[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Paul]

It's been exactly two months since the Newton shooting. 1,793 more have been killed by gun violence in the meantime.

Plastics is that really accurate and is it just America?

Have you got a link?

Thanks

[Mike E]

Isn't the law something like 'reasonable force'? So if they come in with a gun and threaten you/family and even kill one of them, doesn't that entitle you to kill them (tho unwritten)?

I know if someone killed a family member in my home, I wouldn't care for their sodding human rights.

[den]

When you get burgled and are in a panic with gun in hand, you'll probably shoot the bugger. Simple as that. I'm not an advocate of guns but I don't blame those who have them legally if they shoot a night-time intruder.

I only have a golf club to hand myself but I'll have a go at anyone intending to hurt my family in my home.

There was no intruder. He murdered her like I keep telling people.

[thenodrog]

You've stated you are prepared to use a gun - you're the same as Pistorius.

Please go and live in the US or S Africa where they condone and in the case of the former relish gun violence.

I do keep hearing that guns are difficult to get in SA but I'd love to know the 'Lives For' v 'Lives against' gun column in South Africa cos I'm damned sure that their very presence has saved an awful lot of innocent lives being lost too. SA can be a lawless place I'm told. Comments about Pistorius having a small arsenal in his home don't influence me greatly cos with him being a cripple and with his fame and wealth I'd imagine he'd be the softest of soft targets for the legions of violent thugs without them.

[Andy]

Isn't the law something like 'reasonable force'? So if they come in with a gun and threaten you/family and even kill one of them, doesn't that entitle you to kill them (tho unwritten)?

I know if someone killed a family member in my home, I wouldn't care for their sodding human rights.

'Reasonable force' is correct, but it has to be proporationate reasonable force.

For example, if there's a struggle with a burglar who has a weapon, you wouldn't be prosecuted if - whilst fearing for your own safety/life - you managed to get the weapon from them and use it against them.

However, disproportionate force is then continuing to shoot the bugger whilst he's down, going into the kitchen, grabbing a rolling pin before returning and flattening them a few more times.

Essentially if you can prove that any force you applied was 1) in the heat of the battle (ie you just grabbed something at hand during the struggle) and 2) by doing this, you were protecting yourself/your family/your property from a real danger of harm then you will not be prosecuted.

An example of disproportionate force is the farmer who shot the burglar in the back, as the burglar ran away.

Was he wrong to do that? I'd say no personally, but the law deems that disproportionate force in the circumstances.

[jim mk2]

says the self proclaimed aussie hater.

Englishmen who support Australia at sport, Abbey.

Birthplace of Apartheid Jim? Okay, those were dark days, but in a country where people still make racist remarks at a football game, you bring forth Apartheid? This Oscar incident had nothing to do with racism, but we shall soon find out exactly why he shot her

Remark wasn't directed at S Africa as such, merely at the poster who has a tendency to make racist and homophobic comments. Friends moved to SA recently - from the photos they sent they have a very nice house in a pleasant place but why do the windows all have bars on ?

[Plastics]

Plastics is that really accurate and is it just America?

Have you got a link?

Thanks

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

[jim mk2]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

Astonishing statistics: thankfully this could only happen in the USA.

[Baz]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html

Thats amazingly clustered isnt it. Keep away from the East coast i reckon. 1700 a month is some record. In Britain 3 people were killed by an avalanche this week, that would barely make a sub heading in New Jersey.

Probably safer taking on the taliban, than living in some of those clusters.

[Mike E]

There was no intruder. He murdered her like I keep telling people.

I know. I was talking 'as if' it was an intruder. Hope the @#/? gets sent down.

[SydneyRover]

Thats amazingly clustered isnt it. Keep away from the East coast i reckon. 1700 a month is some record. In Britain 3 people were killed by an avalanche this week, that would barely make a sub heading in New Jersey.

Probably safer taking on the taliban, than living in some of those clusters.

It appears to match up to the big urban centres, there's much fewer areas of big open spaces, desert and such like on the Eastern side of the US than the Western side.

137 gun deaths of children under the age of 18, including 32 deaths of children aged 12 or under, from guns in the two months since Newtown. Unbelievable. And as has been said, there will be some not covered here.

Anyone who still bangs on about gun rights after seeing these stats really is beyond help.

[CapeTownRover]

Englishmen who support Australia at sport, Abbey.

Remark wasn't directed at S Africa as such, merely at the poster who has a tendency to make racist and homophobic comments. Friends moved to SA recently - from the photos they sent they have a very nice house in a pleasant place but why do the windows all have bars on ?

Englishmen who support Australia at sport, Abbey.

Remark wasn't directed at S Africa as such, merely at the poster who has a tendency to make racist and homophobic comments. Friends moved to SA recently - from the photos they sent they have a very nice house in a pleasant place but why do the windows all have bars on ?

Jim, majority of homes have bars on. More often than not, its just a means to keep burglers out, or at least allow the owners to have time to react as the burglar will still be struggling to get that off. Crime is heavy in out country, the world knows that. One has to be vigilent at times, and do what is necessary to protect ones homes and family. Other countries might be different, but here we put measures into place to stop would be crimes happening. Guns here are normally easy to obtain, but more often than not, are illegally obtained. Some of the guns have been used before to commit crimes, so its dangerous territory for one to buy a gun like that. Like i said before, Pistorius could only fire one warning shot as per the law in terms of owning a gun. anything more without being provoked would mean 1st degree murder if the person had been killed.

[ABBEY]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl-player-accused-having-gun-005435933--nfl.html

[Amo]

On a slight tangent, is it true that a woman is raped every 17 secs in South Africa?

[jim mk2]

And so it goes on ................

Press Association

FOUR DEAD IN US SHOOTING SPREE

A shooting spree through California has left four people dead, including the gunman, and several others injured.

Orange County sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said the shootings began in the early hours when deputies responding to a call found a female shot multiple times in a house in Ladera Ranch.

Three more people were fatally shot in the next 25 minutes after carjackings in Tustin and Santa Ana.

Mr Amormino said the suspect shot himself at an intersection in Tustin.

The motive for the shootings is still unclear and it is also unclear if the victims knew each other or the gunman.

[Guest Norbert]

And that isn't the ex policeman who went on the run is it? I always think it is cowardly for these nutjobs to kill themselves after their rampages. They should have the courage to admit their crimes in a court, face the consequences and explain why they went mental.

[Steve Moss]

At the risk of sending some into a fit, some might be interested in this:

http://ktar.com/22/1615433/Arizona-county-board-lifts-ban-on-guns-in-building

By way of background, Mohave County was formed in 1864. From 1864 though 2010 citizens were allowed to carry guns into the public buildings. In 2010 a citizen presented himself at a Board of Supervisor meeting dressed up as a 18th century farmer, complete with pitchfork, as a form of protest against the county's taxing intentions. I think he was trying to use his costume as a tie-in to the founding fathers and the anti-tax agenda.

Long story short, the county manager over-reacted (as he tended to do when met with opposition), convinced the then board to ban weapons (which I thought was fairly amusing as up until then pistols were fine but a pitchfork put them over the edge), install a metal detector and hire a number of armed security guards.

The pitch fork gentleman was also charged with some crimes but he was acquitted as the trial judge correctly noted he was exercising his right to protest and never actually pointed the pitchfork at anyone (it was slung over his shoulder via a sling).

By way of example of supposed "real" threats which have been encountered in the county building, once a person was released from jail, had nowhere to go, so wandered into the county building and used the washroom to first clean himself up and then take nap. He was never armed and was a non-violent offender.

The county staff also claims the former county manager received a written death threat, but the actual letter has not yet been produced though I have asked for it and I suppose I should get it (if it exists) as I'm, in theory, one of their bosses. That said, he may have well received a threat (as I have in the 63 days I've been a supervisor), but being stampeded by anonymous letters is not good policy, in my opinion.

[jim mk2]

I really don't know how you have the gall to post on here.

Until I read this FT article I didn't realise that in the past 30 years, more than 116,000 children and teenagers have been
killed by firearms in the US. That appalling statistic alone negates any argument by the US right and the NRA.

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e9fb2334-8009-11e2-96ba-00144feabdc0.html

[Steve Moss]

Jim Mohave County is a land mass almost twice the size of Wales and almost half the size of Scotland. The population is around 205,000 people. We had 4 murders last year. 90% of those killings are domestic disputes and drug deals. About 1/2 involve a firearm.

There is no violence issue in our county admin building. Countywide our homicide rate isn't anywhere near the gang warfare found in inner cities, mostly as we don't have gangs.

So all in all I have no problem trusting my fellow citizens with a firearm. Your experience and decision making is apparently different. Good for you. But I'll go with my judgement not yours.

[jim mk2]

116,000 children killed by firearms over 30 years ....... and still you argue.

[Steve Moss]

Yes, Jim. Still I argue. As I'm on my cell phone I can't double check your stats easily.

Assuming their accuracy I would point out rural and suburban America is a dramatically different creature than gangland America. Separate the two and we're safer than you are. And I don't chose to be a surrender monkey because some gangland hood is doing drive byes and killing kids. I prefer to execute the murderer.

[jim mk2]

116,000 dead because guns are easily available. You're welcome to your sick society.

[Guest Norbert]

Yes, Jim. Still I argue. As I'm on my cell phone I can't double check your stats easily.

Assuming their accuracy I would point out rural and suburban America is a dramatically different creature than gangland America. Separate the two and we're safer than you are. And I don't chose to be a surrender monkey because some gangland hood is doing drive byes and killing kids. I prefer to execute the murderer.

So 'gangland America' is a different country to the peaceful, gun loving suburban America, and therefore doesn't count? Now I am not that knowledgable about urban areas of the USA, but could that cinema in Colorado, the school in Columbine, or that place that had that shooting in a school a few months ago, or where that policeman in LA who had a mental breakdown be classed as a suburban/rural area rather than some shifty part of New York or Washington?

The argument that good people need guns to save themselves from bad people has been spanked by that loon in LA. He was ex-military, a former policeman and therefore an all round American hero. He suffered a complete mental breakdown, shot a few people and basically did a Rauol Moat, therefore becoming one of your bad people you want to go all Clint Eastwood on. And who's to say something similar won't happen again, a former pillar of the community going postal and murdering a few people with a gun he legally and easily bought?

And theoretically speaking, if you missed when trying to 'execute the murderer', and hit a random person, are you a good person who needs a bit more target practice, or a bad person for harming a bystander with what is essentially a violent act? And in 'executing the murderer' in such an off hand way, are you not a vengeful, angry vigilatne type acting on similar base instincts to those who kill so many in 'gangland America'?

[Steve Moss]

So 'gangland America' is a different country to the peaceful, gun loving suburban America, and therefore doesn't count?

The argument that good people need guns to save themselves from bad people has been spanked by that loon in LA. He was ex-military, a former policeman and therefore an all round American hero.

1. The differences between the two environments are stark. The vast bulk of murders occur in the cities, and most of those within the a few square miles that even police hesitate to go. Almost always centered around gangs and drugs. Solve that problem and you solve the majority of the homicide problem in the USA (and probably many other countries as well).

By way of comparison, Mohave County had 6 homicides in 2011. Two of those involved law officers killing criminals. Two involved knives. One involved a Ford F-150 pick-up truck. The last used a pump action shot-gun. In 2012 we had 4 homicides, all with a firearm. One via Winchester 1894 (the old cowboy rifle you see on TV). One with a shotgun. One with a .45 pistol. And only one with an "assault" rifle (a cheap SKS from China or some such country) One of those 4 homicides may well not be a murder, as the trial resulted in a hung jury on the self-defense claim (which I think was the .45 pistol, though I'm not positive).

Of those 10 homicides in 2 years (counting the 2 killed by police- homicide does not equate to murder), 90% involved drugs and domestic disputes/emotionally unstable people. The possible self-defense shooting (and possibly not, the next jury will decide) might be the exception.

So assuming we're looking at facts and not being stampeded based on ill-considered emotional pleas (think of the children!), if you want to virtually eliminate your chances of being killed by a firearm:

a. Stay away the inner cities.

b. Stay away from drugs and drug users.

c. Avoid unstable domestic partners.

Even if you own and your neighbors own a 100 guns each, your chances of being killed with one become incredibly remote if you follow the above three bits of advice.

If you want the chance to approach zero, we need to deal with the mental health issues in this country- which seems the root of the attempted (and sometimes successful) school massacres.

2. The person you are referring to was a known nut and, in my opinion, evil. That's why they were trying to throw him off the police force. It's amazing that people seem surprised when crazy people do crazy things.

[jim mk2]

So assuming we're looking at facts and not being stampeded based on ill-considered emotional pleas (think of the children!), if you want to virtually eliminate your chances of being killed by a firearm:

Most people would look at this and think you were mentally unbalanced.