[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Audax]

Exactly Salgado, I was about to mention that story myself.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/man-who-dobbed-in-suspects-accused-of-murdering-melbourne-baseball-player-chris-lane-says-his-son-was-next/story-fni0fiyv-1226700172461

That's just the worse, horrible story.

I was hearing that these "kids" are not suppose to legally be able to own a gun but I'm not sure if that is actually correct. Could be, you wouldn't think 15/16 year olds should have that right but I don't know for sure.

I felt real bad for Trayvon Martin, figured, let me put it this way, Zimmerman should have handled the situation with a lot more caution, stayed in his car, waited for the cops I would say but when something like this Australian 23 year old on a baseball scholarship gets gunned down by hoodlums, it really makes my blood boil alright.

To me, this incident is shocking like the Drummer Lee Rigby incident.

[Audax]

It's too bad it is so lawless but let's remember, there are also stories where people defend themselves with guns:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/21/homeowner-shoots-escaped-prisoner-in-southwest-iowa/?intcmp=trending

"Rodney Long was shot to death after he broke into a retired farm couple's home in Bedford about 10:15 p.m. Monday, awakening them. Long, who was armed with a handgun, cut their telephone lines and used their cell phone, Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation Special Agent Mitch Mortvedt said.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/21/homeowner-shoots-escaped-prisoner-in-southwest-iowa/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2cck1Yoqb "

[ultrablue]

I'm extraordinarily proud of my country.

Most especially as we aren. so spineless to give up our civil liberties because of the actions of suicides and gangsters.

I'd say there is much for Americans to be proud of. Your country's history of protecting civil liberties is certainly not one of them. Most recently the Patriot Act did more to erode American civil liberties than any piece of gun legislation ever has. The upcoming voter ID proposals will further complicate the basic right to vote. It seems the federal government has been granted access to every facet of an American's life except whether or not he owns lethal weapons. To the rest of the world this is a major oversight and the envy of no one.

[Steve Moss]

Colorado Senators who pushed through the Colorado's anti-gun laws are recalled by the voters:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/us/colorado-lawmaker-concedes-defeat-in-recall-over-gun-law.html?hp&_r=1&

[Tom]

Another mass shooting today leaving 12 dead plus the shooter

Reports suggest he had a license to carry a gun concealed

[jim mk2]

Well, what do you expect ? It's his constitutional right to kill.

[Guest Norbert]

Doesn't the second amendment allow guns as part of an organised militia? Or is it just any Tom Dick and Harry?

And hasn't there been a few nutjobs going mad in miltary sites hasn't there?

[Steve Moss]

Any law abiding, mentally competent citizen can own and carry a gun, with some exceptions. The trick is weeding out the non-law abiding (who won't obey the law in any event) and the mental defectives.

So far as I'm aware, there have been two recent mass shootings on military bases. The first is the Fort Hood shooting which is pretty clearly an act of terrorism, even though the Obama Administration calls it workplace violence.

The second is the Navy yard shooting. The shooter is a weird duck (a black man from Queens, living at a Buddhist temple, who liked guns) so we're still waiting for more information from him. The most recent information is that he entered the base with a shotgun, killed some guards and took their pistols. Reports that he had an AR-15 are apparently inaccurate.

[Paul]

The second is the Navy yard shooting. The shooter is a weird duck (a black man from Queens, living at a Buddhist temple, who liked guns) so we're still waiting for more information from him. The most recent information is that he entered the base with a shotgun, killed some guards and took their pistols. Reports that he had an AR-15 are apparently inaccurate.

On BBC Radio 4 (serious, highly respected news programme) this morning three Americans, including his brother-in-law, who claim to know this man described him as quiet and showing no signs of someone who would act in this manner - I'm not sure this tallies with "weird duck."

[speeeeeeedie]

The Onion's take on yesterday's attack; http://www.theonion.com/articles/location-of-newest-mass-shooting-revealed,33877/

[Steve Moss]

On BBC Radio 4 (serious, highly respected news programme) this morning three Americans, including his brother-in-law, who claim to know this man described him as quiet and showing no signs of someone who would act in this manner - I'm not sure this tallies with "weird duck."

Err... the news reports are stating Navy Yard shooter was hearing voices and had a history of paranoia. So yes, I suspect that my initial impression that a Queen's born, gun loving Buddhist seemed a bit weird is being born out.

[Paul]

Steve there are reports of a mental health issue alongside numerous interviews, in the same report, that his actions seem totally out of character and Alexis was generally well liked. I've yet to hear any interview in which someone claiming to know Alexis suggests he was a nutter.

I'm not trying to have a go at you just pointing out the UK reports vary. The BBC is not an organisation to speculate.

I heard one guy interviewed who stated Alexis was just a normal guy with an interest in guns who, "just like my own son and daughter," like to go down to the range. Now it seems to me this is an odd view but that's because I don't view an "interest in guns" as healthy in the way it was described.

Describing the guy as black, from Queens, and a Buddhist who likes guns seems to imply a certain bias. Equally I'm sure the facts are correct. However:

Black. Why is this relevant?

From Queens. Is Queens generally populated with weird people? I don't know.

Buddhist. So if it was a Catholic church or shelter would that make a difference?

Likes guns. I thought this was normal in the USA?

I'm not trying to defend this guy but pointing out UK reporting is describing a person with health issues who has acted apparently out if character. Yes I have read the reports of the navy discharge, shooting out tyres and a shooting incident in an apartment. None of this though prevented him being allowed to keep weapons or visit a secure naval base.

I just feel your joining together of several true statements in this way attempts to build a different picture based around implied bias towards those characteristics.

[Steve Moss]

Paul- a black man from Queens (but who self-described as a Texan) who is a Buddhist (I assume not by birth) who is infatuated with guns is a very strange combination.

Heck, a Buddhist gun enthusiast is a strange enough combination, without even adding the rest into it. I've known Buddhists. They are generally very good people, if a bit flakier than most (IMO). I've never met a professed Buddhist with a penchant for firearms.

I've known Texans. I've known people from Queens. For the most part both groups have been good people. Both groups are very proud of where they are from. I've never known a person from Queens to self-identify as a Texan.

I state all of the above based upon my personal life experiences, not statistical evidence. I have no idea what the BBC is saying, but from what I've seen characterizing him as a "weird duck" is more than warranted. Which was apparently a fairly good estimation- http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_YARD_SHOOTING_GUNMAN_MENTAL_HEALTH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-17-08-03-32

[Guest Norbert]

Gun fanatic/Buddhist is an unusual combination (makes me think of Steven Seagal FFS), and if he had the whole voices in his head thing, then he is a 'weird duck'. Then again, I can't get my head round the whole gun worship thing in general. The sight of an AK-47 doesn't arouse me like it does to a powerful section of America and elsewhere.

So most of these swivel eyed fanatics who probably need to 'relieve' themselves whenever they flick through a gun catalogue are 'weird ducks' to me. Wherever they are from.

[ultrablue]

Where this guy was from, where he said he was from, the religion he was interested in. None of it make a ha'penth of difference.

What matters is what drove him to enter a naval base intent on killing as many people as possible. What made him want that legacy? Clearly his mental state in the weeks running up to the event is where answers lie. We now know he left his job as a military contractor recently. That strikes me as more significant than whether he was from Queens or Texas.

Secondly, following the theme of this thread, the presence of two other guns in the building actually added to the death toll in this case. He was able to gain extra firepower by killing guards and taking their handguns. This runs contrary to the NRA and Fox News stance that guns stop bad guys with guns.

Fox was also complaining about Clintons executive order that banned concealed personal firearms on base. However this was not a 'gun free zone' as they stated. Security guards were armed, and they, at least initially, exasperated the problem in this case.

[Steve Moss]

They were the first victims. If you have two armed guards standing at the door, a would be serial killer will kill them first and then move on to the defenseless people within the building.

If people could carry weapons concealed, the would be killer will have no idea who is a shooter and who isn't. The death toll would have certainly be less.

Ironically (and sadly), there was a contingent of Marine combat veterans on the base in close proximity to the massacre site. They had rifles but no ammo (under standing orders). They could have cleared that building in a few moments if they'd been given a few rounds.

[Audax]

Alexis had problems.

We knew a man who actually had some far out delusions. This man though he drove a car of course, had a thing about being real sensitive to metal. I think he had ideas that were so outlandish, we didn't pay attention but it did seem similar though I don't think "hearing voices" ever came up.

This man was not around guns, he didn't appear like an outright threat but you don't know.

Video games is another apparent factor with Alexis, violent video games such as "Call of Duty" I think it is called.

[Sparky Marky]

Might be because his mother gave him a girls name. .

[ultrablue]

[quote name="Steve Moss" post="1450694"

If people could carry weapons concealed, the would be killer will have no idea who is a shooter and who isn't. The death toll would have certainly be less.

Ironically (and sadly), there was a contingent of Marine combat veterans on the base in close proximity to the massacre site. They had rifles but no ammo (under standing orders). They could have cleared that building in a few moments if they'd been given a few rounds.

The first of these two paragraphs: That is pure speculation. You cannot possibly say that the death toll would have been smaller with any level of certainty. The shooter in this case is going to shoot at anybody he sees, whether he thinks they are armed or not. That is the nature of a mass shooting.

The second paragraph: the irony is that you think more veterans, possibly with PTSD, should have had ammo at this base, as the way a mass shooting could have been avoided. in fact it increases the probability of a mass shooting as it allows people who have not been vetted by the government, who work at a clear terrorist target to take loaded guns to work. Everyone I have heard talk about military security has said it is not possible to do a thorough background check on every contractor. Surely firearms should continue to be banned in such an environment.

[jim mk2]

Same old skewed US right logic - if everyone were armed to the teeth none of these atrocities would take place because no one would dare attack the other. Worked well in the Wild West didn't it ?

[Audax]

I think the data out there I was hearing is there are more people killed in the USA by stabbings and clubs but I could not find any crime stats on that but it would be interesting to see. It's just that the mass killings get more press coverage.

[Steve Moss]

Audux- far more people are killed with firearms then with knives and clubs in the USA.

What I think you are getting at is more people are killed with knives and clubs in the USA than with so called assault weapons (an illogical and hard to define subcategory of firearms). If one totals up all the long gun deaths in the USA (hunting rifles, shotguns, and "assault" weapons), they are fewer than stabbings and clubbing deaths.

[Mike E]

Same old skewed US right logic - if everyone were armed to the teeth none of these atrocities would take place because no one would dare attack the other. Worked well in the Wild West didn't it ?

Isn't that the logic used to prevent a war between Britain (and France and Russia) and Germany (and Austrio-Hungary)? Ie: the deterrent for using my gun is that my oppo also has a gun.

That worked out well in 1914, didn't it?

[Audax]

Isn't that the logic used to prevent a war between Britain (and France and Russia) and Germany (and Austrio-Hungary)? Ie: the deterrent for using my gun is that my oppo also has a gun.

That worked out well in 1914, didn't it?

If we bring up the Great World War, one has to note 1939 and the whole post World War II era too though countries to me are going to be a bit different than talking about individuals.

A problem with gun control in America from what I've heard is you may have 280, 300 million guns already in circulation, how can this be controlled??

Australia had some sort of gun hand-in I believe, people paid for their guns though I don't know firsthand.

[thenodrog]

Isn't that the logic used to prevent a war between Britain (and France and Russia) and Germany (and Austrio-Hungary)? Ie: the deterrent for using my gun is that my oppo also has a gun.

That worked out well in 1914, didn't it?

It did work through the cold war though.