[Archived] Are English Players Over Coached

[thenodrog]

A friend of mine is a coach at PNE. I was asking him just why English players are unable to pass the ball, especially when they have to play their way out of trouble at the back when under pressure and what methods they (as coaches) use to try and improve this part of our game.

Barking up the wrong tree CLB. People always bemoan the poor passing but it's wrong to and maybe the reason for our national malaise. Individually English players can pass the ball as well as any other nation. Put a hat on a stick between 5 and 25 yards away and they will pass the ball within a yard of it 99 times out of a 100. What they struggle with and the term you should have used is why can't English teams retain possession. Passing to someone who is in space is simple but passing to someone who is closely marked makes retaining possession 50:50. The route our coaches need to major on is to get players to work OFF the ball. Players off the ball constantly moving into space is the real secret of the passing game.

A major part of the problem requires the average English supporter to look inwardly too. Not all passes can be forward, retaining possession frequently requires passes to be square or backward. There should be no problem whatsoever with that. Barca do it, other nations do it, Lpool were just about the only English team to perfect if (albeit 30 years ago under Shanks and Paisley) and recently Swansea have gained much praise for doing it. Unfortunately too many English supporters resort to booing and jeering players passing back to their teammates. No finer example of ignorant football supporters than those cupid stunts at the Wolves match 2 seasons ago. Until English supporters attempt to understand the rudiments of football we will always get what we deserve.

[Kelbo]

Barking up the wrong tree CLB. People always bemoan the poor passing but it's wrong to and maybe the reason for our national malaise. Individually English players can pass the ball as well as any other nation. Put a hat on a stick between 5 and 25 yards away and they will pass the ball within a yard of it 99 times out of a 100. What they struggle with and the term you should have used is why can't English teams retain possession. Passing to someone who is in space is simple but passing to someone who is closely marked makes retaining possession 50:50. The route our coaches need to major on is to get players to work OFF the ball. Players off the ball constantly moving into space is the real secret of the passing game.

Thats the Spanish and Barca ethos, movement off the ball, pressure and support, Rovers last year, their movement off the ball wasnt good, the player on the ball had very few options!!

[thenodrog]

Thats the Spanish and Barca ethos, movement off the ball, pressure and support, Rovers last year, their movement off the ball wasnt good, the player on the ball had very few options!!

Rovers every year you mean ..... except the seasons that featured Sherwood and Tugay. I remember them well ..... It's when we won stuff!

[Rover_Shaun]

It's when we won stuff!

2002

[Rovermatt]

It's not about the pie in the sky dream of teaching ball control and passing skills to infants and juniors, thats just oft repeated empty sound bites from wise old sages to the accompanyment of much nodding heads and positive noises. In reallity it's just silly silk purse pig's ear thinking. The entire issue is about turning adolescents with football skills, pace and all round ability into responsible and mature adults with a burning desire to achieve. I'm sure we can cos we used to do just a couple of generations ago.

How come nations in which kids who are taught how to play football from a young age are so much better than their counterparts in the British Isles? Kids should be allowed to play and develop their skills first. Tactics and maturation can wait until the teen years (as you rightly suggest). I don't believe footballers in this part of the world lack a will to win any more than the continentals. It's the coaching of football that is letting them down.

[thenodrog]

How come nations in which kids who are taught how to play football from a young age are so much better than their counterparts in the British Isles? Kids should be allowed to play and develop their skills first. Tactics and maturation can wait until the teen years (as you rightly suggest). I don't believe footballers in this part of the world lack a will to win any more than the continentals. It's the coaching of football that is letting them down.

I don't necessarily think they are. I see the difference being more in the national mentality than anything else. Many top nations player's seem more mature,more responsible and overall more professional. Look at our two genuine 'worldies' of the past 20 years Gazza and Rooney and compare their mentallity to ZZ, Kilinsmann, Gullit, Van Basten and Messi. Best was another who wasted his talents through flaws in his mentallity. Look too at the problems continually besetting the Dutch. All the skill and technique in the world, all the dreaming of Ajax stuff yet everyone of em will fall out in an empty room. Whatevers in their make up doesn't seem to be able to be overcome.

Don't know about you and I may be wrong but I get the feeling that when the Germans or Italians get an afternoon off they will do extra training etc before enjoying a nice plate of pasta and going to bed early with a top model whilst our lot will go to the races and swill champagne all afternoon with a pizza or curry takeaway before going to bed in the early hours with a top model whilst the dutch will relaksh with coffee a few sshpliffs dishcusshing left wing politicsh before going to bed with a top model and falling out with her.

[Rovermatt]

whilst the dutch will relaksh with coffee a few sshpliffs dishcusshing left wing politicsh before going to bed with a top model and falling out with her.

Undoubtedly. "What the f**k do you mean Ven Pershie/Ven der Veert/Ruubben/Snayder's a better player den me?! Get de f**k out beetch."

[MarkBRFC71]

Barking up the wrong tree CLB. People always bemoan the poor passing but it's wrong to and maybe the reason for our national malaise. Individually English players can pass the ball as well as any other nation. Put a hat on a stick between 5 and 25 yards away and they will pass the ball within a yard of it 99 times out of a 100. What they struggle with and the term you should have used is why can't English teams retain possession. Passing to someone who is in space is simple but passing to someone who is closely marked makes retaining possession 50:50. The route our coaches need to major on is to get players to work OFF the ball. Players off the ball constantly moving into space is the real secret of the passing game.

A major part of the problem requires the average English supporter to look inwardly too. Not all passes can be forward, retaining possession frequently requires passes to be square or backward. There should be no problem whatsoever with that. Barca do it, other nations do it, Lpool were just about the only English team to perfect if (albeit 30 years ago under Shanks and Paisley) and recently Swansea have gained much praise for doing it. Unfortunately too many English supporters resort to booing and jeering players passing back to their teammates. No finer example of ignorant football supporters than those cupid stunts at the Wolves match 2 seasons ago. Until English supporters attempt to understand the rudiments of football we will always get what we deserve.

It's also about the receiver's ability to bring the ball under control and move it on quickly which our players seem to struggle with.

The likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Pirlo, Sneijder, Messi know before they've received the ball where the closest opposition players are, how to position themselves to receive and crucially shield the ball, where the space is should they need to turn, and where their teammates are for the next pass - our players take 2 touches to bring it under control, then they have to look up for someone then try the pass. It's all about individual technique and we're miles behind.

[onlyonejackwalker]

It's also about the receiver's ability to bring the ball under control and move it on quickly which our players seem to struggle with.

The likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Pirlo, Sneijder, Messi know before they've received the ball where the closest opposition players are, how to position themselves to receive and crucially shield the ball, where the space is should they need to turn, and where their teammates are for the next pass - our players take 2 touches to bring it under control, then they have to look up for someone then try the pass. It's all about individual technique and we're miles behind.

Nail on the head and absolutely correct. The key is a players ability to kill the ball on a sixpence, with either foot, and having an accurate mental picture of the current state of play whilst doing it.

To argue it is anything other than a lack of technical ability is incorrect. We established this years ago. Too many of our players are average at best, criminally cannot use both feet and sadly cannot pass and control the ball with the highest skill when required under the severest pressure.

Ask yourself why an ageing Tuguy often had so much time on the ball? First touch, mental awareness and vision. The first can be taught and practised, which in turn facilitates and buys time and allows development of the other skills required.

Our players are as heavy, tall, fast, fit and committed as all other nations. Technically we are miles behind however, irrespective of how much interest there is in England and how much money we throw at it. Radical overview and changes required at the lowest / youngest levels of the game and huge investment required in the knowledge and ability of qualified junior coaches to stand any chance of improving at all. Foreigners laugh at our ball skills and lack of world class talent. They never criticise our desire, will to win or work ethic.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Individually English players can pass the ball as well as any other nation. Put a hat on a stick between 5 and 25 yards away and they will pass the ball within a yard of it 99 times out of a 100. YEAH, RIGHT

What they struggle with and the term you should have used STILL TELLING FOLK WHAT TO DO I SEE

is why can't English teams retain possession. THEY CAN'T RETAIN POSSESSION BECAUSE WHEN UNDER PRESSURE THEY OFTEN REVERT TO A BACK PASS TO THE KEEPER .WHO THEN HOOFS IT UPFIELD AND WE LOSE THE BALL. IF WE'RE IN OUR OPPONENTS' HALF AND PRESSED, WE JUST PANIC, TRY TO PASS TOO QUICKLY AND SIMPLY LOSE THE BALL. YOU'RE CORRECT ON THE PASS AND MOVE BIT, BUT THAT SHOULD BE A LOGICAL CONSEQUENCE OF NOT BEING ABLE TO FIND A TEAM MATE IN THE FIRST PLACE, EVEN TO THE ENGLISH.

WE'RE ACTUALY IN AGREEMENT, MORE OR LESS, BUT YOU'RE STILL TRYING TO TURN IT INTO AN ARGUMENT.

AND NO, I'M NOT SHOUTING!

[jim mk2]

The pace of the English domestic game is so fast players play 2-touch football most of the time in training because if they have more touches they are usually caught in possession. The result in international football is they do not have a good feel for the ball and thus constantly give possession away. Fans love the pace and fury of the Premier League and there are some exceptional players (usually foreign) who can retain possession but generally our league is not good preparation for international football.

[RoyRover]

To do that is not an issue about pace, skill etc it's an issue about attitude. imo our players in the main seem far too immature, they act like adolescents. Maybe it's the press building them up to Little Tin God status only to knock them down when they get a chance, maybe it's the fault of our (soft) education system which appears to downgrade hunger, ambition, ruthlessness, pride and competition in kids, maybe it's our society which accepts under achievement so readily these days and turns a blind eye to the mindless yob booze culture we all see and accept within these shores far too often.

More likely it's a combination. Just an opinion but I've opined already that the Germans look fit whilst half our lot look fat. Does Lam or Gomes or Schweinsteiger and their mates need SAF or equivalent breathing down his necks 24/7 to stay fit and in condition for a month like Rooney (and Gazza before him) does? I seriously doubt it. Our lot call themselves professional but in reallity compared to others they act like amateurs...... maybe it's cos we've treat them as errant schoolboys instead of mature men all their lives. Is it my imagination but when top international players are interviewed on TV most sound intelligent, composed, thoughful and mature whilst our top players (and successive England Captains for decades) shuffle their feet, look away from the interviewer, scratch their heads say um and y'know every other word, miss out the letter 'T' from all sorts of words and replace 'th' with 'f'.

It's not about the pie in the sky dream of teaching ball control and passing skills to infants and juniors... The entire issue is about turning adolescents with football skills, pace and all round ability into responsible and mature adults with a burning desire to achieve. I'm sure we can cos we used to do just a couple of generations ago.

It's not a 'pie in the sky' dream, because that's what they do and it works and it's what kids in the UK and Ireland don't do which is why they have fallen behind. While kids in Spain, France, Holland, Germany and the techincally superb eastern European countries are being taught about ball control, possession and passing, ours are being taught to lump it up the field, chase after it and win at all costs. It's not pie in the sky, because you can see the Germans, Italians, French and Spanish have multiple titles to show for their efforts.

I totally agree with you about the maturity issue. The players from these countries seem so much tuned into the world, how to behave, how to talk and conduct themselves. There is a far greater willingness for players from the rest of Europe to move abroad, play at a higher level or in different leagues, experience new cultures and develop as a footballer and earn more money. No doubt that many players in England see the Premiership as the best league in the world, with all the riches they could want and this is where they all aspire to play, so why would they want to go and play in the Bundesliga or Ligue 1? I also think that there is a reluctance on their part to make a step into the unknown, to learn a new language and not be run around after like they presently are. And this harks back to the point you make about maturity.

[thenodrog]

....... The route our coaches need to major on is to get players to work OFF the ball.

The likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Pirlo, Sneijder, Messi know before they've received the ball where the closest opposition players are, how to position themselves to receive and crucially shield the ball, where the space is should they need to turn, and where their teammates are for the next pass - our players take 2 touches to bring it under control, then they have to look up for someone then try the pass. It's all about individual technique and we're miles behind.

Same thing surely Mark?

[Stuart]

Just picked up my lad from school. There were a group of lads playing football in the school yard (in fact, in a caged area created for playing sports), playing a small match. Quite impressed with them.

It wasn't long before the head teacher was running over shouting at them to stop playing, and reminding them that no-one is allowed to play in there before or after school. I assume it is because they are unsupervised.

"Health and safety" madness. Forget our national football team, it's crippling our nation.

[Amo]

You only have to watch shows like Football's Next Star, where they'd totally overlook some hopefuls despite their natural talent because they happen to be an inch too short. Players like Iniesta, Xavi, Messi et al. would lose 9/10 physical battles against more robust opposition, which is why they have to rely on their footballing brains, using their first touch and technique to either bamboozle them or draw a foul. It's this sort of mentality that is completely lost at grass roots level and shows up our national team time and time again. It's not going to be fixed overnight (if at all) and in the meantime the England side will continue to live off the back of Sky's Premier League gravy train - convincing the braindead masses that Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard & the rest of England's creme de la Prem are mistakenly "world-class".

[cn174]

Just picked up my lad from school. There were a group of lads playing football in the school yard (in fact, in a caged area created for playing sports), playing a small match. Quite impressed with them.

It wasn't long before the head teacher was running over shouting at them to stop playing, and reminding them that no-one is allowed to play in there before or after school. I assume it is because they are unsupervised.

"Health and safety" madness. Forget our national football team, it's crippling our nation.

Funny you should say that, whilst in Poland we saw 'amazing' things which highlighted just how ingrained all the H&S etc. is in England and how basically fun is not allowed!

In all of the cities we saw countless groups of school kids on outings, just wandering through cities in lines of two, usually only a teacher at the front and one at the back. In Poznan city square, at this point mobbed with footy fans, one group stopped for their lunch. Some of the lads got out a footy and just started having a kick around. Random Irish and Czech fans started joining in, the teachers were taking photos of the kids with the footy fans and a good time was had by everyone.

On our last day we were chilling in a park in Krakow and another group of kids appeared and their teachers let them off to go and climb trees!!!!! whilst they had a sit down. My friend and I looked at each other quite surprised and said that that would never ever happen in England, but really it is a quite normal thing to happen but just not here anymore.

[thenodrog]

Funny you should say that, whilst in Poland we saw 'amazing' things which highlighted just how ingrained all the H&S etc. is in England and how basically fun is not allowed!

In all of the cities we saw countless groups of school kids on outings, just wandering through cities in lines of two, usually only a teacher at the front and one at the back. In Poznan city square, at this point mobbed with footy fans, one group stopped for their lunch. Some of the lads got out a footy and just started having a kick around. Random Irish and Czech fans started joining in, the teachers were taking photos of the kids with the footy fans and a good time was had by everyone.

On our last day we were chilling in a park in Krakow and another group of kids appeared and their teachers let them off to go and climb trees!!!!! whilst they had a sit down. My friend and I looked at each other quite surprised and said that that would never ever happen in England, but really it is a quite normal thing to happen but just not here anymore.

Careful clur by reminiscing about the good old days and dareing to suggest that our society is fatally flawed you are showing signs of ageing and take it from me the adolescents on here with their BO, excess body fat and acne will be queuing up to put the boot in.

[patrickvalery]

Careful clur by reminiscing about the good old days and dareing to suggest that our society is fatally flawed you are showing signs of ageing and take it from me the adolescents on here with their BO, excess body fat and acne will be queuing up to put the boot espadrille in.

Corrected it for you Theno

[JAL]

In my opinion, like with most other things in life, if you've got the raw talent then you can be disciplined later. Disciplining kids in a talent they haven't yet got is a silly way to go.

I have to agree with the topic title. Too much "I know what's best for you" training going on and not enough expression and enjoyment of it at a young age. I'll repeat myself, Hughesy. Brazil.

Love this thread just hope it runs and runs. Totally agree with your comments along with all the others, think the likes of Hughesy as a coach have a massively hard task on their hands especially if they try to standardise every kid when every kid is or can be very different from one another in playing football.

[Kelbo]

I have been away over the weekend and saw a reply on this thread saying, surely young players arent released from league clubs due to their size and Physique,

In Saturdays Daily Star, there was an article stating a player (unamed) released from a league club on that basis and that it is happening throughout the English game as they look for pace, power and size, this particular player was told, why not try a foreign club!!

I am enjoying reading peoples thoughts on this, maybe Majiball could reply on this particular post with a view from a proffessional club, I have only worked with semi pro players so I only get told by the lads the reason for their release from Pro clubs, would be interested to know a view from inside the pro game!

[Mattyblue]

Read a Tweet this morning saying Mickey Quinn on Talksport was stating that 'English players are techically every bit as good as the Spanish'.

[thenodrog]

Read a Tweet this morning saying Mickey Quinn on Talksport was stating that 'English players are techically every bit as good as the Spanish'.

In fairness to Quinn until this crop of Spaniards came together Spain had won sweet FA in it's entire history..... bout the same as Scotland in fact. As I've stated before their natural 'game' has only come to the fore now that sports turf is so good that pitches are as good at the end of the season as at the beginning and even more importantly now that just about all physical contact is penalised.

Like Barca the Spanish players don't lose the ball very often but when they do they automatically go to ground with a scream of mock anguish and some wet behind the ears referee blows his whsitle and gives possession back to them. They have seen the future and adapted their game before anybody else. If Del Bosque had written the rules he could not have done a better job for his country.

Unfortunately they will spawn a lot of imitators.

[MarkBRFC71]

In fairness to Quinn until this crop of Spaniards came together Spain had won sweet FA in it's entire history..... bout the same as Scotland in fact. As I've stated before their natural 'game' has only come to the fore now that sports turf is so good that pitches are as good at the end of the season as at the beginning and even more importantly now that just about all physical contact is penalised.

Like Barca the Spanish players don't lose the ball very often but when they do they automatically go to ground with a scream of mock anguish and some wet behind the ears referee blows his whsitle and gives possession back to them. They have seen the future and adapted their game before anybody else. If Del Bosque had written the rules he could not have done a better job for his country.

Unfortunately they will spawn a lot of imitators.

Their game is as much about pressing, harrying and winning the ball back as high up the pitch as possible as it is about retaining possession. They don't go to ground any more than players from any other nations. Every player dives these days; the Italians, Germans, Brazilians, Argies, and yes us, the English, are every bit as proficient at falling over at the merest touch.

The reason Spain are the World and double Euro champions is because they have the best group of players with the highest level of technical ability, a fantastic work ethic, an unparalleled coaching network at grass-roots level, and a clear method of playing replicated exactly at their most successful club (from which 90% of their first team come from).

[Salgado Is A Hero]

In fairness to Quinn until this crop of Spaniards came together Spain had won sweet FA in it's entire history..... bout the same as Scotland in fact. As I've stated before their natural 'game' has only come to the fore now that sports turf is so good that pitches are as good at the end of the season as at the beginning and even more importantly now that just about all physical contact is penalised.

Like Barca the Spanish players don't lose the ball very often but when they do they automatically go to ground with a scream of mock anguish and some wet behind the ears referee blows his whsitle and gives possession back to them. They have seen the future and adapted their game before anybody else. If Del Bosque had written the rules he could not have done a better job for his country.

Unfortunately they will spawn a lot of imitators.

Spain won the 1964 European Championships.....are you seriously suggesting that the Spanish pioneered play-acting? Have you never watched an Italian or Argentinian side? Busquets and Pedro are despicable players for how often they do it but the rest aren't much worse than hundreds of others.

If somebody asked me who some of the worst divers in the Premier League were, I'd say Gerrard, Ashley Young, Andy Johnson, Agbonlahor and Rooney. What do those players have in common? Any argument based on it being because of the foreign players bringing it to Britain holds no weight as it doesn't excuse it in the slightest and I've heard people mentioning British players who used to dive years and years ago.

Even if the Spanish were the only side to do it, however ridiculous that sounds, then they are still unbelievably good with the ball and can sometimes tear defences apart at will......Xavi and Iniesta are without question the two best midfielders in the world and their team would still be successful if the game was much more physical as every other nation would have the same disadvantage.

[Kelbo]

Their game is as much about pressing, harrying and winning the ball back as high up the pitch as possible as it is about retaining possession. They don't go to ground any more than players from any other nations. Every player dives these days; the Italians, Germans, Brazilians, Argies, and yes us, the English, are every bit as proficient at falling over at the merest touch.

The reason Spain are the World and double Euro champions is because they have the best group of players with the highest level of technical ability, a fantastic work ethic, an unparalleled coaching network at grass-roots level, and a clear method of playing replicated exactly at their most successful club (from which 90% of their first team come from).

Bingo!