[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Steve Moss]

I suppose this woman should have just allowed herself to be sexually assaulted again, according to the logic of some: http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/2013/woman-in-her-60s-fights-off-attacker,-the-kansas-city-star,-kansas-city,-mo-111413.aspx?s=&st=&ps

And here's a long list of incidents of lawful firearm use to deter criminals- http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

And here's an article citing to statistics that those who use a firearm to protect themselves are less likely to be injured than those choosing other strategies- http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/06/25/study-using-guns-for-defense-leads-to-fewer-injuries

But, in Merry Olde England, I suppose its preferable to hand over both your property and dignity as opposed to putting a bullet in the scum intending to take both from you.

Here's a decent recitation of pro and cons for the use of guns- http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

[Audax]

What about the personal freedom to live?

Ingrained my arse, do what you have always done and you get what you have always got

Donovan had/has a solution

He's five foot two and he's six feet four

He fights with missiles and with spears

He's all of thirty-one and he's only seventeen

Been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain

A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew

And he knows he shouldn't kill and he knows he always will

Kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada

He's fighting for France, he's fighting for the U.S.A.

And he's fighting for the Russians

And he's fighting for Japan

And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy, he's fighting for the Reds

He says "It's for the peace of all"

He's the one who must decide, who's to live and who's to die

And he never sees the writing on the wall

But without him

How would Hitler have condemned him at Labau?

Without him Caesar would have stood alone

He's the one who gives his body as a weapon of the war

And without him all this killing can't go on

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame

His orders come from far away no more

They come from here and there and you and me

And brothers can't you see

This is not the way we put the end to war

ie no killers, no dead

Off Topic:

Per that song, interesting, 100 years ago World War I started if I have that correct. The war everyone knows a lot about to me seems WWII, the heroes, the villains.

But I've read up on World War I some, The Somme, Le Somme in Belgium France. That was an unbelievable bloody battle and the poem reminded me of it.

To all, I was thinking of trying to start up a World War I thread to discuss the "Great War". Just wasn't sure in what terms to couch it, perhaps I will as the anniversary gets closer. Looks like the War started in the summer of 1914.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Somme

Saw the movie "Joyeux Noel", what a flick. Okay, rant over.

------------

Back to gun control, what about the right to live?

I heard they collected some people's guns in Munich in the 1930s.

[dave birch]

Who are we, living our lives outside the USA, to complain about their laws and "customs'. If they want it the way they have it, it's their problem, not mine, nor yours.

I would object if they imposed their will upon me, so I suspect that Steve is getting a little bit back on the "assault" he's put up with.

It's his country, they'll decide which way things go, and all the bleating from around the world will not make one iota of difference.

ps, I could never live in the US for many of the reasons stated in many posts, but, for some reason, my daughter loves it, particularly NY.

[Stuart]

Any examples to back up your hyperboly?

I think I just heard your mum cringe.

[thenodrog]

Who are we, living our lives outside the USA, to complain about their laws and "customs'. If they want it the way they have it, it's their problem, not mine, nor yours.

I would object if they imposed their will upon me, so I suspect that Steve is getting a little bit back on the "assault" he's put up with.

It's his country, they'll decide which way things go, and all the bleating from around the world will not make one iota of difference.

ps, I could never live in the US for many of the reasons stated in many posts, but, for some reason, my daughter loves it, particularly NY.

Quite right Dave. A point I've made frequently. Imagine the short shrift that we'd give to assorted foreigners for pontificating about our laws from the other side of the globe.

I must admit the prospect of defending yourself properly and effectively against some scroat/scroats who has broken into your property with the sole intent to rob/injure/rape as Tony martin did with impunity does have some appeal. Especially in light of the ridiculous 'reasonable force' issue.

[T.J.Newton]

Well thete free to protect therir famlies and their land/property by any means for obe thing.

[ABBEY]

Well thete free to protect therir famlies and their land/property by any means for obe thing.

?

[thenodrog]

A birthday honour from the queen tj? And that's after you've edited it!

[T.J.Newton]

I just dont think guns are the reap issue, just an eady excuse

[dave birch]

Beat me to it, Theno.

TJ, you edited that! Care to let us know what the original was?

It's about 9am in Blackburn, isn't it?

On the phone doing it TJ?

[T.J.Newton]

Cant remember, I was probably just correcting a spelling or somat(still missef a few mind)

[dave birch]

TJ, just get smaller fingers or a bigger phone

[T.J.Newton]

I think best thing is if I just leave the subject, as I know not what I say

[Tom]

Well thete free to protect therir famlies and their land/property by any means for obe thing.

You are going to need more than that to back up the ridiculous point you made

Plus it's probably not even true these days, many people have been prosecuted for it I think

[T.J.Newton]

Oooh you tyrant.

[ABBEY]

Another shooting .. Hawaii this time

I love America and the people but f me they are insane .

Get rid of your guns you idiots

[T.J.Newton]

has anybody on here actually given any suggestions to how America could go about disarming its citizens without A. all the good sensible people giving up their weapons whilst criminals & nutjobs will still have access B. causing a civil war on some scale.

[K-Hod]

It's too far gone to disarm, but gun control should definitely be better, far too many incidents happening where lives are lost that are so avoidable.

[FGS5635]

has anybody on here actually given any suggestions to how America could go about disarming its citizens without A. all the good sensible people giving up their weapons whilst criminals & nutjobs will still have access B. causing a civil war on some scale.

Look to the future and make all guns need licensing that are purchased from now forward. Set guidlines for who can and who cant own them. It may take a generation to take effect, but its better than sitting back and doing nothing for decades becasue it 'to late/hard' to do it now

[T.J.Newton]

there's already millions of guns out there and if they are looked after right, then theoretically they could outlast generations of people.

[Audax]

Looked up this Hawaiian shooting,doesn't look like anyone got killed. http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/officer-shot-boy-in-wrist-at-hawaii-school-police The young man, sounds like a runaway and from what I'm reading, it looks like the youth did NOT have a gun. The youth got shot from bandying a knife.

Anyway, I would wager that most 35 year olds and older and maybe a little younger are going to be responsible with a gun.

A lot of the crimes seem to be the 19 year olds, younger and maybe a little older who shoot others, shoot each other. I don't know if the whole of society should be punished if they don't know how to act.

But I'm not sure what can be done to lessen the violence between youth and their abuse with guns.

[ultrablue]

The simple fact is that, come campaign time, gun control is not a vote winner, but it certainly is a vote loser.

Closing an obvious loophole in the federal law where a background check is not required if you buy your weapon at a gun show had almost universal support including that of the NRA (until the financial crisis scared them). Yet it didnt pass because, for the most part, gun control would be political suicide for so many in the House. And yes partly because it wouldn't make an overall impact in the rate of crimes involving guns.

But that is the sad thing, the Wild West mentality along with the huge disparity between state gun control laws means that the good guy vs. bad guy narrative will always prevail and gun control will continue to lose you votes. As long as you have routinely armed criminals, the majority will reserve the right to be armed.

http://www.cagv.org/understanding_firearms.htm

If you want to learn more about gun traffiking in the US read this. Very interesting.

[ultrablue]

Double post

[Audax]

The simple fact is that, come campaign time, gun control is not a vote winner, but it certainly is a vote loser.

Closing an obvious loophole in the federal law where a background check is not required if you buy your weapon at a gun show had almost universal support including that of the NRA (until the financial crisis scared them). Yet it didnt pass because, for the most part, gun control would be political suicide for so many in the House. And yes partly because it wouldn't make an overall impact in the rate of crimes involving guns.

But that is the sad thing, the Wild West mentality along with the huge disparity between state gun control laws means that the good guy vs. bad guy narrative will always prevail and gun control will continue to lose you votes. As long as you have routinely armed criminals, the majority will reserve the right to be armed.

http://www.cagv.org/understanding_firearms.htm

If you want to learn more about gun traffiking in the US read this. Very interesting.

Ultra, you definitely bring up some important issues here.

I wonder if many "guns show" purchased firearms have been involved in many crimes, period, mass shootings etc. I know there was a story where a gun discharged at a gunshow, someone got hurt but it would be interesting to see if statistically those weapons can be tied to crimes.

Those "straw purchasers" I heard happen on the border with Mexico too at gun shops in order to "gun run", get guns INTO Mexico.

[FGS5635]

there's already millions of guns out there and if they are looked after right, then theoretically they could outlast generations of people.

Maybe stage it. All new weapons from x date need licensing. Once the system is in place and doing its job, make people license their older weapons by certain dates. If they are not licensed they are illegal.

Its a slow process and will take years and wont fully work, but its better than nothing and with commitment from goverment etc it will eventually breed results and maybe 1 day be the answer