[Archived] euro12 thread

[magicalmortensleftpeg]

This is the part I struggle to accept, and most England fans should as well. Why don't we have the players to play in any other style than smash it up the pitch and hope Rooney or Carroll gets a head to it? Why can't our ridiculously well-paid players, most of whom play in what is generally considered to be one of if not the best league in the world, pass it to each other like Spain or Germany do? I was embarrassed by our hopeless long ball tactics this evening, every time we had the ball we just gave it right back to Italy. Our ball retention was so bad it genuinely reminded me of watching Rovers last season.

And let's be clear - Italy are not an amazing team. They're good, but not great. We should have been able to give the Italians a game and instead we were obliterated and made to look distinctly inferior. Man for man, surely the Italian players are on far less money than our boys? Why? Why can't our players pass and move like they do? Why should we accept that smacking the ball up the pitch and putting in cross after cross is the only way we can win a match?

Football needs to change at grassroots level in this country and it needs to start ASAP. We're a nation going nowhere right now, and with the best will in the world our young players will win nothing in the future unless a serious rethink is done into the way we play the game. Football has moved on, England haven't.

Most of the English players who played this evening are very influential at their respective clubs and therefore earn the wages/respect that they do. The problem isn't that they're 'overhyped' or overpaid, its the type of players that they are. Parker for example, is very good at what he does, but at Spurs he plays alongside Luka Modric, Bale and Van der Vaart. Milner plays alongside Silva, Aguero and Yaya Toure. Gerrard with Suarez. Walcott with Van Persie, Arteta etc.

The point is that all the creative players at the top teams aren't English. The English players who play for City/Utd/Chelsea/Spurs are decent players, but none of them are particularly creative, certainly not in central midfield. Almost all the best English talent is defensively minded (Hart, Cole, Terry, Parker). We dont have any decent creative players. None who can pass their way through the opposition at least. Without those players we'll find it incredibly hard to maintain possession against any decent team.

Wilshere is the first player we've had in a while who might break the mould somewhat. Someone who could actually link the attack with the midfield without resorting to long balls. Keep him fit and then I reckon we could try and play a better brand of football in 2014, but there is still a long way to go.

[DE.]

The point is, Italy could and should have won that game comfortably. 9/10 times they would have done.

To put this into perspective somewhat, Ireland had more shots against Italy than we did. Ireland.

And why is it Croatia - a nation roughly the same size as Ireland - were able to give Italy a FAR more even match than us? Why can Croatia produce a ton of great technically minded players but apparently we can't produce any?

[Oklahoma]

I only saw a little resume of the game and it was clear to me that if Italy deserved to pass.

After every elimination, all national teams begin a process of analysis and trying to find the reasons for the failure.

I think that the mainly problem of England is that the national team doesn't have a project or a long time manager, that can chose whoever he wants, even less famous players for players that he actually thinks can fit the squad.

Some players shouldn't be called again due to their age and younger players should be played in the first team in order to have a competitive team for the WC.

Meanwhile, the youth teams should be better prepared and the players should receive a quality training in order to turn in quality pros.

[RoyRover]

To put this into perspective somewhat, Ireland had more shots against Italy than we did. Ireland.

Don't be ridiculous. No chance in hell. I think we only got the ball into their box on a couple of occassions. Steve Kean would not have been happy with that stat.

[Commondore]

To put this into perspective somewhat, Ireland had more shots against Italy than we did. Ireland.

...and still didn't score any and let two goals past their keeper.

[jim mk2]

will the Danes, Czechs, Croatians or the Poles be having the same amount of doom and gloom surrounding their teams eliminations? I doubt it.

They probably will. The Dutch are certainly tearing themselves apart at the moment. England is one of the world's leading football nations and the national team's supporters have high expectations and of course there is despondency when the team comes up short. But that does not mean England fans are "arrogant" because they have high expectations and because there is a media inquest when the team fails. The Scots and Irish need to grow up.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

How many saves did Hart have to make? The two shots against the post were pretty much undefendable, apart from that I think England looked very solid defensively apart from their inability to put Balotelli in an offside position. I agree that there were a lot of last ditch defending as well, but that's part of defender's job despriptions and no one had to clear balls off the line or mow down a player with an open goal.

There was that De Rossi chance when he skewed it wide. A lot of last ditch defending is far from a good thing. It implies all other means of defending has failed so a last ditch tackle is needed when it normally shouldn't have. Your defence played well but defending starts from the front and they (particularly Pirlo) were allowed too much space. You also rode your luck at times, not just them hitting the post but when Hart parried it back into the 6 yard box.

Small minded Celtic nation mentality? We are discussing England aren't we? I'd happily discuss how bad Ireland, Scotland or Wales are in world football if that's what we were talking about. I won't be accused of having a small minded national mental by someone from England.

Exactly. I mean the media often dismiss foreign players although I have heard plenty of English fans do the same when I lived in England. Certain England fans can be small-minded when they argue they should be winning tournaments because they have Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Cole, Ferdinand, Terry etc in their team. Even though 6-8 other nations have at least an equally strong squad. And how are Celtic nations small-minded?

[Rovermatt]

On the subject of the game, I feel that the better team went through eventually, though I was sure that England were about to break their streak in penalty shootouts (as they must, at some point, do). The English looked dead on their feet by the hour mark quite frankly. Chasing an average Italian side enjoying over 60% of possession is one thing but, given the three previous fixtures - more minority possession against France and Ukraine along with a typical blood and thunder win over the Swedes - it is hardly surprising that Gerrard, Parker and co looked so knackered. I though the Italians looked average at best and, Pirlo aside, were really quite careless in possession but they were basically in complete control this evening.

I was baffled to see Pirlo wandering around midfield at his leisure. Not once did England make a concerted effort to contain him. At 33 years old he's bound to have weaknesses but he was totally unflustered for 120 minutes. He is an exceptional player no doubt and I find it strange therefore that nobody bothered to pressure him.

As to the wider malaise it was amusing to see the Beeb, in all earnestness, kicking off the nation's self-flagellation only minutes after they were propagating the line that England, for all the obvious deficiencies, could "still do this." I think that years of abject underachievement from a serious footballing nation has done some seriously strange things to the national psyche, something which the media in turn will try to reflect.

Yet looking at it objectively, the continuing inability of England's highly remunerated, endlessly feted internationals to retain possession of the ball, to pass to one another for a sustained period of time and thus fail to offer any real forward threat, against the world's leading teams, can only ever end one way. I have to say I've been puzzled by the increasingly vociferous delusion that this team could somehow go all the way considering the bankrupt tactics that are employed time after time (tactics that are then pored over, criticised, held up as symptomatic of the entire problem before being re-embraced in the absence of anything else) by the national side.

Only 30 minutes after the team exited the competition are there people on the Sky Sports phone-in proclaiming that the answer is not to play with more skill, patience and tactical nous. The way forward is instead to employ more pace and intensity just like the Premier League. This is exactly what the likes of Spain, Germany and even Italy want. They want the opposition to bomb forward and abandon their positions, to become disorganised. The obvious superior technique of their players will surely give them the edge if the likes of Gerrard, Johnson and Milner are rushing about like they are playing in a Super Sunday tie at Anfield. While this approach is not without its merits, the Premier League, while incredibly exciting, is not a hotbed of tactical discipline likely to foster success for the national team. The two things are not analogous and until the notion that these continentals are unable to live with a high tempo, masquerading as a game plan, is dispelled I can only see the English continuing to struggle with, and be surprised by, the ability of the world's top teams to outwit them.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

They probably will. The Dutch are certainly tearing themselves apart at the moment. England is one of the world's leading football nations and the national team's supporters have high expectations and of course there is despondency when the team comes up short. But that does not mean England fans are "arrogant" because they have high expectations and because there is a media inquest when the team fails. The Scots and Irish need to grow up.

He didn't mention the Dutch. A nation that got to the World Cup final last time, for a third time I believe, before losing all 3 games this time, including one to Denmark who I presume they imagined they would win against.

England is not one of the world's leading football nations, only in England is that believed. England fans love to slag off Scotland, Ireland etc just as much as the other way round. It is not just because you have high expectations, but rather they are unfounded and do a disservice to other top footballing nations. And all the excuses.

[Audax]

Roy's 4th game in charge, it would not surprise me that he could figure out a better attack with tme... I think Carrol was really trying hard out there and unfortunately, Rooney did not come through again. I don't slate Ashley Cole and England missed 2 or 3 pens but Cole's was rather abysmal but they happen. Kind of makes you wonder if Redknapp would have approached it differently but I'm glad RH is in there nonetheless. No room for criticism, England did not allow a ball in goal in 120 minutes, just didn't put much in going the other way.

With all due respect to all teams, Groups A and D were markably weaker than Groups B and C where all the winners of these games came from. You almost wonder if they were trying to schedule big time games with matches like Germany/Netherlands and if they wanted the hosts to have a chance to advance. I wonder how Denmark and England would square off. Still, England got 2 wins in the group stage and drew France who are clearly in a bit of the same boat, perhaps weaker. Very frustrating, why does it end this way always?

I think they have to keep Roy on.....

[Commondore]

There was that De Rossi chance when he skewed it wide. A lot of last ditch defending is far from a good thing. It implies all other means of defending has failed so a last ditch tackle is needed when it normally shouldn't have. Your defence played well but defending starts from the front and they (particularly Pirlo) were allowed too much space. You also rode your luck at times, not just them hitting the post but when Hart parried it back into the 6 yard box.

I'm not English, not even British, and I don't live there either. Just giving my neutral perspective, and I think England defended well with a mediocre side set up to do just that. Last ditch defending is certainly a bad thing (structurally) when it means desperate lunges to clear balls on the goal line or stuff like that, but here it felt more like defenders using their strengths against a superior side.

[Audax]

Roberto Martinez praises Portugal's manager; http://www.soccerway...entos-portugal/

Klinsmann notes how Italy were able to be the much more physical team and they didn't have size.

Heck, USA played Italy to a draw in '06 as well... that's why I think Caroll did well, physical presence, could have used more of that.

[Rovermatt]

All that bling, diamond earrings, chrome Lambos and £300 earphones and you couldn't hit the net from 12 yards. Ashley Cole, Ashley Young, you just got found out.

Look, we won our group but were clearly second best tonight. Despite incessant criticism from one poster on here I (and most of the commentary teams on the radio) think that Gerrard really put a shift in during this tournament. I'm not biased because of my username, been in Manchester for 8 years !.

Let the Scots and the Irish take the Mick, they didn't get anywhere (as usual)

In fairness the Scots and the Irish, knowing their limitations all too well, expect very little. Nor do they whip themselves into a fervour unless it involves which pub to go to next.

[RoyRover]

They probably will. The Dutch are certainly tearing themselves apart at the moment. England is one of the world's leading football nations and the national team's supporters have high expectations and of course there is despondency when the team comes up short. But that does not mean England fans are "arrogant" because they have high expectations and because there is a media inquest when the team fails. The Scots and Irish need to grow up.

I don't need to grow up. We are having an open discussion about England. I could talk about the stormy weather we've been having, but what would that have to do with the discussion on England we are having? No, they probably won't have the same frenzied and soul searching analysis (apart from the Dutch). They realise their place in world football and it is very much at the same level as England. There is absolutely no need for the fans and media to wiping themselves up into a frenzy after tonights result, like what I was watching on You're On Sky Sports directly after the game.

There finally seemed to be a common acceptance after the pitiful performance at the last World Cup and the proceeding tournaments that England weren't one of the world's best teams. I never said that England fans are arrogant. Obviously you are bound to be disappointed. I was gutted when Ireland got stuffed match after match. We weren't even close to be good enought to even compete with the other teams. I think you are missing my point. England have done well to get to the quarters, when you consider where they were two years ago and the players they have at their disposal. And of course there will be an assessment of the team and where it went wrong. I'm saying that I hope that the media and fans don't come down too hard on them because they are an average side with average players and have gotten to the quarter finals which is their level. I'm not saying anything controversial or out of place here, just what everyone knew was the case before the tournament started and nothing has really happened throughout the tournament to change that. I don't see how what I'm saying is in anyway objectionable or insulting.

[Rovermatt]

I hope there isn't a glut of finger-pointing in the wake of this defeat. The problems afflicting the national team are certainly much bigger than one or two people. Personally I think Hodgson's a nice man and a very decent coach. However, with his strict adherence to 4-4-2 and tactical rigidity I just wonder if he can truly lead this team in the direction it needs to go. Time will tell of course.

[Audax]

Rovermatt, that's a good point, I'm going to add on again, England could have been more physical. I think Carrol was a real asset when he came on but he came on in the 60th I think. I don't mean to make a deal about sugar and diet but it seems the big man did get tired soon. One excuse is saying England were tired, okay, still, Italy had only one more day of rest being in group C vs. England's group D.

Is it really about diet? I've heard things like this before:

We must get our kids to play, play, play. Realise it’s not all about being strong, big or fast.

Look at Pirlo against England — he had no pace, strength and he’s ancient. But what a fabulous display. - Redknapp http://www.thesun.co...nd-verdict.html

Hate quoting the Sun but this is exactly so. Of course, the Italians have long had a careful diet for their footballers. I'd think the topflight now should have that ingrained in them. As for Rooney, he has mostly looked a bit pudgy to me for as long as he has played .

And France, that '98 team I guess has a number of stars, Henry, Petit, Blanc, a lot of good players but the best of those teams have always had one individual who stands way above the rest, Zidane and before that, imho, I think Platini fit the view, great player, don't like his political views.

[JAL]

Think we should all look at football agents in this country and the amount of shyte they have brought into this country and ask why the FA jumped into bed with them.

[American Rover12]

Quite happy to be a part of a forum that has good football discussions and in depth breakdowns with posters all over bringing up some great points and stats without disintegrating to pettiness. Oh, except for these highlights:

This is the website of an English football club so the vast majority of members are English. Be careful

As a "proud Scot" perhaps you should keep quiet after your country's dismal fall from grace. I think it's sad that the Celtic nations enjoy England defeats - just shows their small nation mentality.

sorry salgado but your clearly a bitter scot then, whose own national side is far behind everyone else, you're at the same level as the faroe islands and the likes of moldova, i am not saying that out of spite either, if i was you i would take more interest in my own national team's vast shortcomings

Rein yourself in - the small-minded Celtic nation mentality does you no credit.

:lol:

[Andy]

All fair comments.

[Mattyblue]

Is this Salgado bloke for real or what?

Who are these 'arrogant England fans?'

We are average, the fans know we are average. You want to stop thinking that The Sun and talksport represent our views.

[Andy]

Is this Salgado bloke for real or what?

Who are these 'arrogant England fans?'

We are average, the fans know we are average. You want to stop thinking that The Sun and talksport represent our views.

Nail and head.

[thenodrog]

I'm delighted you're out. There, I said it.

Now tell us something we don't know T4E.

Here's a question you and Salgado etc might be able to answer.... Why have the Scots taken on the embittered characteristics of Burnley fans?

Please try and answer without using the words jealousy, inferiority and resentment.

[thenodrog]

England is not one of the world's leading football nations, only in England is that believed. England fans love to slag off Scotland, Ireland etc just as much as the other way round. It is not just because you have high expectations, but rather they are unfounded and do a disservice to other top footballing nations. And all the excuses.

Temper your bitterness with this ..... the fact remains that poor as we are a GB team would only contain one player from the combined Home countries and that would be Gareth Bale (who imo is actually the best too).

[eire3382]

The line up for the semis is quite strong, but I still think Gernamy will do it.

As for England, to be fair they did as you would just about expect. Italy were far better but England just about stayed with them. In many ways it highlighted that its time for a new younger team. Possibly also a change of style.

As for those giving Hodgson stick remember he had little time to change things drastically and really was stuck with what the previous manager used. He is a good manager and will do well with England as long as everyone remembers to be realistic with expectations.

[Ozz]

At least England are consistant.