldn't and didn't argue that he is "incapable of playing in one their teams due to a lack of ability or class" but I didn't agree at all that he would just walk straight into those teams which was your point.

Similar to you not being an England or United fan, I don't rate him as highly for being any one of them, it's just based on my perception as him as a footballer. I don't think he is better than Tevez who carried City last year and proved his ability again at the end of this season. With Tevez and Higuain, the levels of all three are pretty similar and could definitely see how ppl could rate Rooney higher than those 2 but not the likes of Drogba, Aguero etc. I argued that it wouldn't surprise me if he did play in other top teams, club or international, but found the point of him being able to walk into those teams pretty ridiculous.

I certainly don't agree that Rooney is "the best English player of the past couple of generations by a mile".....not domestically and certainly not on the international stage except maybe against the likes of Austria, Andorra and Belarus in the qualifiers.

I know perfectly well what my point was. It works both ways; none of those players would displace him in the United or England team. We're clearly talking in the abstract (or at least we should be) when discussing whether a certain player is capable of playing at a leading club. Any number of 'world class' footballers would be unable to get into other teams because another 'world class' player already plays there in his position.

Did Rooney not carry United to the title last season? Did he not carry them this season when they lost the title by six goals? If you can name me an Englishman who is currently anywhere near Rooney in terms of influence, goal scoring and sheer talent - indeed considering those things since Alan Shearer retired - then I'll be impressed.

Getting bogged down in the merits of every good striker competing in the Champions League is utterly pointless. There is no limit on the 'world class' label.

[McClarky]

He's got a tough job on has Roy the boy. With this squad he'll do well to reach the quarters but I doubt that will be the attitude of the media where he will no doubt be savaged for not winning the tournament. Might have been better to use this as a chance to give younger players some experience for the next WC as the older playyers, who have tried and failed repeatedly over the last decade or so, won't be around. As I see it most of these players have been found badly wanting at the top level in the past and don't deserve another chance.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

In terms of the best English player, I wasn't considering what they brought to the team just the best overall player in terms of ability......so better players imo than Rooney since 1990 are Gascoigne, Shearer, Scholes, Adams, Rio, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, umm yea Le Tissier was some player, Ian Wright maybe.

Which other European strikers would I rate above Rooney? Van Persie, Aguero, Drogba, Old Torres (has been looking sharper recently tho), David Villa, Benzema and pretty similar to Tevez and Higuain.

I mentioned "Austria, Andorra and Belarus" as he only seems to play well in qualifying but not in international tournaments, barring the group stage of Euro 2004 against Croatia and I think Switzerland. I only really consider the "international stage" to be the Euro's and World Cup.

I agree he brings a lot to Man United and would also consider him among the best strikers in Europe but not in the elite 5/6. In terms of being good enough to play for top teams and being able to walk into those teams I do see a difference. Walking into those teams would make him a guaranteed starter but I believe there are clubs and countries in which that would not be the case.

Messi plays centrally for Barca and couldn't see them changing their system like what happened with Zlatan (very good player, a bit behind Rooney) and they have David Villa. Real Madrid have Benzema, Ronaldo with Higuain normally on the bench and can't see him being a guaranteed starter their either. With Arsenal if they went 2 up top if not Van Persie would start over him (obviously there are variables with this and maybe Rooney would go out wide left playing 3 up top etc), Man City I dunno with Aguero who is better, then Tevez is there so not sure what would happen. I mean Argentina have Messi, Aguero, Tevez and Higuain as well as players like Lavezzi so I am only arguing that I don't think anyone can suggest he is a guaranteed starter for any team.

And also agree that Owen at his peak was better as well.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

"If you can name me an Englishman who is currently anywhere near Rooney in terms of influence, goal scoring and sheer talent" - that is not related to anything I was saying tho as it is pretty obvious England are currently short on top strikers. Hence why Andy Carroll is in the squad.

I'll try and answer tho, can't name any with all 3 if that's what you mean, if not.....influence - Terry..... goal scoring - no1 atm, would like Sturridge to play more centrally tho, Darren Bent is a proven premier league goalscorer..not sure wat his England record is like, same applies with Defoe.....sheer talent - Rio but he isn't in the squad, Gerrard, Lampard and Ashley Cole.

[Rovermatt]

In terms of the best English player, I wasn't considering what they brought to the team just the best overall player in terms of ability......so better players imo than Rooney since 1990 are Gascoigne, Shearer, Scholes, Adams, Rio, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, umm yea Le Tissier was some player, Ian Wright maybe.

Which other European strikers would I rate above Rooney? Van Persie, Aguero, Drogba, Old Torres (has been looking sharper recently tho), David Villa, Benzema and pretty similar to Tevez and Higuain.

I'm unsure what you mean here? Are you saying these players were more talented footballers than Rooney or that they were more influential in the national team?

Either way I think you're wide of the mark. Only Gascoigne, Le Tissier and Scholes possessed Rooney's technical abilities. Even Scholes harnessed his fantastic technique to become a disciplined (though attacking) midfielder and the ultimate team player. Shearer, Adams, Ferdinand, Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, Owen and Wright are/were all excellent players but none possess Rooney's talent.

If you are bringing their influence into it, then the likes of Wright and Le Tissier must surely be ruled out given that they share 41 caps and nine goals.

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

In terms of the best English player, I wasn't considering what they brought to the team just the best overall player in terms of ability......so better players imo than Rooney since 1990 are Gascoigne, Shearer, Scholes, Adams, Rio, Ashley Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, umm yea Le Tissier was some player, Ian Wright maybe.

Which other European strikers would I rate above Rooney? Van Persie, Aguero, Drogba, Old Torres (has been looking sharper recently tho), David Villa, Benzema and pretty similar to Tevez and Higuain.

I mentioned "Austria, Andorra and Belarus" as he only seems to play well in qualifying but not in international tournaments, barring the group stage of Euro 2004 against Croatia and I think Switzerland. I only really consider the "international stage" to be the Euro's and World Cup.

I agree he brings a lot to Man United and would also consider him among the best strikers in Europe but not in the elite 5/6. In terms of being good enough to play for top teams and being able to walk into those teams I do see a difference. Walking into those teams would make him a guaranteed starter but I believe there are clubs and countries in which that would not be the case.

Messi plays centrally for Barca and couldn't see them changing their system like what happened with Zlatan (very good player, a bit behind Rooney) and they have David Villa. Real Madrid have Benzema, Ronaldo with Higuain normally on the bench and can't see him being a guaranteed starter their either. With Arsenal if they went 2 up top if not Van Persie would start over him (obviously there are variables with this and maybe Rooney would go out wide left playing 3 up top etc), Man City I dunno with Aguero who is better, then Tevez is there so not sure what would happen. I mean Argentina have Messi, Aguero, Tevez and Higuain as well as players like Lavezzi so I am only arguing that I don't think anyone can suggest he is a guaranteed starter for any team.

And also agree that Owen at his peak was better as well.

European strikers. Thats minus Drogba, Aguero, Higuain, Messi and Tevez. And lets face it, if those are the only strikers in world football ahead of Rooney then I would still argue that equates to being world class.

How many strikers playing in Euro 2012 are ahead of Rooney bar RVP? Not many. Benzema and Gomez are handy but their overall game isn't as strong, Villa is possibly the only other contender and I dont think we can only focus on Torres pre chelsea as that is now 18 months ago. I reckon Rooney would get into every other Euro 2012 nation's starting XI.

Also, considering we've played in only two tournaments since 2004 and in one he wasn't fit, I dont think its fair to criticise him for not scoring against top teams considering he does it regularly for Utd and has scored in a champions league final.

Im hardly his biggest fan but its very hard to deny that he is one of the very few world class players we have alongside Ashley Cole and Joe Hart.

I'm still staggered that you can rate Lampard over Gerrard.

[JAL]

When we have agents in this country making millions of pounds from bringing in average foreign footballers into this country and these agents having a huge influence on the media and whats it puts out, what chance do we really stand.