[Archived] Rovers Supporters Groups and Communities (was Blackburn United)

[PAFELL]

Yes. Nobody is saying you're not doing more and achieving more than BRST (which is what I assume you're alluding to). I like you waited such a long time for it to get going, despite so badly wanting it to work too. It's no secret that I got so frustrated I tried to help by trying to get people involved that had set up BRISA (in the hope it would kickstart things) but the new personnel is a fairly recent move. Will it get off the ground, I have no idea. Will it lessen what the Action Group does? Of course not, I think they are likely to be targeting a very different type of fan to the Action Group (I don't know, other than pushing a few people to get involved, I'm not really involved myself).

Ultimately, whilst I know the Action Group genuinely represents a LOT of fans, there are a lot of fans who genuinely think SOME of the actions of the Action Group means they could never get behind them. I know it probably isn't truly representative, but I spend a lot more "face to face" time with Rovers fans who fall into that category, than those who don't (and we're talking around serious home & away fans here, not guys who may buy walk-ons 3 or 4 times a year). Don't they deserve a voice too? What if a serial Rovers Fan wanted you to represent his views, would you?

You guys are doing some great work now, but I don't think people should be limited to your way or no way.

I am aware of your desire to have rovers supporters clubs up and down the country or even in the local area. Like there used to be years ago. There are many ways of approaching a subject / task. all legal ways should be listened too.

[glen9mullan]

C'mon guys, I'm trying to throw you a bone here and not rake up old coals. By your own admittion you made some terrible PR gaffs in those early days that upset a lot of people. People you'll struggle to ever win over. I genuinely want what you're doing to work, so there is no sense going into specifics.

You've moved on, you've learnt from your mistakes, the Action Group is growing and doing great things, lets leave it at that.

As I said earlier we listed what we are doing, as this was the discussion at the Blackburn United meeting, was hoping the other groups would do the same, as I dont want to post on their behalf, but its important that any news is shared. Getting off on the right foot has to be the way forward.

I really do hope some of the people who have not previously been involved with the Action Group put their name forward for the 3 new committee members we are gonna be looking to elect.

I have made contact with one or two who I think would be great editions, and hope they would stand. I also think you should stand too Glenn, as a difference of opinion is important for the dynamics of any group. Not all our committee agree on everything, things go to vote always

[St_Jimmy_77]

Just reading through the pages on this thread. I have been quite critical in the past of the Action Group and various methods used in conveying the situation Rovers are facing. I too didn't know about "BRAG" and often referred to the Action Group as this. Now I know this, I hold my hand up and admit it was wrong. But as someone else has pointed out the early press releases and the minutes from the Open Meeting at the Manxman referred to the group as BRAG. So can't really be faulted. But now I know the connotations, won't be using it again.

The Action Groups upcoming action, meeting with the Premier League, FA etc deserves to be commended. And also getting on board prominent people of Blackburn is also very commendable.

Fair play to Glen and the others on the Action Group committee.

[PAFELL]

With no financial backing and heavily reliant on us all doing extra hours at work to fund the group, and kind donations, we have done our best on producing leaflets, posters, a fully functional website.

The cost of going to Doncaster, but in particular London as meetings will go over a couple of days, is going to be vast and well over a £1000, i know personally due to time off work I must take its going to cost me £300 in lost revenue just to attend these meetings. Then we have to pay to go. We have had one or two donations from kind supporters, but these have been infrequent

Well as I live further south than London - two further hours travel time. I fully understand the cost. Hence why I cannot attend meetings. Time is my main issue not money. London costs, I know.

[Sparky Marky]

With no financial backing and heavily reliant on us all doing extra hours at work to fund the group, and kind donations, we have done our best on producing leaflets, posters, a fully functional website.

The cost of going to Doncaster, but in particular London as meetings will go over a couple of days, is going to be vast and well over a £1000, i know personally due to time off work I must take its going to cost me £300 in lost revenue just to attend these meetings. Then we have to pay to go. We have had one or two donations from kind supporters, but these have been infrequent

Over a grand? Meetings? Expenses? Sounds like you're having a ball my friend. London...

What is it you're actually achieving....I mean, there's no tangibles....the owners won't talk....you're just playing businessman.

[Glenn]

Sorry Glen, I removed my original post as I felt it just furthered a pointless argument that benefited nobody.

I've learnt the hard way I simply don't have time to commit to being part of another group. Ignoring my day job, keeping this community ticking over takes up almost all of my spare time and even the evening every few months that the FF takes up proves difficult to find.

I'd genuinely love somebody LIKE me (but not me) to stand though .

[glen9mullan]

Well as I live further south than London - two further hours travel time. I fully understand the cost. Hence why I cannot attend meetings. Time is my main issue not money. London costs, I know.

I do sense a turn in the tide though regardless of affiliation to groups etc, There was a glass half full mentality in the BRSIT meeting today and it was packed and not enough chairs.

Furthemore 95% of the room had not pledged when the meeting started, by the end when asked the question who will still not pledge, I think only one hand went up.

Will it work? Who knows, but there is no harm in trying.

Supporters all seem to be of the same opinion regarding rovers, and dont need to be part of any group to feel this way.

So as a united fan base, I think we are united in the sense that people all want the same regarding the clubs future, and with that, its massive progress

[RibbleValleyRover]

Many a time folk who did not get involved in protests etc were told they are not true supporters, pro venkys, pro kean. Threats. Much abuse given because they did not agree with some of the actions.

So the people who decided to protest didn't get flak from those not protesting or were anti protest? Let's be brutally honest and truthful here, there was just as mud slinging and accusations being thrown around by those sitting on the other side of the fence in regards to the protest movement.

[mark1875]

Yes. Nobody is saying you're not doing more and achieving more than BRST (which is what I assume you're alluding to). I like you waited such a long time for it to get going, despite so badly wanting it to work too. It's no secret that I got so frustrated I tried to help by trying to get people involved that had set up BRISA (in the hope it would kickstart things) but the new personnel is a fairly recent move. Will it get off the ground, I have no idea. Will it lessen what the Action Group does? Of course not, I think they are likely to be targeting a very different type of fan to the Action Group (I don't know, other than pushing a few people to get involved, I'm not really involved myself).

Ultimately, whilst I know the Action Group genuinely represents a LOT of fans, there are a lot of fans who genuinely think SOME of the actions of the Action Group means they could never get behind them. I know it probably isn't truly representative, but I spend a lot more "face to face" time with Rovers fans who fall into that category, than those who don't (and we're talking around serious home & away fans here, not guys who may buy walk-ons 3 or 4 times a year). Don't they deserve a voice too? What if a serial Rovers Fan wanted you to represent his views, would you?

You guys are doing some great work now, but I don't think people should be limited to your way or no way.

First paragraph, i was not just alluding to one particular group but most of them. That was the umbrella that could have united the supporters, if it has taken a personnel change to give it one last chance, then shame on those who held it up and failed it whom it seems needed to be replaced, perhaps they are the ones who should be asking for forgiveness.

There are a LOT of fans the Action Group represents, it is currently the largest supporters group the club has in terms of members, yet comes under critism, as we'd expect all groups too. However those involved can hold their heads high proud of their attempts, unlike some - as you pretty much confirmed when you alluded to the need for personnel change in the official, funded body. If a "serial Rovers Fan" wanted us as a group to represent his then of course it is a difficult one, we would sit and listen to him/her and give them the time they deserve as a supporter of the club, rather than just rubbish their opinions and dismiss them. The group which is going to be funded to represent my views agreed the protesters "need putting on a lead" so where does my representation come him? at least as a group, we would give people the time they are entitled to. Everyone has the right to have somebody represent their views and whilst i have mine and Glen has his and the group has its, we will remain exclusive to nobody regardless of personal opinion.

As above nobody is limited to our way or no way, however thats not the impression i was greeted with by the supporters trust when i attended their meeting, so do they need to be forgiven for this attitude too?

We as a group are doing more good than bad and it is kind of pathetic when we get constant criticism and told we need to be 'forgiven' for doing what we thought was right, and what a hell of a lot of supporters thought was right.

[glen9mullan]

Over a grand? Meetings? Expenses? Sounds like you're having a ball my friend. London...

What is it you're actually achieving....I mean, there's no tangibles....the owners won't talk....you're just playing businessman.

7 people going to London, 4 people going to doncaster, having to stop over too when we go London, hey I guess we must be having a ball.

I forgot its free to travel and stay over in the UK

[St_Jimmy_77]

And the people who decided to protest didn't get flak from those not protesting or were anti protest? Let's be brutally honest and truthful here, there was just as mud slinging and accusations being thrown around by those sitting on the other side of the fence in regards to the protest movement.

From first hand experience; there was plenty of mud slinging from both sides. I even got involved, which now I know was childish and immature. So just let people / groups get on with whatever course of action they deem necessary or voted to do.

[mark1875]

I don't think you realise, but rovers have a lot of supporters who do not live in the area. Those are not likely to attend such meetings due to cost and time involved. They are reliant on hearing outcomes from sites like this. I would not know about leaflets as I do not live up there. People have commitments etc so may chose not to attend for those reasons. Simple reasons such as being unable to get somebody to look after the kids etc etc. Nightshift workers - but many reasons. But it dosent mean they were not interested. Maybe you could not have done more at that time to let people know about the manxman meeting. But to critisize those who were not there and say they refused or were not interested, is plain wrong.

Even todays meeting - what was the attendance 600 - but not thousands. Again, it does not mean everybody else were not interested or refused to come.

Again i will repeat "Many where unable to attend, equally many people CHOSE not to attend"

Many a time folk who did not get involved in protests etc were told they are not true supporters, pro venkys, pro kean. Threats. Much abuse given because they did not agree with some of the actions.

I have never one abused anyone or threatened anyone for having their opinion, yet people don't share the same courtesy in return. If anyone has abused you, which we have spoken about and you know my feelings on the situation from a personal level, one person does not tar the group. People cannot paint a group as bad because of individuals then refuse to paint it in a good light despite good individuals.

The Action Groups upcoming action, meeting with the Premier League, FA etc deserves to be commended. And also getting on board prominent people of Blackburn is also very commendable.

Fair play to Glen and the others on the Action Group committee.

Kudos! as Glenn correctly pointed out, own goals were scored and mistakes taken but nobody is perfect, we took the advice of many many people, traveled the country to speak to other supporters groups to hear of their successes, took advice and made changes, this is called going the extra mile, not many would bother, it was needed for the sake of the club we all hold so dear and that is why people in the group spend week to week seeking ways to pro actively find answers to its members questions.

[St_Jimmy_77]

First paragraph, i was not just alluding to one particular group but most of them. That was the umbrella that could have united the supporters, if it has taken a personnel change to give it one last chance, then shame on those who held it up and failed it whom it seems needed to be replaced, perhaps they are the ones who should be asking for forgiveness.

Mark;

You and I have had very public disagreements over the Trust. I said things that haven't been befitting of maturity and integrity. I apologise for that sincerely.

However from my perspective I stood down as Secretary due to issues with work and another issue that I don't wish to disclose publically but it means I could no longer be a part of the Trust as it would contravene the rules and regulations the Trust have to abide by to be allowed to run. So no shame on my part. And I'm certainly not going to be apologising for me looking after my health and wellbeing.

[Glenn]

First paragraph, i was not just alluding to one particular group but most of them. That was the umbrella that could have united the supporters, if it has taken a personnel change to give it one last chance, then shame on those who held it up and failed it whom it seems needed to be replaced, perhaps they are the ones who should be asking for forgiveness.

There are a LOT of fans the Action Group represents, it is currently the largest supporters group the club has in terms of members, yet comes under critism, as we'd expect all groups too. However those involved can hold their heads high proud of their attempts, unlike some - as you pretty much confirmed when you alluded to the need for personnel change in the official, funded body. If a "serial Rovers Fan" wanted us as a group to represent his then of course it is a difficult one, we would sit and listen to him/her and give them the time they deserve as a supporter of the club, rather than just rubbish their opinions and dismiss them. The group which is going to be funded to represent my views agreed the protesters "need putting on a lead" so where does my representation come him? at least as a group, we would give people the time they are entitled to. Everyone has the right to have somebody represent their views and whilst i have mine and Glen has his and the group has its, we will remain exclusive to nobody regardless of personal opinion.

As above nobody is limited to our way or no way, however thats not the impression i was greeted with by the supporters trust when i attended their meeting, so do they need to be forgiven for this attitude too?

We as a group are doing more good than bad and it is kind of pathetic when we get constant criticism and told we need to be 'forgiven' for doing what we thought was right, and what a hell of a lot of supporters thought was right.

Sorry, I worded that very badly. "Additional Personnel" mainly people who'd done this all before (all be it at a time when the club was well run, so it had nothing to fight for).

I'm kinda lost on the second paragraph, especially with regards funding. But then, as I said, I've not really been involved with the supporters trust, so I've probably missed something.. I feel like I'm expected to defend the supporters trust here, but I really don't know enough about it (you've been to one of their meeting, so you're one step ahead of me). All I know is they know have some people I know and trust trying to drive the forward. What I am defending however (and I think you're agreeing) is that people should have a choice who represents them and a single choice isn't good.

I assume the last paragraph isn't aimed at me. Recently I've not been critical at all (quite complimentary of what you've achieved and how far you've come in fact) and the past ... we'll ... it's in the past and it can stay there.

[Sparky Marky]

7 people going to London, 4 people going to doncaster, having to stop over too when we go London, hey I guess we must be having a ball.

I forgot its free to travel and stay over in the UK

And all this has achieved what?

[glen9mullan]

And all this has achieved what?

Will tell you when we get back, but instead of dissing people for trying can you please tell me what you are doing?

[mark1875]

Mark;

You and I have had very public disagreements over the Trust. I said things that haven't been befitting of maturity and integrity. I apologise for that sincerely.

However from my perspective I stood down as Secretary due to issues with work and another issue that I don't wish to disclose publically but it means I could no longer be a part of the Trust as it would contravene the rules and regulations the Trust have to abide by to be allowed to run. So no shame on my part. And I'm certainly not going to be apologising for me looking after my health and wellbeing.

Nor would i ask you to James, your health takes priority without a doubt.

My point was simply that why should we be seeking forgiveness and asking people to forget when every group has made mistakes, it was not a post aimed directly at you and if it was taken that way then i apologise.

Fair play to you for stepping down and allowing someone who can give more time to the role, no shame in that.

[St_Jimmy_77]

Nor would i ask you to James, your health takes priority without a doubt.

My point was simply that why should we be seeking forgiveness and asking people to forget when every group has made mistakes, it was not a post aimed directly at you and if it was taken that way then i apologise.

Fair play to you for stepping down and allowing someone who can give more time to the role, no shame in that.

No mate; didn't think it was aimed at me but felt it necessary to put my side of things across.

I appreciate your approach in not broaching the subject. It's been a tough few months. I'm just gutted I couldn't continue but like you say health has to take priority, as much as it hurts letting people down. But it's time to look forward, not backward.

Sent you a PM by the way.

Thanks for understanding :-)

[Tom]

I wondered why there was a five page thread about a football team in the blackburn combination!

[mark1875]

I wondered why there was a five page thread about a football team in the blackburn combination!

And i bet you wished you stopped reading 5 pages ago lol

[mark1875]

I thought I would clear this up a wee bit,

Sir Bill Taylor and I have been in contact throughout this season regarding the issues at rovers.

This past week he became an Honorary Patron of the BRFC Action Group (NOT BRAG)

He contacted me and Mark Fish regarding my thoughts on a coalition type meeting, and asked if I thought other groups would be up for it?

I said its worth a try and I passed on details of BRST, BRFCS, Vital Blackburn , FF and one or two others. Sir Bill then contacted them all, and some sent representatives and some did not

The Action Group sent Mark Fish and Rob Crabtree from our elected committee

BRFCS/FF Sent Ste B

BRST Sent John Waring who is now the secretary of both the FF and BRST and also Ozz the Chairman another from supporters trust attended

Graham Jones MP who is actively involved with the Action Group and BRSIT attended along with Sir Bill Taylor

David Metcalfe 4000 holes

There was one or two others there, and Im sure Mark Fish will clear this up when he post later

I was surprised that the name "Blackburn United" Was used in the LET today as we as a group have not agreed to form or be part of new formed group.

Its my understanding that all groups in attendance put across what they have been doing regarding rovers.

The BRFC Action Group is NOT a protest group, although we have actively organised legal demonstrations throughout this season to give supporters a platform to air their discontent in an organised manner to prevent the message being lost in translation. All protest was done in co-ordination with the Police and the club and no arrest have ever occured during an organised protest. The group has been praised by both the club and the Police for their efficiency and conduct.

The group was formed due to supporters having no voice and no group being out-there to present a voice. The time for a group was then, when a supporters voice was needed

What have we been doing recently???

We have 3 honoury Patrons of the group

Sir Bill Taylor, Maureen Bateson MBE, Wayne Hemingway MBE

We are the only Blackburn Rovers supporters group to my Knowledge who is officially affiliated and endorsed by the FSF (Football supporters Federation)

We now have 17 branches Worldwide, including USA, Ireland, Australia, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Indonesia, Canada, Brazil, Finland, Argentina, Singapore, New Zealand, Italy, Zimbabwe, Thailand, and India.

The group is officially backed by

Jack Straw MP

Graham Jones MP

Cllr Michael Lee

Salim Mulla Deputy Mayor of Blackburn & Darwen

Zamir Khan New Mayor of Blackburn & Darwen

Lord Patel

Kate Hollern Leader of Blackburn Council

Cllr Stephanie Brookfield

Ibby Masters ( Community Leader)

We have had meetings with all these people and they have not only backed the group but have issued statements of support and faciliatated more contacts and supporters who we also hope to get on board.. They have also written personal endorsements which we will issue to the Premier League and Sports Minister in person.

Our members worldwide are in the thousands,

We are the only supporters group with a democratically elected committee by its members.

Our membership is free and open to everyone. We have never recieved funding from any legal entity and most things have been funded out of our own pockets. The cost of being a rovers supporter this season has increased ten fold.

We have a BRFC Action Football team who supported the Denise Hendry foundation in a tounament last month, where we entered 25% of the teams in attendance including the only Womens team who played without fear against the men

We have supported the Youth Zone Charity(Run by David Dunn)

Whilst also raising money for Chorley FC

We have donated prizes for tomorrows charity event in aid of East Lancs hospice, due to Blackburn Rovers refusing to.

We have set up meetings with the Sports Minister and Premier League, whilst we are in direct contact with the FA, Football League and Uefa.

We have called 3 open supporters meetings, and all our meetings are minuted including committee meetings and put on our website www.brfcactiongroup.co.uk.

We have done blanket leaflet and poster drops for Action Groups activites and also for the BRSIT. at least 30000 of these have been put out by our members free of charge.

The BRFC Action Group is an official supporter group for everyone, and we will be looking to take our committee here in the UK to 10 members due to the heavy work load and the number of members we have.

Blackburn Rovers is a 365/366 day a year job for the Action Group, its members are dedicated supporters who only want whats best for the club.

If anyone would like to join please feel free to get in contact with:

[email protected]

[email protected] group secretary

[email protected] Treasurer

[email protected] Supporter Liaison

[email protected] Marketing

[email protected] overseas liaison officer

[email protected] communciation officer

This is basically what was asked at the meeting and im sure the other groups will post what they have been doing and their future plans

As I said earlier prob missed loads off but Mark will fill you in

Anyway back on track, the meeting consisted of 10 people in a room, the main structure of the meeting was each group outlining their intentions, plans and progress. I think its only fair that its put out to all supporters on here who were not present, Glen has stated ours, other groups may want to follow suit............

[FourLaneBlue]

Isn't complaining about the use of the word 'United' a bit pathetic? Our club is being ripped apart and people are whining about syllables just because it is used by a club in Manchester that is way out of our league anyhow?

Sod the name, get behind the idea. Don't care if it is called Blackburn Clarets as long as it puts pressure on those tools that own the club.

[FourLaneBlue]

y

I disagree. As I said right at the start, no one group could ever hope to represent all fans. That's not the fault of any group, they all do their best to represent the members (as they should), but we have such a wide diversity of fans and opinions that no one group could ever dream of representing everyone. You're never going to get hardcore protesters and Rovers Fans represented by the same group are you?

You disagree with what exactly? That a load of random people meeting in a load of different groupings are hardly going to get the likes of Kean and Desai trembling?

Disagree all you like. However, without some kind of focused campaign, the fall of Venky's/Kean etc will be despite these types of groups, and certainly not because of them.

[Paul]

BRAG Is a name of a group i believe existed in the past and was quite extreme,

We are called simply BRFC Action Group and have no links prior or since with the other group

Just in case there are folk who don't know what a "mailing list" is - it's simply a load of e-mail addresses which allows one click to send to everyone - apologies but I'm trying to help by being very clear.

I would like to help clear this up. I was a member of this mailing list - it was nothing other than a bunch of people who had different snippets of information and chose to share it with each other - to an extent I think we all had a personal "need" to talk and were very unsure about how to handle things we knew. This was it nothing more or less, we just exchanged information by e-mail. These people came together and exchanged the first e-mails on 25th January 2011, I still have them all. The name really came about because when one creates a Yahoo mailing list it needs a name to work!! I don't think we ever considered ourselves a "group."

If anyone wishes to consider me as an extremist, that's OK, but I think my history here and amongst the people I know who would say the opposite. I don't want to reveal the names of others on the list but I doubt any would have a problem with identifying themselves. None are extremists.

Accusing me of being in an extremist group prior to the formation of the action group is pure slander , especially as you don't know anything about the old brag , as Glenn said it was a secret group which no-one knew about, including me.

I don't know what PAFELL was trying to say Glen but I think you need to accept many, many people have shortened your group's name to BRAG and I suspect it has stuck. Quite how that happened I'm not sure but for me it came from stuff I read here and on the original Facebook page and website. Getting the new name, BRFC Action Group, to stick will be tough.

I think it is wrong to describe the mailing list as "secret" - its members had information which at the time was not common knowledge, which we wanted to discuss but couldn't put in the public domain. Most of this information, in fact without checking I think all, is now in the public domain. It was simply not appropriate to share the information at that time. I would guess, stress guess, you've discovered most of the information for yourself and quite possibly from similar sources. The mailing list hasn't been used recently other than when I and another wanted to communicate with all of those people about BRST - Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust - in an attempt to help move it forward.

Blackburn rovers action group has often been commonly known as brag. By many on here.

I think this is true and is the case for many, many fans. I would still refer to BRFC Action Group because it seems to have grown out of a combination of "Blackburn Rovers" and "Action Group" the second beinh how I feel Glen and his colleagues described themselves on many occassions when facilitating the protests and out of which has grown BRFC Action Group.

I think it matters because I, for one, would have carried on calling Glen's group BRAG - which would probably have offended him as in his view this was an extremist group with which he was not, and does not want to be associated.

I think that the record should be put straight so that everyone understands the distinction.

I will no longer refer to Glen's group as BRAG now I know the connotations.

This place infuriates me sometimes, as it goes.

Stuart - I hope my comment helps

I do not like lines such as this, whilst the BRFC Action Group has arranged protests from a legal platform for the supporters this season, the group is not primarily a protest group. 95% of what the group does is not protest related, it is an FSF affiliated supporters group, we remain the most advanced and pro-active representation that Blackburn Rovers supporters have.

Being seen merely as a protest group is quite offensive considering the committee and the members it represents have made major inroads in gaining clarification for the supporters with both political and governing bodies.

I think this has a lot of relevance and I'd acknowldege the huge strides which have been made. You shouldn't be offended though as most groups, not only football related ones, take a long. long time to shake off the image created in the early stages. First impressions and all that. For me BRFC Action Group has grown out of the original protest group which Glen, and I think yourself, facilitated (I use this word as it is how Glen described it on several occassions and I'm trying to avoid putting words in anyone's mouth). In a couple of PMs to me Glen used the initials BRAG several months ago..

I have never one abused anyone or threatened anyone for having their opinion, yet people don't share the same courtesy in return. If anyone has abused you, which we have spoken about and you know my feelings on the situation from a personal level, one person does not tar the group. People cannot paint a group as bad because of individuals then refuse to paint it in a good light despite good individuals.

Could you then explain why you made posts on this message board which derided me and refered to me in a way I associate more with the playground than a discussion board? I don't think I have ever derided anyone on here in the manner you chose to use with me. I have made no criticism and raised no questions in relation to BRFC Action Group for months, nor will I do so, but when I read your words above I'm disturbed by them.

One last word in the interest of being completely open; I was one of those who looked to help the Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust to move forward. I put some time in for a short period but quickly realised my personal situation in relation to work and being unable to drive till July meant I could not make a real committment. I'm delighted others have been able to step forward and I hope to make a contribution in the future but am unsure what that will be. I've never mentioned it before simply because at the time Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust had a low profile and was not ready to be more public. I was invited, I did not put myself forward.

[philipl]

I have just scanned this thread and am confused- hate to think what your average woman in a bungalow in Pune makes of it!

All power to Sir Bill to pull the strings together.