[Archived] I'm a Dad, don't get it

[adopted scouser]

Well done Alesha Ahmed for giving evidence. Her sister a beautiful young woman suffocated by her own family, yup her own Mum and Dad. Honour ?More like the middle ages

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Will no doubt have to have police protection and change of identity to avoid similar fate at hands of relatives

[adopted scouser]

Her own Dad ? Kill your own daughter ?

[Paul]

I didn't realise this had gone to trial? Or is this the story you're referring to. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1306397/Sister-suspected-honour-killing-victim-arrested-armed-robbery-home.html

Confused

[adopted scouser]

It was all over the news yesterday, forcing a carrier bag into her mouth to suffocate her. Her own parents ?

[Paul]

I didn't see or hear any news yesterday which is why I asked.

[thenodrog]

Don't think the case is concluded yet. But...

The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (2:178).

No worries in this case then... "Listen woman.... Allah says if I forgive you, then you must forgive me and here's that fiver I owe you. Make sure you give it me back tomorrow innit."

Good job the poor girl hadn't committed adultery or wasn't a lesbian or else hudud would dictate that a nice public stoning or beheading followed by dismembering and torching in a number of random country lay-by's would no doubt have been the recommended punishment.

btw shouldn't this be here......

http://www.brfcs.co.uk/mb/index.php/topic/18397-hang-em-high/

[adopted scouser]

Maybe it should have been in the other thread, I just can't square how parents can murder their own child (hence the thread title).

How could anyone kill their own child ?

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Don't think the case is concluded yet. But...

The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (2:178).

Lots of countries adhering to varying systems have the death penalty for murder. The fact that a family can pardon the murderer is actually quite a liberal idea when the offender is not a member of the family.

Good job the poor girl hadn't committed adultery or wasn't a lesbian or else hudud would dictate that a nice public stoning or beheading followed by dismembering and torching in a number of random country lay-by's would no doubt have been the recommended punishment.

Only if you could produce 4 witnesses who had actually seen her committing adultery or having sex with another woman. So she'd have to be an exhibitionist as well as an adulteress.

[Mattyblue]

Do you think 'honour' crime is defensible Jeru?

[Jeru tha Damaja]

No.

I'm also yet to see the verse in the Qur'an or the hadith that suggests that it is, but since theno decided that Shari'ah needed to be a part of the discussion I just thought it would be helpful to give more details of the laws he referred to rather than the version you might see splashed across the front page of a tabloid. I can see why people would still have a problem with it, but it isn't the blood-lusting witch hunt that is conjured up in the imaginations of some people.

My personal view is the same as most, that these sort of killings are absolutely sickening and that the murderers should be brought to justice. I just felt it was necessary to distinguish between the actions of some Muslims and the laws of Islam.

[colin]

How could anyone kill their own child ?

Well she did put her red jeans in the washing machine, so I've now got a pink & blue duvet cover.....

But more seriously I'm with you on this one AS, I've no idea why anyone would want to kill their own children.

And, as usual there usual suspects have diverted the discussion round to the fact that the family are Muslim. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The following may shed some light:

here

There is of course the recent case of "Baby P"

And over the years there have been awful stories of parents killing their children. The parents' religion or ethnic background is really irrelevant and only someone with an axe to grind would use this to further their own personal agenda or bee in their bonnet.

BTW At the time of writing Shafilea Ahmed's parents' have not been found guilty, so tread carefully fellow posters

[thenodrog]

And, as usual there usual suspects have diverted the discussion round to the fact that the family are Muslim. This is totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Usual suspects?

Why so dismissive Colin? The following may be peripheral to this actual case and try to deflect blame all you want but some odd and cruel things occur in the name of Islam to children and in particular females. As usual there is always something happening regularly which will serve to highlight your misplaced sensitivities. Here is todays timely 'prove Colin wrong again' item. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/23/taliban-targets-schoolgirl-afghanistan-_n_1539364.html

Mercifully none have died yet but just where would you apportion blame here? Christians? Hindu's? Buddhists? nah that won't work. Could it be the nasty anti Islamic western press perhaps for openly reporting something which wasn't intended for public consumption. How about me for quoting it? Where Colin? More to the point why do you condone such blatant sexual discrimination and barbarism when it is carried out in the name of a religion?

[Mattyblue]

'Honour' killings are an issue for a particular community, the Baby P case could have happenned in any community.

The problem is, liberals find it difficult to square being 'inclusive' and 'tolerant' with the acts carried out by minority groups that are anything but.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Usual suspects?

Why so dismissive Colin? The following may be peripheral to this actual case and try to deflect blame all you want but some odd and cruel things occur in the name of Islam to children and in particular females. As usual there is always something happening regularly which will serve to highlight your misplaced sensitivities. Here is todays timely 'prove Colin wrong again' item. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/05/23/taliban-targets-schoolgirl-afghanistan-_n_1539364.html

Mercifully none have died yet but just where would you apportion blame here? Christians? Hindu's? Buddhists? nah that won't work. Could it be the nasty anti Islamic western press perhaps for openly reporting something which wasn't intended for public consumption. How about me for quoting it? Where Colin? More to the point why do you condone such blatant sexual discrimination and barbarism when it is carried out in the name of a religion?

Again, in the name of the religion, not actually because the teachings of that faith demand it. I won't say that Islam makes men and women equal, but then neither does nature. What I will say is there is no way you can logically apply an Islamic concept and come up with the idea that it is right to harm girls simply because they are seeking an education. In fact, acquiring knowledge is encouraged for all people.

Israeli Jews and Christian Americans have pretty poor records for blowing up schools and hospitals. How often do we attribute that to the violence of their religions?

In fact, I believe there were race riots in Israel yesterday prompted by speeches from Israeli politicians that stopped just short of "rivers of blood". They said that the African immigrants (who statistically are less likely to commit a crime than Israeli nationals) were behind a surge in crime and that they threatened the Jewish identity of the nation. Days later 'dozens' of African migrants in Tel Aviv are reported injured after demonstrations by anti-immigration groups turn violent. No reports of Israeli casualties.

The only Jewish state on the planet refused to sign a nuclear non-proliferation treaty, developed nuclear weapons despite the (public) disapproval of the international community and have hinted that they would be willing to use them against Iran. Meanwhile, Iran may or may not be doing the same thing and the Israelis are once again stamping their feet saying they won't settle for Tehran backing down over weapons-grade uranium, and that they must cease all enrichment programmes. Hypocritical, unstable and potentially violent.

Is Judaism a violent and intolerant faith?

And the problem is always the same. If you call out Muslims for their behaviour then you're Islamophobic, if you call out the Jews then you're an anti-Semite and if you criticise a Christian then...well no, nobody really remembers what Christianity actually is anymore.

[Paul]

I won't say that Islam makes men and women equal, but then neither does nature. .

Hold on a minute. I don't usually have too much of a problem with some of your views in relation to explaining religion etc. BUT you may just have exposed your true views rather than those you post.

ALL of my female friends would frankly have your balls for that statement. Say it to anyone of them and they would tear your view apart and place it somewhere. Two or three ladies I know from this MB would have the same view.

Men and women are entirely equal and to suggest anything else exposes all of an individual's views on the subject to doubt.

My wife is always horrified by young ethnic women who chose clothing as a statement or badge when their liberty is so important. Of topic sorry.

[ABBEY]

Jeru , any man that lets his wife walk around in for all intents and purposes in a black face mask is a disgrace to men. If anyone does what has happened to there child in this thread then they should be tortured themselves and hung.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Paul, men and women are not physically equal, that was the point. If we were then why would women have a separate organisation for football, rugby and just about every other sport? Very few women find their way into physically demanding jobs, in my opinion that is related to the difference in physical strength between men and women, maybe you want to argue that it's because it's hard for women to work in a male-dominated environment (but that just poses another question about the depth of equality). Men are not physically capable of caring for young children in the same way as women.

It's not that I wouldn't support people who want to cross these traditional boundaries, it's just that scientifically speaking it is the exception for them to do so rather than the rule.

Jeru , any man that lets his wife walk around in for all intents and purposes in a black face mask is a disgrace to men. If anyone does what has happened to there child in this thread then they should be tortured themselves and hung.

There's the issue. A man who 'lets' his wife walk around in...whatever. If she makes a choice to wear something then why is it your duty to tell her she shouldn't? If she wants to wear a bikini then that's her choice. If she wants to wear a niqab then that's her choice. If she wants to wear denim and work boots then that's her choice too.

I might express a preference about what my wife wears, but I would never presume to tell her what to wear. If she comes home tonight and tells me she wants to wear a niqab thenI wouldn't say no. I'd be confused, but I don't think it is my place to stop her.

[ABBEY]

There's the issue. A man who 'lets' his wife walk around in...whatever. If she makes a choice to wear something then why is it your duty to tell her she shouldn't? If she wants to wear a bikini then that's her choice. If she wants to wear a niqab then that's her choice. If she wants to wear denim and work boots then that's her choice too.

I might express a preference about what my wife wears, but I would never presume to tell her what to wear. If she comes home tonight and tells me she wants to wear a niqab thenI wouldn't say no. I'd be confused, but I don't think it is my place to stop her.

So every woman chooses to wear the veil? cmoooooooooooon

[DE.]

Interestingly, most of the 'harsher' rules followed by Muslims are actually ripped right out of the Old Testament. A great number of them do not exist in the Qur'an, but were added later by "scholars" as Hadiths etc. Ironically Muslims probably follow the Old Testament to a greater extent than Christians.

There's no way the parents could justify killing their daughter based solely on the Qur'an (which states it is the ONLY source a Muslim needs to live a good life) therefore I imagine if their God does exist and they did do what is alleged they'll be more than a little surprised with the judgement passed upon them.

[Paul]

Paul, men and women are not physically equal, that was the point. If we were then why would women have a separate organisation for football, rugby and just about every other sport? Very few women find their way into physically demanding jobs, in my opinion that is related to the difference in physical strength between men and women, maybe you want to argue that it's because it's hard for women to work in a male-dominated environment (but that just poses another question about the depth of equality). Men are not physically capable of caring for young children in the same way as women.

OK I will accept it is clear men and women have different physical strenghts and there areas where women cannot "compete" physically, however these are relatively few and not especially important - football, rugby etc. are not an important issue in the scheme of things.

Other than the ONE obvious area of breast-feeding any man with a forward thinking and modern approach is equally capable of every other aspect of childcare and any other domestic areas. Our house has enjoyed sharing every aspect of domestic and married life without exception for 30+ years as do millions of others. Your suggestions reveal an opinon which you don't express and I would suggest it as unfair to a man as it is to a woman.

It's not that I wouldn't support people who want to cross these traditional boundaries, it's just that scientifically speaking it is the exception for them to do so rather than the rule.

It's not about crossing boundaries it's about supporting one and other in a relationship. Science has nothing to do with it.

[adopted scouser]

Now an irresponsible breeder and his sperm bank have been arrested in connection with the death of their six children.

What goes through minds of these people ?

[BPF]

It's hilarious when Christians talk about the violence in other 'holy' texts.

Have you read the bible?

[adopted scouser]

It's hilarious when Christians talk about the violence in other 'holy' texts.

Have you read the bible?

Religion isn't even a talking point for me, it's parents killing their own flesh and blood.

Hard to believe.

[Steve Moss]

Paul, men and women are not physically equal, that was the point.

Not physically equal? Yes, you are correct. In many ways men are physically inferior to women.

Then again, you are not physically equal to any number of criminal types. Perhaps you should put on a veil and follow them around at a respectful distance?

Sarcasm aside, equality under the law is entirely different issue than equal as a matter of physical characteristics. A woman should have every civic right that a man should have and vice-versa. Any system that says otherwise is corrupt, evil and should be cast down.

Religion isn't even a talking point for me, it's parents killing their own flesh and blood.

It's a sickness. Not one that can be treated. The only cure is to see to it that these monsters are removed from the breeding pool (and streets) as soon as practicable.