[Archived] Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust

[Ozz]

June 16th this year saw the latest and really the first proper meeting of the Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust `Steering Group`.

The `Trust` is a non aggressive, non-protest organisation, the likes of which can be found at many football and now rugby clubs throught the UK and Europe. Advised and backed by Supporters Direct [SD Website here] it has a long term goal of fan representation at board level for Rovers. We are currently in the process of finalising an official launch, in August, when fans can learn more and hopefully become members.

The purpose of this post/thread is to begin the process of making supporters aware of this organisation, and also to post a link to the minutes to allow anyone/everyone who is interested to see what progress is being made.

Link To Minutes PDF Here.

[Stuart]

So this is another group...?

[PAFELL]

So this is another group...?

This has been in the process for awhile.

[Paul]

So this is another group...?

No it's an organisation which has been working through the long drawn out process required to form an officially recognised Supporters Community Trust. The process began in, I think, May 2010, pre-Venkys, held its first public meeting at Blakeys to obtain a mandate from the attendees to form a Trust and has been steadily working away ever since

After the initial public meeting two further public meetings are required a Launch Party followed, within six months, by democratic elections at a full AGM.

[Ozz]

Is the link to the minutes working ok for everyone?

[den]

Yes Ozz.

[Baz]

Ozz, since the trust website isn't up and running yet, how about putting the mission statement on here. A good starter for discussions...

[mark1875]

If i am asked to pay £10 per year, my first question is where does it go? my second question is, as a supporters group does this mean that for £30, all the thousand plus members of the BRFC Action Group will be 'represented' for a combined cost of £30 per season?

[Ozz]

Very good question. The money goes into a bank account, and are used to pay for the running costs of the company. The trust is essentially a not-for-profit company (an Industrial and Provident Society). To be able to have a say in the decision making you need to buy a share. We have made the share price £10 each-as recommended by Supporters Direct. This is regarded by them as affordable so as to appeal to as many people as possible, thus encouraging the widest possible membership.

As for the second question, the £30 membership paid by a group still means one vote on decision making. So a supporters group would have to make a decision based on the opinions of the thousand plus members, then vote accordingly. It would be upto the group to make sure that they decide which way they would vote, say in electing a board member or on a question at an AGM, whilst taking into account the differing opinions contained within that group.

[Ozz]

Ozz, since the trust website isn't up and running yet, how about putting the mission statement on here. A good starter for discussions...

Will do Baz-tomorrow.

[mark1875]

Very good question. The money goes into a bank account, and are used to pay for the running costs of the company. The trust is essentially a not-for-profit company (an Industrial and Provident Society). To be able to have a say in the decision making you need to buy a share. We have made the share price £10 each-as recommended by Supporters Direct. This is regarded by them as affordable so as to appeal to as many people as possible, thus encouraging the widest possible membership.

As for the second question, the £30 membership paid by a group still means one vote on decision making. So a supporters group would have to make a decision based on the opinions of the thousand plus members, then vote accordingly. It would be upto the group to make sure that they decide which way they would vote, say in electing a board member or on a question at an AGM, whilst taking into account the differing opinions contained within that group.

So for this £10, what are the major running costs, presuming you have 2,000 members next year, what will the £20,000 per year spend be made up of?

For £10 what do i get? a say in what decision making? what do i get to vote on? how do i get to vote on electing a board member, have you been given the guarantee that under this entity we will have this power? if not, what makes people think this entity has a define right to be electing board members?

What will paying £10 per season guarantee me, that i do not already have?

[Baz]

Mark, Id suggest you have a look at some of the other trusts around. The Newcastle one is pretty good.http://www.nust.org.uk/

This is their mission statement:

The Newcastle United Supporters Trust (NUST) seeks to benefit our football club and its supporters by channeling the passion of its loyal supporters into a forward-thinking non-profit organisation that is a legally constituted, democratic, not-for-profit Supporters Trust.

The main aim of the Newcastle United Supporters Trust is to work with supporters to raise sufficient funds to buy a stake in the club.

The Trust will act responsibly as a guardian of the future of Newcastle United. If the Trust believes that the Club is being run incompetently and not in the interests of the supporters the Trust will not be afraid to criticise. The Trust however, will not exist just to be critical; the Trust will also be about helping the club, tapping into the skills and expertise of its members and offering solutions.

The Trust is ran by its members. Every member is eligible to stand for election and to vote for candidates for the NUST board which will be accountable to all NUST members. The Trust is legally registered and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. Any money raised or shares bought will belong to all members equally. The trust produces independently audited annual accounts and provides regular updates to members through meetings, newsletters, emails and website.

In answer to why they charge:

"The reasons we charge for membership are as follows :

1. The rules of an Industrial & Provident Society means that to be a full member you have to own a fully paid up share of the Trust - these are £1 shares and each member is assigned one after they sign up.

2. Each member receives a membership pack when they sign up - this includes a certificate and membership card - this plus the postage to send them out obviously cost money.

3. We need running costs eg postage for letters / website hosting fees / Domain name fees / PO Box fees / Bulk email package fees / campaign funds etc.

All work carried out by the committee is free and no committee member is paid anything for their voluntary work"

[only2garners]

So for this £10, what are the major running costs, presuming you have 2,000 members next year, what will the £20,000 per year spend be made up of?

For £10 what do i get? a say in what decision making? what do i get to vote on? how do i get to vote on electing a board member, have you been given the guarantee that under this entity we will have this power? if not, what makes people think this entity has a define right to be electing board members?

What will paying £10 per season guarantee me, that i do not already have?

Mark,

There will be elections for Board members in about 6 months when we will have hopefully built up enough membership to allow us a meaningful election process. As Ozz says, at the time of the election every paid up member will have one vote. Groups can sign up as well but will only have one vote per group, so it is really a way of a group showing solidarity to the Trust. Of course there is nothing stopping all the individual members of any affiliated group also taking out individual membership.

As Baz has pointed out in referencing the Newcastle Trust, the membership money will be used to run the Trust. As with them, the current committe are just there to get the Trust up and running and are doing all their work on a voluntary basis.

And I think we would be over the moon if we had 2,000 members next year.

[mark1875]

Mark, Id suggest you have a look at some of the other trusts around. The Newcastle one is pretty good.http://www.nust.org.uk/

This is their mission statement:

The Newcastle United Supporters Trust (NUST) seeks to benefit our football club and its supporters by channeling the passion of its loyal supporters into a forward-thinking non-profit organisation that is a legally constituted, democratic, not-for-profit Supporters Trust.

The main aim of the Newcastle United Supporters Trust is to work with supporters to raise sufficient funds to buy a stake in the club.

The Trust will act responsibly as a guardian of the future of Newcastle United. If the Trust believes that the Club is being run incompetently and not in the interests of the supporters the Trust will not be afraid to criticise. The Trust however, will not exist just to be critical; the Trust will also be about helping the club, tapping into the skills and expertise of its members and offering solutions.

The Trust is ran by its members. Every member is eligible to stand for election and to vote for candidates for the NUST board which will be accountable to all NUST members. The Trust is legally registered and regulated by the Financial Services Authority. Any money raised or shares bought will belong to all members equally. The trust produces independently audited annual accounts and provides regular updates to members through meetings, newsletters, emails and website.

In answer to why they charge:

"The reasons we charge for membership are as follows :

1. The rules of an Industrial & Provident Society means that to be a full member you have to own a fully paid up share of the Trust - these are £1 shares and each member is assigned one after they sign up.

2. Each member receives a membership pack when they sign up - this includes a certificate and membership card - this plus the postage to send them out obviously cost money.

3. We need running costs eg postage for letters / website hosting fees / Domain name fees / PO Box fees / Bulk email package fees / campaign funds etc.

All work carried out by the committee is free and no committee member is paid anything for their voluntary work"

So 2000 supporters (or else there seems no point if we can't even get 10% of the match-attending supporter to join), sign up at £10 each, then £20,000 will be spent primarily on certificates, membership cards, stamps, website fees, p.o box fees, emails and campaign funds? now with all due respect, as a committee member of the BRFC Action Group i am fully aware of the cost of all this and it certainly will not come anywhere near £20,0000, in fact it will fall a hell of a long way short of that. We have funded the vast majority of the above over 9 months without charging anyone a single penny, so again i will ask what will the bulk of the money be spent on, not a small percentage of it? I am genuinely interested in what supporters money will be spent on, before they are asked to part with it.

In addition to this, i have now read the NUFC link you gave, however i still would like to question - how will the supporters trust channel our passion, to seek to benefit our BRFC and its supporters? specifically i mean? surely over the last 2 years during its inception we can now have an explanation which is a little more explanatory than this?

To raise funds to buy the club? So the Blackburn Rovers Supporters Trust is going to rival the Blackburn Rovers Supporters Investment Trust in raising funds for supporters to buy the club? or is this where the NUFC one differs from ours? which is why i am asking for more details.

The trust will act as a guardian to the club? this i do take issue with because i believe they will need to have more members than they are aiming for to be big enough to speak for everyone, also regarding being critical whilst the club is being run incompetently, i must have slept through them doing this, this cost nothing?? however, they are personal issues and i will leave them out of this.

The rest i suppose is standard information which has to be added legally.

So again i will ask what will my £10 give me that i do not already get because, even if the trust is a direct copy of the NUST, which i doubt it is, then the answers still need to be more specific, what can i expect from my £10 and what will the bulk of the money charged be spent on, other groups run the same costs without the £10 charge, so there must be something extra i am paying for, what is this?

Mark,

There will be elections for Board members in about 6 months when we will have hopefully built up enough membership to allow us a meaningful election process. As Ozz says, at the time of the election every paid up member will have one vote. Groups can sign up as well but will only have one vote per group, so it is really a way of a group showing solidarity to the Trust. Of course there is nothing stopping all the individual members of any affiliated group also taking out individual membership.

As Baz has pointed out in referencing the Newcastle Trust, the membership money will be used to run the Trust. As with them, the current committe are just there to get the Trust up and running and are doing all their work on a voluntary basis.

And I think we would be over the moon if we had 2,000 members next year.

So if all of the members of a group decide to sign up to the trust what are they getting from the trust that they do not get from their original group, in particular if their original group has more members than the trust?

Money to run the trust? as above where does the bulk of it go, we are talking a lot of money being taken in compared to the cost of running a small group, what specifically will it be used for? as basic costs are not that high.

I just think it is fair to explain to supporters why they are paying to be a supporter, what they get for it and where their personal cash is going because still now, many moons after the birth of this idea it is still not very clear, the sums need to be clearer the benefits need to be clearer and a bit more transparency is needed when you are charging people for something which they can receive elsewhere for free.

[mark1875]

Couple more questions i have got, after sleeping on this... since the supporters trust are asking groups to join this venture and pay £30 annually to unite under this one big umbrella...

I know that for some unknown reason, the faces involved in the supporters trust keep changing, however regarding other groups who, they are asking to "show solidarity with the trust" how many current committee members of the trust have shown an interest in engaging with these groups? more specifically

1) How many current committee members have pledged to the BRSIT initiative?

2) How many current committee members attended last weeks BRFC Action Group open floor meeting?

As these two entities, over the recent troubled months have been the most pro-active voice for the supporters and have both liaised regularly with supporters it would be interesting to see what volume of interest, the supporters trust have shown in these, if the answer to either question is little/none, i must ask the question, why?

[glen9mullan]

I'm also interested to see how this works, especially as BRSIT seem to have put together a professional team together regarding at least a future stake in the club should the opportunity arise. They have been going just a few months and seem to moving at the rate of knots on zero budget. I also believe it to be true that Wayne Wild was very much the driving force in getting the concept of the BRST off the ground 2 years ago, but it has just stagnated since, with many comings and goings in terms of people behind getting it off the ground

I'm aware supporters direct will only deal with one entity, and this is a stumbling block for BRSIT, but with all the people they have on board surely it would be a better idea to let them now deal with supporters direct and lead the way regarding any future supporter ownership/trust.

I still can't fathom what the BRST aims are, I have asked this question so many times, but dont ever get a straight answer. I was told months ago by Duncan that he felt that rovers would only go one way when Venkys bought the club, and he wanted them gone and the trust to be independent and not work along side Venkys. So on tjhat questions

1. If you dont want to work with Venkys, how can you look to get stake in the club?

2. Again if you want someone on the board, question 1 needs answering?

Having attended the BRSIT Meeting at King Georges hall, it was interesting that at the end when Wayne Wild asked the room who would still not pledge, there was only one hand raised and it was from a BRST prominent committee member

Questions

1. If you dont support a supporter takeover/share of a takeover, how can you promote a supporters trust which is the same thing?

2. How can you work with BRSIT if you do not support it?

3. I'm lead to believe that these £10 may be used to pledge towards BRST, But if thats the case how could both entities exist? ( I ask this because as a group with many branches we are exploring this option of buying shares in BRSIT If it comes to fruitition for each of our branches worldwide)

We have a fans forum and a number if independant supporter groups, the clubs communication is up in the air at present, although a couple of the groups are in dialogue with the club, amongst other things. How many times as an entity have the BRST spoke with anyone at Ewood? Having asked at Ewood at number of times, they say never under that branding, Although some of the committee are Fans Forum members. Surely one of the first steps in the last 2 years would of been to open some sort of dialogue with the very club you want to get a share in/board member?

I will be interested to see what these membership fee's are to be used for, and what the supporters trust aim is both short term and long term. I know you say you want 500 members by the new year, but sadly at this stage i feel if i paid £10 i would be paying to sign up to just a fancy name. As I cannot see any direction or planned objectives. As all at this stage BRST is, is exactly that just a name, I'd hoped for so much more :-(

[Mattyblue]

Group Wars part 3.

[mark1875]

Group Wars part 3.

No war from me, i am just seeking answers for the supporters who elected me to do so, if they are being asked to part with money they are fully entitled to know what it is going to be used for and how it will benefit them

[glen9mullan]

Group Wars part 3.

Group Wars part 3.

Or me, Genuine questions, which just require some clarification, if its rovers news its of interest to me

[Mattyblue]

Aye ok, let's see how this thread develops...

[PAFELL]

Couple more questions i have got, after sleeping on this... since the supporters trust are asking groups to join this venture and pay £30 annually to unite under this one big umbrella...

I know that for some unknown reason, the faces involved in the supporters trust keep changing, however regarding other groups who, they are asking to "show solidarity with the trust" how many current committee members of the trust have shown an interest in engaging with these groups? more specifically

1) How many current committee members have pledged to the BRSIT initiative?

2) How many current committee members attended last weeks BRFC Action Group open floor meeting?

As these two entities, over the recent troubled months have been the most pro-active voice for the supporters and have both liaised regularly with supporters it would be interesting to see what volume of interest, the supporters trust have shown in these, if the answer to either question is little/none, i must ask the question, why?

It would not surprise me if there were many supporters - commitee members of various groups or not - who have not pledged and have no intention of pledging to BRSIT or joined the action group. Which has to be their choice. This may be another choice, that can be accepted or rejected. Which has to be the same for brsit, action group or BRST. It has to be down to the individual supporter to chose for themselves and not for members of any group to decide for the individual.

[mark1875]

It would not surprise me if there were many supporters - commitee members of various groups or not - who have not pledged and have no intention of pledging to BRSIT or joined the action group. Which has to be their choice. This may be another choice, that can be accepted or rejected. Which has to be the same for brsit, action group or BRST. It has to be down to the individual supporter to chose for themselves and not for members of any group to decide for the individual.

I agree, however if they are asking other groups to pay £30 in order to "show solidarity to the trust", then surely they should have made some sort of attempt to reach out to these groups and it's members, over the lengthy time they have been waiting? researching supporters opinions is key. If they are looking to get large supporter groups under their umbrella, failing to engage with them is helping each individuals choice much easier.

As a side note, as someone who rejected the other two groups you mentioned, what are your thoughts on this one?

[PAFELL]

I agree, however if they are asking other groups to pay £30 in order to "show solidarity to the trust", then surely they should have made some sort of attempt to reach out to these groups and it's members, over the lengthy time they have been waiting? researching supporters opinions is key. If they are looking to get large supporter groups under their umbrella, failing to engage with them is helping each individuals choice much easier.

Maybe they had to wait for all the legal stuff to be sorted first, in case they were unable to launch. It is ok having an idea to have a trust, but implimenting it is another thing. Knowledge etc also plays a part, which is dependant on who is in a particular group.

I don't think they are asking for other groups to pay £30 or even join. (I maybe wrong on that) I thought that was just in answer to the question you asked. I do not see why each group could not be individual / seperate and run as they chose to do so. The common aim being the wellfare of BRFC and its supporters.

As much as I hate venkys and Kean for what they have done to the club. One thing that is evident and which has done us all a favour, is supporters coming out in support for the club, caring for the club, willing to fight for the club and not just match attending like sheep.

As mentioned on other threads there used to be various rovers supporters clubs throughout the area. sadly these died. so in some way they have been revived via the various recent groups, BRSIT, Brfc action group, BRST as well as to a certain extent this website brfcs - which is good for supporters who do not live in the area. This can only be a good thing. Each group may not agree on how other groups operate, agendas etc - so be it. But it is still bringing supporters together in ONE COMMON GOAL, which is Blackburn Rovers FC. Other clubs have had supporters groups for quite awhile - we have them now due to venkys stupidity. If they had not come along - many of these groups would not exsit. Though this site was going long before they arrived. Though I believe BRST was also being planned as well.

[mark1875]

Maybe they had to wait for all the legal stuff to be sorted first, in case they were unable to launch. It is ok having an idea to have a trust, but implimenting it is another thing. Knowledge etc also plays a part, which is dependant on who is in a particular group.

I don't think they are asking for other groups to pay £30 or even join. (I maybe wrong on that) I thought that was just in answer to the question you asked. I do not see why each group could not be individual / seperate and run as they chose to do so. The common aim being the wellfare of BRFC and its supporters.

As much as I hate venkys and Kean for what they have done to the club. One thing that is evident and which has done us all a favour, is supporters coming out in support for the club, caring for the club, willing to fight for the club and not just match attending like sheep.

As mentioned on other threads there used to be various rovers supporters clubs throughout the area. sadly these died. so in some way they have been revived via the various recent groups, BRSIT, Brfc action group, BRST as well as to a certain extent this website brfcs - which is good for supporters who do not live in the area. This can only be a good thing. Each group may not agree on how other groups operate, agendas etc - so be it. But it is still bringing supporters together in ONE COMMON GOAL, which is Blackburn Rovers FC. Other clubs have had supporters groups for quite awhile - we have them now due to venkys stupidity. If they had not come along - many of these groups would not exsit. Though this site was going long before they arrived. Though I believe BRST was also being planned as well.

According to their minutes and their answers they are? it is £30 for a supporters group to join, isn't it?

You are correct, supporters groups should be allowed to exist as everyone has different beliefs on which is the best way for them as an individual, however when a 'trust' comes along and starts asking supporters to pay individually to join, then asks groups collectively to pay to join too, then questions will be asked, especially when they are charging what other groups don't. They need to answer what this excess income will be spent on, there must be then, operating costs other groups do not have surely? What do we get for our money that we are not already getting for free? and why are some supporters completely ignored and exempt from this supporter umbrella?

My original issue you quoted, waiting for the legal stuff? these minutes were drafted up before the BRFC Action Groups open floor meeting, as these meetings where to openly discuss some key meetings the supporters have been involved in over the last month, would this not be of interest to the trust? of course it would, Wayne Wild from BRSIT managed to come along, both Ste and Glenn came along, so i will ask again who from the Supporters Trust came along, if hardly or none, then why is this? anything concerning Blackburn Rovers, particularly on the scale of the meetings should surely interest them?

[PAFELL]

According to their minutes and their answers they are? it is £30 for a supporters group to join, isn't it?

You are correct, supporters groups should be allowed to exist as everyone has different beliefs on which is the best way for them as an individual, however when a 'trust' comes along and starts asking supporters to pay individually to join, then asks groups collectively to pay to join too, then questions will be asked, especially when they are charging what other groups don't. They need to answer what this excess income will be spent on, there must be then, operating costs other groups do not have surely? What do we get for our money that we are not already getting for free? and why are some supporters completely ignored and exempt from this supporter umbrella?

My original issue you quoted, waiting for the legal stuff? these minutes were drafted up before the BRFC Action Groups open floor meeting, as these meetings where to openly discuss some key meetings the supporters have been involved in over the last month, would this not be of interest to the trust? of course it would, Wayne Wild from BRSIT managed to come along, both Ste and Glenn came along, so i will ask again who from the Supporters Trust came along, if hardly or none, then why is this? anything concerning Blackburn Rovers, particularly on the scale of the meetings should surely interest them?

Most of those questions you will have to ask from the individuals concerned - especially why they did or did not attend various meetings of other groups. Or why certian people cannot join the trust. I also think an individual should only be a member of ONE group (putting this site aside, as this is more of a community group). Attendence of other groups meetings should be 'optional', down to individuals choice. But it is also a time issue. Folk have jobs, family life/ commitments / hobbies etc, social life, travel costs etc (plus many other reasons) and then to add all sorts of meetings on their 'things to do lists' maybe to much for some.

Just went back and read the minutes that are linked on here - if there are other minutes, I have not seen them. But from what I have read I can only see that the desire is to work 'along side' each other (BRST & BRSIT) in each individuals way - not 'join' each group. I think a supporter should chose for themselves which group to be a member of, BRSIT, Action group or BRST - but still share and be interested in what each group is doing - for the same common goal.