[Archived] 'Biggest clubs' in the Championship?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I mainly go off attendances in the big clubs debate. Attendances pretty much decide the match and commercial revenue streams and as everyone gets a similar amount in TV money, they are usually the deciding factors. Excellent chairmen/managers/players and rich owners can allow some clubs (like Rovers) to buck the trend, but long-term a big club is one with a big catchment area and high attendances. So the big clubs in the Championship would be:

1. Leeds

2. Derby

3. Wolves

4. Birmingham

5. Cardiff

6. Sheff Wed

7. Leicester

8. Forest

9. Charlton

10. Bolton

I'd put Rovers at about 15th, but if Venkys continue their damage to our long-term support, that could quickly slip to about 20th.

Cardiff,Charlton ahead of Rovers?..when was the last time they averaged a bigger crowd than Rovers?

Surely how big a club is considered MUST be a combination of Crowds and success through their respective history.I'm proud to say we wipe the floor with the vast majority of the sides in this division,that's not being cocky its just fact.

I just feel we may have to be prepared to fight our corner with some opposition fans come August.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Cardiff,Charlton ahead of Rovers?..when was the last time they averaged a bigger crowd than Rovers?

Surely how big a club is considered MUST be a combination of Crowds and success through their respective history.I'm proud to say we wipe the floor with the vast majority of the sides in this division,that's not being cocky its just fact.

I just feel we may have to be prepared to fight our corner with some opposition fans come August.

Cardiff are on the rise, the last 2 seasons they've averaged over 22,000, something we didn't manage in a promotion-winning season just 6 years after being champions of england. And Charlton regularly averaged 26,000+ in the PL.

Well its all down to interpretation but to me its only worth arguing about how big a club is if you're talking about what its capable of in the future, what its potential is. As I said the skill of certain managers can alter things in the short-term, but in the long-term the only thing that matters is money and how much your support is capable of generating. Its the grim reality that when it comes to us, thats not much. And as proud as I am of our history, it strikes me as a very weak argument to inflate the size of Rovers based on success that was largely had pre-1930.

Our place in the pyramid should be bottom half of the championship, and it generally would be without Jack Walker, or the occasional excellent manager. Which is exactly why I used to get wound up by fans who weren't happy with Allardyce's style, or weren't happy with Andrews/Pedersen/Roberts representing us as mediocre PL players. Many didn't appreciate how lucky we had it, I guess now they'll find out.

[Mattyblue]

18 years out of 20 in the PL (and winning it), qualifying for Europe throughout the 2000s with numerous cup semi finals, and actually winning a cup is modern 'success' most clubs on your list could only dream of.

If higher crowds, higher achievement on the pitch in modern times and far more trophies throughout our history make you a smaller club than the likes of Cardiff City , Bolton and Charlton, then I obviously have missed something somewhere.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

We have been very well supported,past and present for a town that only has a population of some 105,000.Yes,we have had bad periods like the 70's and 80's were the gates fell but that was the same with most clubs.

Its NEVER a 'weak argument' to write off a clubs cup winning history however far back it stretches...I dont use it to inflate the size of our club but for me personally its what defines clubs like ours from the rest.

Charlton 'fans'....where were they for the Full members final at Wembley....potential?

[roverandout]

can agree with leeds beeing 'one of the biggest' but not sure why forest are there or sheffield wednesday, we have won more trophies than forrest, they won 2 european cups, back to back i think, apart from that they have really done naff all, sheffield wednesday won most of their trophies back when tv wasnt invented, i would put us in success terms in the top 5 in this division and thats only because there are some pittiful clubs in this league, just shows how much we have fallen from grace.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

In terms of measuring "big" clubs, attendance/catchment area etc play a part but I don't hold much weight to it. I live in Bristol at the moment which, including immediate surrounding areas, has over 1 million people but if a local told me Bristol City or Bristol Rovers were a bigger club than us I would laugh in their face.

For me, trophies won is the most significant factor....so in the Championship, the only clubs I would consider at our level would be Leeds, Sheff Wed, Forrest and Wolves.

Stadium size and the size of the city/town are important but if anything we should be given extra credit from being from a smaller town, in my eyes anyway.

Forrest have won 1 League title, 2 FA Cups and 2 European Cups....Wolves have won 3 League titles and 4 FA Cups....Sheff Wed have won 4 League titles and 3 FA Cups....Leeds have won 3 League titles, 1 FA Cup and 2 Uefa Cup equivalents.....and we have won 3 League Titles and 6 FA Cups.

I don't consider anything relating to "oh well they have money now so they must be considered as bigger"......you have to achieve something with it, otherwise you are just a Newcastle or Spurs who have spent ridiculous money recently and have a couple of Carling Cups between them.

If you were to give say 3 points for a Champions League and 2 for a UEFA Cup, 2 points for a League title and 1 for an FA Cup then Forrest would be on 10 points....Wolves would be on 10.....Sheff Wed would be on 11.....Leeds would be on 11......and we would be on 12.

Maybe I'm just biased but I could probably put us top of the pile on "big" clubs in the C'ship.... and if the other clubs were from a town of 105,000 or so, would they be as successful? And if we were from a city then rest assured we would have been a dominant force in English football......not forgetting us, Everton and Villa are the only teams to have been a member of the original Football League and Premier League.

Like Leon Best says we are a massive club haha

[roversfan99]

I think you have substituted a big club for a successful club.

Whilst your point is absolutely correct that there isn't any point in having the resources but not fulfilling your potential with tangible success, a smaller successful club is technically punching above it's weight. We are perhaps more successful than say Leicester, but that is because we have used and managed our resources more efficiently. They have a bigger stadium, a bigger fan-base, more money and are based in a bigger area but we have been more successful.

You are right though in that we deserve credit for our success but that doesn't necessarily mean we are a bigger club than anyone.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

I think you have substituted a big club for a successful club.

Whilst your point is absolutely correct that there isn't any point in having the resources but not fulfilling your potential with tangible success, a smaller successful club is technically punching above it's weight. We are perhaps more successful than say Leicester, but that is because we have used and managed our resources more efficiently. They have a bigger stadium, a bigger fan-base, more money and are based in a bigger area but we have been more successful.

You are right though in that we deserve credit for our success but that doesn't necessarily mean we are a bigger club than anyone.

I just wrote a long answer to that statement and lost it and now I really can't be bothered to write it again.

Basically, I feel success should be the defining factor....Leicester have won 0 League titles and 0 FA Cups.....Cardiff have won 1 FA Cup.....fair enough if us and Leeds have won the same then they would be "bigger".....but catchment area/attendance should not be considered that important imo because otherwise you would have to consider the Bristol clubs as "big"......city clubs who have won less would swap what they have over us for our trophies without question........we are also 9th on the all time Premier league table and 11th on the overall one.....for me that is a lot more significant than being from one of the largest cities in England.

Fair enough if you are from a city and have achieved success also but otherwise I wouldn't put teams above us who haven't....so probably Leeds, Sheff Wed and Forrest can be classed as bigger...but just because we have been similarly successful and they are from cities as well.....for me, a team who has won a few things less shouldn't be classed as bigger, regardless of other factors.

[cletus]

Been reading a few Championship opposition websites over these last few weeks to guage opinions and get a general feeling for our new 'home'.Surprisingly, I've come across the above same question on many clubs sites.I was particularly interested in a discussion on a 'Brighton and Hove' web that placed us in this position in the follwing table of,yes,thats right....BIGGEST CLUBS in the Championship........

Leeds

Sheff Wed

Wolves

Nottingham Forest

Derby

Ipswich

Leicester

Cardiff

Brighton

Crystal Palace

Charlton

Bristol City

Birmingham

Middlesborough

Hull

Bolton

Watford

Blackburn

Huddersfield

Burnley

Millwall

Barnsley

Blackpool

Peterborough.

Now I know that footballing 'BIG' can be a combination of many factors,Crowds,Trophy success and general footballing history but after seeing the above table,rubbing my eyes and spending a little time cleaning the coffee I had spat out over my Keyboard in amazement (yes,someone believes Watford and Brighton to be bigger clubs than Rovers! ) I would like to put the question to our own fans......

Where do you really see us in a table of this kind?

hmmm?

So, if Rovers finish the season above 18th place, Coco & the Loons from Pune will say we`re "Punching well above our weight!"

I can almost hear the press conference now!

[cletus]

Bolton 10th?

They've not had higher attendances than us in decades.

If you mean 2012 boycotted Rovers, then fair enough.

When Sam was getting them into europe (around that era) the Piggies were getting crowds well above ours.....around the 27/28k mark on a regular basis.

We were in the low to mid 20s

...Strangely (coincidence? ) During Sam`s reign at Ewood, the atmosphere in the ground improved dramatically with the introduction of the 'unreserved' Darwen End & season tickets (around the 19k mark) the highest since the Jack Walker 'glory years' of the mid 90s. We were averaging 24/25k & growing season on season.

Just look what the Loons from Pune have done! *despairs*

[whatdial]

I mainly go off attendances in the big clubs debate. Attendances pretty much decide the match and commercial revenue streams and as everyone gets a similar amount in TV money, they are usually the deciding factors. Excellent chairmen/managers/players and rich owners can allow some clubs (like Rovers) to buck the trend, but long-term a big club is one with a big catchment area and high attendances. So the big clubs in the Championship would be:

1. Leeds

2. Derby

3. Wolves

4. Birmingham

5. Cardiff

6. Sheff Wed

7. Leicester

8. Forest

9. Charlton

10. Bolton

I'd put Rovers at about 15th, but if Venkys continue their damage to our long-term support, that could quickly slip to about 20th.

Wednesday had 38 thousand at their last match of the season, which shows the potential despite years of poor football. We are massive. For me biggest clubs:

Leeds, forest, owls, rovers. Rest much of a muchness.

[thenodrog]

I think some people need to wake up and smell the coffee.... or at least travel around the country. Blackburn is a small depressed northern town with (leaving darwen apart) a population of probably a little over 100,000. It's surrounded by staunchly supported rivals and has a significant number of citizens who have absolutely no affinity with the football club.

We have committed supporters but unfortunately not enough. In a nutshell there is very very little potential to even support a team in the Championship never mind the Premier League.

Oh btw I think Nottm Forest have just leapt to the top of that list.

[PAFELL]

I'm sure I read somewhere about the huge potential for Brighton given their location/catchment area, but to suggest that they are bigger than us now is ridiculous.

They sold out all their season tickets last season. 17000. With 3000 on the waiting list. Currently increasing the capacity of the stadium by further 8000. I would not say location / catchment area, as Falmer where the ground is, is outside of Brighton. Falmer itself is more like a village - if that. A few houses and a college / university. They do have an owner who loaned the club about 100ml, which does not need to be repaid until 2023. His attitude is, if I get it back, ok, if not, that is ok as well. He's a brighton version of Jack Walker.

[Earlydoors]

can agree with leeds beeing 'one of the biggest' but not sure why forest are there or sheffield wednesday, we have won more trophies than forrest, they won 2 european cups, back to back i think, apart from that they have really done naff all, sheffield wednesday won most of their trophies back when tv wasnt invented, i would put us in success terms in the top 5 in this division and thats only because there are some pittiful clubs in this league, just shows how much we have fallen from grace.

Both Forest and Wednesday regularly got around 25000 gates in League one. Not sure what Wenesday charge but tickets for Forest have cost more than Rovers as long as I can remember. Once you remove the Sky Premier League money they generate far more revenue.

[Mattyblue]

Of course they do, they are from big cities.

If being a 'big club' is about fanbase only, then yes we are a 'smaller club' than Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed etc.

[longsiders1882]

Been reading a few Championship opposition websites over these last few weeks to guage opinions and get a general feeling for our new 'home'.Surprisingly, I've come across the above same question on many clubs sites.I was particularly interested in a discussion on a 'Brighton and Hove' web that placed us in this position in the follwing table of,yes,thats right....BIGGEST CLUBS in the Championship........

Leeds

Sheff Wed

Wolves

Nottingham Forest

Derby

Ipswich

Leicester

Cardiff

Brighton

Crystal Palace

Charlton

Bristol City

Birmingham

Middlesborough

Hull

Bolton

Watford

Blackburn

Huddersfield

Burnley

Millwall

Barnsley

Blackpool

Peterborough.

Now I know that footballing 'BIG' can be a combination of many factors,Crowds,Trophy success and general footballing history but after seeing the above table,rubbing my eyes and spending a little time cleaning the coffee I had spat out over my Keyboard in amazement (yes,someone believes Watford and Brighton to be bigger clubs than Rovers! ) I would like to put the question to our own fans......

Where do you really see us in a table of this kind?

Not really an easy question to answer, nor indeed one where there is a definitive answer really, but you have to try and factor in history, cash, fanbase and potential. It would be hard to argue with your parachute payments, average gates over the last decade or so and success that Rovers are not in the top 5 or so. I've never quite got this Brighton obsession, they have no history of big support - maybe there is potential but you'd have to wonder why it's never materialised in all the years of league football.

I think most leagues can be seperated into about 3 sections in terms of current size, a sort of top, middle and bottom. And yes before you say it, I know Burnley would be in the bottom section, doesn't really worry me, I don't support them because they are big or glamorous, simply because they are my local club. Over all I'd imagine the three sections would contain, though I'm sure arguments could be made for a few to be in the top etc:

Top:

Leeds

Sheff Wed

Wolves

Blackburn

Leicester

Nottingham Forest

Middle:

Derby

Ipswich

Cardiff

Brighton

Charlton

Bristol City

Birmingham

Middlesborough

Bolton

Bottom:

Hull

Watford

Crystal Palace

Huddersfield

Burnley

Millwall

Barnsley

Blackpool

Peterborough.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Bolton 10th?

They've not had higher attendances than us in decades.

If you mean 2012 boycotted Rovers, then fair enough.

Like for like, ie when in same division with similar prices and when we were not challenging for the title, Bolton have had bigger crowds than us more often than not, though not by as much as the town is bigger.

[Mattyblue]

Apart from the couple of years when Allardyce had them top 8 and last season, Bolton have rarely averaged more.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I think some people need to wake up and smell the coffee.... or at least travel around the country. Blackburn is a small depressed northern town with (leaving darwen apart) a population of probably a little over 100,000. It's surrounded by staunchly supported rivals and has a significant number of citizens who have absolutely no affinity with the football club.

We have committed supporters but unfortunately not enough. In a nutshell there is very very little potential to even support a team in the Championship never mind the Premier League.

Very much agree with this. I think ever since the title win there's been an inflated sense of our club's importance amongst our support. The vast majority of neutrals would not consider us a big club, and to me we've always been on the verge of slipping into the delusional category occupied by the likes of Tottenham and west ham fans.

I'm not trying to belittle the club, because if you take the standpoint that we're small, it makes what we've achieved (especially post-walker) a magnificent accomplishment. If we're not small then it was merely decent. And also I agree that for the town size, our support is incredible. The place is about the 100th biggest in England, and in my opinion the club is about the 35th biggest. But any more than that I think we're still trying to stand on the shoulders of a benefactor who's no longer around.

[Mattyblue]

We aren't a 'big club', nobody says we are.

We are a small town club that has achieved more than any town club in Britain, not arrogance, 'tis a fact.

But of course, as a town club with limited resources, once you fall out of the top flight, you can quickly plummet- that's why many of us are so aghast at what's gone on this last 18 months. Not delusional in the slightest, everybody knew we were on a tightrope.

But to say we are no 'bigger' than Watford, Cardiff et al, I mean come on!

[K-Hod]

Not really an easy question to answer, nor indeed one where there is a definitive answer really, but you have to try and factor in history, cash, fanbase and potential. It would be hard to argue with your parachute payments, average gates over the last decade or so and success that Rovers are not in the top 5 or so. I've never quite got this Brighton obsession, they have no history of big support - maybe there is potential but you'd have to wonder why it's never materialised in all the years of league football.

I think most leagues can be seperated into about 3 sections in terms of current size, a sort of top, middle and bottom. And yes before you say it, I know Burnley would be in the bottom section, doesn't really worry me, I don't support them because they are big or glamorous, simply because they are my local club. Over all I'd imagine the three sections would contain, though I'm sure arguments could be made for a few to be in the top etc:

Top:

Leeds

Sheff Wed

Wolves

Blackburn

Leicester

Nottingham Forest

Middle:

Derby

Ipswich

Cardiff

Brighton

Charlton

Bristol City

Birmingham

Middlesborough

Bolton

Bottom:

Hull

Watford

Crystal Palace

Huddersfield

Burnley

Millwall

Barnsley

Blackpool

Peterborough.

Largely agree with this to be fair, though I'd probably add Derby into the 'top' group of your list. Very big fan base, and good away followings that I've seen.

[longsiders1882]

I did wonder about Derby but the way I was going there'd have been 10 teams in the top group - I felt along with them you could make arguments for Birmingham, Boro and possibly Ipswich

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I would put your club Longsider edging into that middle bracket of teams.It also struck me very strange how a club that only a few seasons ago in Brighton was averaging 6,000 now has fans who condsider themselves above clubs like ours in the pecking order.It's all about personal opinion but to put (with due respect) clubs like Brighton and Watford ahead of Rover is ludicrous never mind another 35 SKH!!

Blackburn Olympic have won more domestic trophys than both of them together!

I think cn174 summed it up perfectly in the history section:

''More FA Cup wins than any other town team, more times champions of England than any other town, winners of major trophies in three different centuries. Blackburn the club has always been caught between two stools. Too successful to judge themselves against most of the other town teams (Burnley apart who also punched above their weight and as such became worthwhile eternal rivals) and yet conversely too small to consistently challenge the big-city clubs, Rovers were an enigma. A contradiction and a team set apart. Their past was always glorious, yet their present and future has often been unsure. So what is it about Blackburn Rovers as a football club that makes them special''

[longsiders1882]

That's a good snippet from the history section. Yeah we possibly are edging for the middle bracket but only just.

The Brighton thing, doesn't take 'new' fans long to develop an amazing level of arrogance does it? Lets see how their attendances hold up if they have a couple of bad seasons.

[Earlydoors]

I did wonder about Derby but the way I was going there'd have been 10 teams in the top group - I felt along with them you could make arguments for Birmingham, Boro and possibly Ipswich

Derby had biggest average attendance in Championship last season although, like Rovers, they encourage that through reducing ticket prices.

For me a Big club is all about fanbase and everything (revenue) that flows from that.

Success is a different measure - trophies.

And a big club without trophies is known as a 'sleeping giant'