[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[jim mk2]

At least we don't have our head in the sands over guns. Two days without a shooting incident by the way - is this a record ?

[Steve Moss]

At least we don't have our head in the sands over guns. Two days without a shooting incident by the way - is this a record ?

Actually, Jim, my point is that you do have your heads in the sand about murder.

But I referred to experts about you Brits and I've figured it out: http://www.ehow.co.uk/slideshow_12277520_brits-think-and-know-theyre-better-yanks.html#pg=1

[Paul]

To be honest Steve, it sounds more like you enjoy the sport of rebutting arguments which are opposed to your own. Frequently returning to the same principles.

An old historic 'scripture' says that you are entitled to hold certain beliefs sacred, and you piously defend them against others from outside of your culture who view them as extremist.

Kind of ironic.

I've been trying to express this but have failed miserably. Stuart hits the nail on the head.

Steve your post above calls into question opinions you express as it is now not possible to know whether or not you believe what you write.

Debate is an important and enjoyable part of life, provided one is debating with others who hold opposing views rather than simply arguing for its own sake. A thoroughly pointless exercise.

 

Actually, Jim, my point is that you do have your heads in the sand about murder.

 

But I referred to experts about you Brits and I've figured it out:  http://www.ehow.co.uk/slideshow_12277520_brits-think-and-know-theyre-better-yanks.html#pg=1

Presumably you missed this bit from your link:

"In the US in 2011, there were 8,583 murders using firearms in the US, whereas in the UK there are around 550 murders per year altogether. (ref. 1) You might argue that this is because the population is larger, but there are only five times as many people; the gun-related murder rate alone is over 15 times higher than the UK total."

[Paul]

2. The UK's dramatically increased use of narrative verdicts in homicide (and suicide) cases which your intelligentsia has begun to concede may artificially lower your suicide rates, though they have not yet addressed your murder rate. Here's a rather obvious example- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_verdict

So we in the USA may be uncivilized boors, but at least we're not lying to ourselves.

In relation to suicide rates can I refer you to the Office of National Statistics which reports the increased use of narrative verdicts is not statistically significant, in relation to suicide, in the period 2001- 2009. At the same time the ONS establishes this may become significant in the future.

See page 19, Conclusions

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/hsq/health-statistics-quarterly/spring-2011/narrative-verdicts-and-their-impact-on-mortality-statistics-in-england-and-wales.pdf

[Steve Moss]

In relation to suicide rates can I refer you to the Office of National Statistics which reports the increased use of narrative verdicts is not statistically significant, in relation to suicide, in the period 2001- 2009. At the same time the ONS establishes this may become significant in the future.

See page 19, Conclusions

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/hsq/health-statistics-quarterly/spring-2011/narrative-verdicts-and-their-impact-on-mortality-statistics-in-england-and-wales.pdf

So if these narrative verdicts involve dead people (and they do), and the include murders and suicides which aren't reported as murders and suicides (and they apparently do), and if the suicide portion is statistically insignificant, would that mean a significant portion are actual homicides?

As an FYI, the number of narrative verdicts in the UK was a mere 111 in 2001 but was 3,012 in 2009, and has grown higher sense (I tend to recall it approaching 4,000 in recent years but can't easily locate the supporting data).

I'm not suggesting that all of these are murders, anymore than I'm suggesting that all of these are suicides, or some other cause of death. What I am suggesting is that this is put one piece of the puzzle that must be solved if you really want to know the UK's actual homicide rate, which is significantly higher, in my uneducated opinion, than the reported rate.

[Paul]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear your arguments re UK homicide statistics are an attempt to justify the lack of gun control in the USA. Earlier you provided this link:

http://www.ehow.co.uk/slideshow_12277520_brits-think-and-know-theyre-better-yanks.html#pg=5

In which is stated, it's your link so presumably you agree it,:

" In the US in 2011, there were 8,583 murders using firearms in the US, whereas in the UK there are around 550 murders per year altogether. (ref. 1) You might argue that this is because the population is larger, but there are only five times as many people; the gun-related murder rate alone is over 15 times higher than the UK total."

A narrative verdict covers many different types of death and as far as I can see there is no breakdown to indicate the number of homicides included, or disguised I imagine in your view. To be generous, in the extreme I think most would agree, lets add your 4000 figure to the 550 murder figure and US firearm murders are still double any figure one could reasonably argue in relation to the UK.

The harsh reality is there are 15 times more firearms murders in the USA than the TOTAL number of murders in the UK. There are no statistics prove the murder rate is higher than this in the UK, only supposition. Dress it up anyway you wish but the facts, mainly provided by yourself, prove America has a significant problem with firearms related murder and gun control.

We don't have a 71 year old ex policeman shooting an innocent man over a text message. We don't have child shooting another while "playing" with a loaded firearm found under a bed. We don't have schoolchildren and students taking firearms into school / college to shoot people.

Americans need to understand the problem and appreciate the so called "right to bear arms" is a very big issue. It may well have been appropiate in 1791, it isn't 200+ years later.

[ABBEY]

[ABBEY]

"Banwagon " fans shot ....http://deadspin.com/49ers-fan-allegedly-shoots-two-after-being-accused-of-b-1505721518?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayAM

[jim mk2]

Looks like your average gun totin' GOP/Tea party member, straight out of Deliverance with an IQ to match.

"Banwagon " fans shot ....http://deadspin.com/49ers-fan-allegedly-shoots-two-after-being-accused-of-b-1505721518?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=wednesdayAM

Three days gap since the last shooting. Pretty good for the US.

[ABBEY]

Sean Taylor's murderer gets 57 years .. Not on site as not near computer.

[Steve Moss]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear your arguments re UK homicide statistics are an attempt to justify the lack of gun control in the USA. Earlier you provided this link:

Actually, Paul, I do acknowledge that the USA murder rate is higher than the UK rate. Mostly as we're a society which allows more freedom to our citizens. More freedom = more risk. More risk = more death.

What I'm getting at, in part, is that while the UK may have a lower murder rate than the USA, it's not as a low as you think. In fact, there are some indications your murder rate has risen despite the gun ban. So you have less freedom but that surrender of personal liberties didn't necessarily garner you much in the way of safety.

[Stuart]

Actually, Paul, I do acknowledge that the USA murder rate is higher than the UK rate. Mostly as we're a society which allows more freedom to our citizens. More freedom = more risk. More risk = more death.

What I'm getting at, in part, is that while the UK may have a lower murder rate than the USA, it's not as a low as you think. In fact, there are some indications your murder rate has risen despite the gun ban. So you have less freedom but that surrender of personal liberties didn't necessarily garner you much in the way of safety.

"Surrender of personal liberties"? "More freedom = More death"? It's amazing how we are so similar yet so different.

The right to bear arms shoot people is not a liberty, it's liability.

Land of the free? Or land of the fear?

[Paul]

 

Actually, Paul, I do acknowledge that the USA murder rate is higher than the UK rate.  Mostly as we're a society which allows more freedom to our citizens.  More freedom = more risk.  More risk = more death.

 

What I'm getting at, in part, is that while the UK may have a lower murder rate than the USA, it's not as a low as you think.  In fact, there are some indications your murder rate has risen despite the gun ban.  So you have less freedom but that surrender of personal liberties didn't necessarily garner you much in the way of safety.

Less freedom? I can't carry a gun?

The facts are simple. Americans like to carry guns, as a result lots of them die. Yet people want to preserve the right to bear arms. Seems this freedom business could be over rated.

200m texts monitored a day? Etc.

If you call it freedom your definition is different from mine. The USA must be the most paranoid nation on the planet.

[jim mk2]

Actually, Paul, I do acknowledge that the USA murder rate is higher than the UK rate. Mostly as we're a society which allows more freedom to our citizens. More freedom = more risk. More risk = more death.

What I'm getting at, in part, is that while the UK may have a lower murder rate than the USA, it's not as a low as you think. In fact, there are some indications your murder rate has risen despite the gun ban. So you have less freedom but that surrender of personal liberties didn't necessarily garner you much in the way of safety.

Usual twisted logic of the gun lobby. Where is the "freedom" in feeling the need to own or carry a gun because you fear for your safety ?

Shootings in schools are virtually unheard of here but if this is your kind of "freedom" you're welcome to it.

http://www.onenewspage.us/n/US/7509ayzyf/Average-School-Shootings-In-2014-One-Every-Other.htm

Crime figures here released yesterday the lowest in 32 years. But it's not as low as we think.

[FGS5635]

Actually, Paul, I do acknowledge that the USA murder rate is higher than the UK rate. Mostly as we're a society which allows more freedom to our citizens. More freedom = more risk. More risk = more death.

What I'm getting at, in part, is that while the UK may have a lower murder rate than the USA, it's not as a low as you think. In fact, there are some indications your murder rate has risen despite the gun ban. So you have less freedom but that surrender of personal liberties didn't necessarily garner you much in the way of safety.

The population rises steadily year on year, so common sense says the murder rate will rise also

[Steve Moss]

The population rises steadily year on year, so common sense says the murder rate will rise also

Population rising doesn't effect the murder rate, at least not directly. The murder rate for any given country is x per 100,000. Population may have a more direct impact on the total murders committed.

In 2012, the USA murder rate is 4.7 per 100,000. The UK murder rate is 1.2 per 100,000, at least officially. Here's a comparative link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Keep in mind that your bean counters admitted in a parliamentary report that your murder rate is actually higher than reported. Per a buried footnote they estimated it was 10-15% low. IMO, that is likely understated as: 1) they are bureaucrats gave a range instead of a number; 2) declared it an estimate; and, 3) have played games with their crime data in the past. In my experience, if a bureaucrat wants to undersell a point, they give a low "estimated" range which gives them plenty of cover when it is later determined to be much higher.

One of the likely places your real murder rate could be determined would be a review of your coroner's narrative verdicts, of which there were only around a hundred such verdicts 12 years ago and which have now jumped to around four thousand. Most of these are probably suicides, but not all.

[thenodrog]

The population rises steadily year on year, so common sense says the murder rate will rise also

Unfortunately common sense is often a stranger on ICBINF FG.

[jim mk2]

Po

One of the likely places your real murder rate could be determined would be a review of your coroner's narrative verdicts, of which there were only around a hundred such verdicts 12 years ago and which have now jumped to around four thousand. Most of these are probably suicides, but not all.

Source ?

Going back to this picture Steve.

Now I know you like guns and if you want to die in a hail of bullets on your next trip to the "mall" that's up to you but aren't you worried about your weight ?

[yoda]

I see the reduction in crime here is being part linked to the removal of lead in petrol (after a 15 year delay), are the yanks still using it in gasoline?

[Stuart]

Going back to this picture Steve.

Now I know you like guns and if you want to die in a hail of bullets on your next trip to the "mall" that's up to you but aren't you worried about your weight ?

Jim gets personal once again.

Very poor, yet very much par.

[jim mk2]

....and some fell on stony ground.

[Stuart]

Well that's disapproved my point.

[yoda]

Well that's disapproved my point.

maybe to much lead in his pencil

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline

[jim mk2]

Well that's disapproved my point.

Good point. What is your point ?

[Stuart]

Pointless telling you.

(Are we going to do this much longer, you're boring me).