[Archived] euro12 thread

[Mattyblue]

He's an argumentative beggar this lad, and The real football is two months away.

[Majiball]

Do the european club rankings not take into account all competitions entered and there grading, over the last X years???

Barca are still top.

[jim mk2]

After most Euros, people would say that the winners were the best country in Europe at that time. But I doubt many would have said that after Denmark and Greece won it. So how could that be.

Denmark and Greece were European champions and therefore the best teams in Europe because they were the best teams in that particualr tournament. They do no not have to retain the trophy over a number of years to be called the "best" because they were the best team at that particular time. In 2004 Germany et al were not particularly strong and were not good enough to beat Greece - to say otherwise is belittling their achievement. By your argument England were also unworthy winners of the 1966 football and 2003 rugby World Cups, and one-off champions in sports such as snooker and darts do not deserve to be called the "best" because they failed to sustain it over successive tournaments. I'm afraid your reasoning does not hold water and is just arguing for the sake of it. Very disappointing for an "educated" "modern historian" - presumably from one of the old polytechnics.

[thenodrog]

I do wish Pirlo would shut the (Please don't use that word again) up.

Personally I think criticism from an Italian of other nations being defensive / cynical / playing for pens to be somewhat ironic.

Winning the European Champions League gives that club the right to be called the champion club of Europe - the clue is in the title. At present Chelsea are the champions of Europe, ie Europe's No 1 team. To say otherwise is to render the competition meaningless.

I disagree Jim. As far as I am concerned the entire competition lost a lot of meaning when it was changed from the old European Cup. There was NO debate over who were the Champions of Europe then was there? Vver the past half dozen years Chelsea would have been in the Cupwinners Cup / UEFA Cup back then and thought themselves lucky to be so. Unfortunately like so many good things in football over the years it has been sacrificed on the alter of greed.

[thenodrog]

Perfect sense. A team can only be the best in the competition it enters. Chelsea are the best club team in Europe until they lose their crown (or defend it successfully) next season. The fact they are not the English champions is irrelevant.

Disagree again. Chelsea won the FA Cup last season but according to the Prem table they are only the 6th best team in England.

[Mattyblue]

Then lets not bother having tournaments, just give the top ranked side a trophy.

[jim mk2]

I disagree Jim. As far as I am concerned the entire competition lost a lot of meaning when it was changed from the old European Cup. There was NO debate over who were the Champions of Europe then was there? Vver the past half dozen years Chelsea would have been in the Cupwinners Cup / UEFA Cup back then and thought themselves lucky to be so. Unfortunately like so many good things in football over the years it has been sacrificed on the alter of greed.

I agree about the European Cup / Uefa Cup but that's a different debate to the one we're having here.

According to the "modern historian" the old European Cup would have even less relevance because it is played over fewer games than the present overbloated Champions League.

Then lets not bother having tournaments, just give the top ranked side a trophy.

The top-ranked side according to the "modern historian", not the official world rankings.

[RoyRover]

Chelsea won this years Champions League fair and square. Now in my opinion they clearly aren't the best team in Europe. Barcelona, Bayern Munich (teams that they beat) and Real Madrid are clearly better than them as far as I am concerned. Chelsea were fortunate to win it, but they won it and deserve to be Champions of Europe. However when Barcelona won it the year before, I think everyone could rightly say that they were the best team in Europe.

When Greece won the Euro's, they did what they needed to do to win, but I didn't then think that they were better Spain, Holland, Germany, France, Italy, Croatia, England or Portugal.

It doesn't lessen their achievements if they don't go on to retain their titles.

[jim mk2]

Chelsea won this years Champions League fair and square. Now in my opinion they clearly aren't the best team in Europe. Barcelona, Bayern Munich (teams that they beat) and Real Madrid are clearly better than them as far as I am concerned. Chelsea were fortunate to win it, but they won it and deserve to be Champions of Europe. However when Barcelona won it the year before, I think everyone could rightly say that they were the best team in Europe.

When Greece won the Euro's, they did what they needed to do to win, but I didn't then think that they were better Spain, Holland, Germany, France, Italy, Croatia, England or Portugal.

It doesn't lessen their achievements if they don't go on to retain their titles.

It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else thinks. The champions of Europe and therefore the best team in Europe is the team that wins the Champions League and history records that this year it is Chelsea. Same applies to Greece in 2004.

[Oklahoma]

The semi finals start today with a very hot Portugal vs Spain.

Obviously, I want Portugal to win, I always do.

But there are other good reasons to support Portugal today (or, at least, to be against Spain):

- Platini "predicted" a Germany vs Spain final. That is enough for me to want a Portugal vs Italy final.

- Spain shouldn't have passed the group phase. Their game against Croatia was a scandal that everyone "forgot" because all attention turned to the Ukraine vs England game. It is quite strange that it happened because the goal that was disallowed wouldn't change much diference (Ukraine would still be 3rd) and the referee in Spains' game was just terrible.

- There are some people questioning the nomination of a turkish referee for the game. It was a german referee that took Spain to the quarter finals, it is a spaniard and a turkish that run (and chose) the referee's for the European games. After what Platini said, I wonder if is not mandatory that Germany and Spain are in the finals.

GO PORTUGAL!!!!

[joey_big_nose]

I am a huge fan of both the Spanish and German teams - absolutely sensational sides. BUt I always tend to favour the underdog so will be pleased i Portugal can pull off a smash and grab.

[DE.]

Spain are far from invincible, Portugal have every chance of pulling a result off if they give it a go. If they play like they did against Germany, however, they'll lose again.

[jim mk2]

European and world football needs a Portugal victory to bring an end to the dominance of Spain's anti-football which with Barcelona has made the game at the top level so dull and boring to watch over the past few years. I like Portugal's direct attacking style and in Christian Ronaldo they have the tournament and Europe's outstanding footballer.

Come on Portugal.

[A cup of beans]

European and world football needs a Portugal victory to bring an end to the dominance of Spain's anti-football which with Barcelona has made the game at the top level so dull and boring to watch over the past few years. I like Portugal's direct attacking style and in Christian Ronaldo they have the tournament and Europe's outstanding footballer.

Come on Portugal.

Well said, Jim. Spain dont excite me - At all.

With the talent they have, Spain should be exciting to watch.. but, sadly, they are unimaginative and boring.

Most of the passes are short and simple.

They have exceptionally gifted players- but even their creativity and artistry are stifled by the "system and gameplan."

On Ronaldo. Is it true he has a suit to himself (and his armed guards) and the rest of the Portugal team have to share normal rooms?

[Oklahoma]

As far as I know, no. Never heard it here and the portuguese press wouldn't keep quiet if it was true...

[A cup of beans]

As far as I know, no. Never heard it here and the portuguese press wouldn't keep quiet if it was true...

Thanks. Did seem extreme.

All the best for tonight. If Nani, Coentrão, and Ronaldo can get at this Spain defence theyve every chance.

Time for Almeida to show something too!

[Mattyblue]

If it's winning football, it's good football. Vamos Espana.

[Aberdeen Blue]

For all that I cannot stand the preening ponce that is Ronaldo....... entrar em Portugal!!

[MarkBRFC71]

European and world football needs a Portugal victory to bring an end to the dominance of Spain's anti-football which with Barcelona has made the game at the top level so dull and boring to watch over the past few years. I like Portugal's direct attacking style and in Christian Ronaldo they have the tournament and Europe's outstanding footballer.

Come on Portugal.

How is it anti-football when they're the reigning European and World champions? I think they are great to watch - it's usually only boring because the opposition have no answer to it and sit back like France did. And after England's performances it's a bit rich us calling anything 'anti- football'!

Will be interesting to see how Portugal counter Spain's style, but they are something of a one-man team (and a preening tosser at that) and I think the only team with a chance of stopping the Spaniards is Germany. Here's hoping for more tears from Cristiano.

[Oklahoma]

Spain were so good in the group phase that they needed the ref to help them through.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

He's an argumentative beggar this lad, and The real football is two months away.

If that is directed at me then with certain people you have to argue back with otherwise they presume things like they were right all along etc and their already-inflated ego becomes even bigger.

Denmark and Greece were European champions and therefore the best teams in Europe because they were the best teams in that particualr tournament. They do no not have to retain the trophy over a number of years to be called the "best" because they were the best team at that particular time. In 2004 Germany et al were not particularly strong and were not good enough to beat Greece - to say otherwise is belittling their achievement. By your argument England were also unworthy winners of the 1966 football and 2003 rugby World Cups, and one-off champions in sports such as snooker and darts do not deserve to be called the "best" because they failed to sustain it over successive tournaments. I'm afraid your reasoning does not hold water and is just arguing for the sake of it. Very disappointing for an "educated" "modern historian" - presumably from one of the old polytechnics.

I would never call the winners of a tournament unworthy winners. I can see this going round in circles even more. If you win it you deserve it end of. But if someone who didn't know anything about football asked me, "who are the best team in Europe?". I would probably say "maybe Barca, but Real Madrid beat them to the Spanish title so I would have to say them". If you don't retain any trophy you win, it takes nothing away from it, it's just my point was if Chelsea were to win the Champions League for the next 2 seasons it would make me re-evaluate whether or not they were actually the best. Chelsea could be classed as the best team in Europe because they won the Champions League, but Arsenal, Utd and City came higher in the League than them despite going out quicker in Europe. So in one respect they are better, but in another they are worse so I don't think you can call them better, in my opinion.

Chelsea won this years Champions League fair and square. Now in my opinion they clearly aren't the best team in Europe. Barcelona, Bayern Munich (teams that they beat) and Real Madrid are clearly better than them as far as I am concerned. Chelsea were fortunate to win it, but they won it and deserve to be Champions of Europe. However when Barcelona won it the year before, I think everyone could rightly say that they were the best team in Europe.

When Greece won the Euro's, they did what they needed to do to win, but I didn't then think that they were better Spain, Holland, Germany, France, Italy, Croatia, England or Portugal.

It doesn't lessen their achievements if they don't go on to retain their titles.

The first parts I agree with but I wasn't really arguing for the last part. I hope I explained it above. I'll just say it again, yes Greece were more-than-worthy winners, any competition winner is the same but I wouldn't class them as the best team in Europe. But if they won the next World Cup or say lost in the final to Brazil or Argentina, then it would make me think again. You don't need to retain a trophy to make it matter, after all that rarely happens in any sport.

I hope Portugal win tonight, I love Ronaldo as a player, dislike him as a person, but if he wins the Euros then in my eyes he is the best player in the world as you have to do it for your country as well. George Best is an exception as he never had the opportunity to.

[benhben]

European and world football needs a Portugal victory to bring an end to the dominance of Spain's anti-football which with Barcelona has made the game at the top level so dull and boring to watch over the past few years. I like Portugal's direct attacking style and in Christian Ronaldo they have the tournament and Europe's outstanding footballer.

Come on Portugal.

Spain play Anti-football?

Have you watched England or Chelsea recently?

[DE.]

I considering Spain very boring but they're definitely not anti-football, not at all. If anything they sacrifice entertainment to play football in its purest form.

[MarkBRFC71]

I hope Portugal win tonight, I love Ronaldo as a player, dislike him as a person, but if he wins the Euros then in my eyes he is the best player in the world as you have to do it for your country as well.

If you're going to use that criteria then there's probably a better argument for Iniesta or Xavi than Messi or Ronaldo?

[Tom]

For all that I cannot stand the preening ponce that is Ronaldo....... entrar em Portugal!!

I don't think I've ever seen a player come out with a different hairdo in the second half of a game until Ronaldo this tournament!