[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Audax]

Today's Daily USA Shooting....http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/person-shot-in-parking-lot-on-indys-east-side

I wouldn't care to camouflage the problems in the USA, some businesses in usually so-called rougher areas can get robbed fairly often, I guess the genie is already out of the bottle. Unfortunate but so.

[Audax]

duplicate post

[Steve Moss]

The 9th Circuit, widely regarded as the most liberal of the federal appellate courts, has held that California's requirement that a citizen show "good cause" to receive a concealed weapon permit is unconstitutional.

Here's the link- http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/12/1056971.pdf

Short summary- As applied to a typical, mainstream, law abiding citizen, a State can ban concealed carry and a State can ban open carry, but a State cannot ban both open and concealed carry. Any prohibition, effective either because of the clear text of the law or its practical implementation, violates an individual person's fundamental, natural right of self-defense.

This decision creates a conflict among the federal circuits and makes it very likely the US Supreme Court will take it for review.

[yoda]

Not directly connected to this debate but, well make you own minds up

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/15/newser-earth-circles-sun/5508413/

[Steve Moss]

Ah yes, the ignorant American ploy.

But despite out alleged ignorance we're still masters of our own destiny. By contrast 70% of your laws are "co-decided" by the EU.

[Audax]

As long as we are going off-topic, I didn't want to start a new thread on it because I felt it was bound to get a few guffaws but as a news story it is interesting... and in this case, it's not an American but an Australian debating I believe creationism but the interesting thing is, I'm sure people heard about it is that even "neutral" news sources say the "young-Earth Creationist" got the better of the debate.

The "young earth creationist" being Ken Ham. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Ham

The debater on the other side, Bill Nye, the science guy.

I'm not too familiar with these people, only read about it. Looks like the wikipedia article gives footnotes dealing with this for anyone interested.

This just happened in the past 2-3 weeks.

[Mike E]

There was a question along the lines of 'What would persuade you to alter/change your opinion?'

Ken Ham: 'Nothing'.
Bill Nighy: 'Evidence'.

[ultrablue]

Ah yes, the ignorant American ploy.

But despite out alleged ignorance we're still masters of our own destiny. By contrast 70% of your laws are "co-decided" by the EU.

Well you would be "masters of your own destiny" if only The Man in Washington would back off and stop taking your money and spending it on things like food, education and healthcare for low income families. If the feds just left you all alone the market would provide for all, right?

[jim mk2]

Not directly connected to this debate but, well make you own minds up

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/15/newser-earth-circles-sun/5508413/

So where does this ignorance come from ? Perhaps it's partly owing to the fact that only 21 per cent of Americans own a passport, so the majority of them haven't a clue what's going on outside their own borders. England - is that in London? Americans are ignorant not because they are stupid but because most of them are small minded and have never travelled beyond their own locale. They are scared of the world and fear what lies in the next state, never mind the next country. It probably explains why they are obsessed with gun ownership - if you live in a constant state of fear you will feel the need to defend yourself from the guy who looks at you the wrong way. It must be awful to be an American.

[yoda]

So where does this ignorance come from ? Perhaps it's partly owing to the fact that only 21 per cent of Americans own a passport, so the majority of them haven't a clue what's going on outside their own borders. England - is that in London? Americans are ignorant not because they are stupid but because most of them are small minded and have never travelled beyond their own locale. They are scared of the world and fear what lies in the next state, never mind the next country. It probably explains why they are obsessed with gun ownership - if you live in a constant state of fear you will feel the need to defend yourself from the guy who looks at you the wrong way. It must be awful to be an American.

@#/?, that's 314 million dingles!

[Audax]

Maybe the elephant in the room is this, unfortunately a lot of it is down to demographics in the USA,

Note this article regarding Fernando Mateo, a Hispanic himself:

The head of a New York taxi driver organization came under fire on Wednesday for suggesting that cab drivers should racially profile passengers before picking them up to help avoid getting attacked.

The controversial remarks by Fernando Mateo, president of the New York State Federation of Taxi Drivers, came after livery cab driver Trevor Bell was shot and wounded by a passenger last week.

Police say they are seeking a suspect in the attack described as a Hispanic male wearing a hooded sweatshirt. The driver remains in critical condition at a New York hospital.

Racial profiling addresses "a controversial reality that the people committing most of the crimes against drivers are Hispanics and blacks," said Mateo, who is of black and Hispanic origin.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/08/us-taxis-race-idUSTRE6B76M020101208

It's an uncomfortable reality, take out the crimes committed by some minorities and you probably have a relatively low crime rate. These percentages are likewise confirmed by prison populations, percent of crimes committed by some minorities and so on.

Sure, people of all colors and creeds commit crimes but the percentages still show that those who commit crimes is largely weighted towards certain minorities in the USA.

I think in speaking about gun control, this factor might be considered this as well.

[yoda]

Ah yes, the ignorant American ploy.

But despite out alleged ignorance we're still masters of our own destiny. By contrast 70% of your laws are "co-decided" by the EU.

Head in sand

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26222578

explain that away

[Steve Moss]

Head in sand

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26222578

explain that away

What's to explain? Missouri's murder rate has increased when it repealed its law requiring a permit to buy a handgun. By contrast, the murder rate in the rest of the USA has decreased despite reducing burdens on firearm ownership and carrying.

http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2014/02/17/whats_the_matter_with_the_missouri_murder_rate_841.html

So Missouri is an interesting anomaly. Why it is the way it is, I don't know (though I could be facetious and argue what else would you expect from the home state of Jesse James and Cole Younger).

But the right to carry a weapon concealed has greatly expanded and the murder rate has dropped. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/02/17/growth-chart-of-right-to-carry/

[Steve Moss]

Variety magazine is making the case that Piers Morgan's plummeting ratings have to do with his anti-gun tirades. I disagree. I personally think his poor ratings are more likely the result of Piers being "an unbelievably stupid man".

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/ratings-is-cnns-piers-morgan-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-1201114239/

[thenodrog]

Not sure I'd suggest he was stupid although putting our soldiers in danger by printing a fake picture of someone in army fatigues pissing on a random jakraqui was not only stupid but malicious. I'd prefer to refer to him as 'Thrush'.

[thenodrog]

They were interviewing a few on the radio today re: Kiev.

There was a nurse / doctor saying that casualties brought in were usually dead or dying as the govt snipers were very professional and were hitting people mainly in the neck, lungs and heart.

The next chap I heard was saying (and I find this quite difficult to believe given that the Ukraine was part of the USSR and the Russians do seem well able to manufacture some excellent weaponry of their own) in total accusatory fashion that the govt forces are using British made sniper rifles and that we ought to do something about it! Well deary me! If that is to be believed then what tf are we supposed to do? "Sorry Ivan you've been a very naughty boys.... you've been using those snipers rifles you bought off us too.......err..... snipe!

[Guest Norbert]

Variety magazine is making the case that Piers Morgan's plummeting ratings have to do with his anti-gun tirades. I disagree. I personally think his poor ratings are more likely the result of Piers being "an unbelievably stupid man".

http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/ratings-is-cnns-piers-morgan-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-1201114239/

I do agree with you on that Steve. He's a right tit, and has finally been found out over there. There's a reason he can't edit newspapers any more, and not just because of the fake pictures.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/743843.stm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QfW58Efcck

[Baz]

Variety magazine is making the case that Piers Morgan's plummeting ratings have to do with his anti-gun tirades. I disagree. I personally think his poor ratings are more likely the result of Piers being "an unbelievably stupid man".http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/ratings-is-cnns-piers-morgan-shooting-himself-in-the-foot-1201114239/

Piers is definitely not stupid. He's a horrid, self-serving, loathsome person, but he's not stupid.

[yoda]

This is what you call stupid

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26250162

[Audax]

http://www.twincities.com/breakingnews/ci_25215611/texas-dad-facing-charges-after-son-4-shot

33 year old father under influence of alcohol was cleaning gun which accidentally discharged wounding his 4 year old.

[Guest Norbert]

What a tool. What kind of idiot cleans a gun when they're off their box anyway, let alone when a 4 year old is about?

Today is probably not the best day to be all superior to our American friends:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-26324683

[ABBEY]

i dont care if they are in UK, USA or the moon..GUNS ARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LOSERS

[Steve Moss]

Piers Morgan apparently has lost his show, after failing to "connect" with the American viewing public: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/02/24/business/media/piers-morgan-and-cnn-plan-end-to-his-prime-time-show.html?referrer=

Meanwhile, Americans are largely ignoring Connecticut's gun and magazine registration laws: http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/23/license-plates-guns-news-federal-government-column/5759933/

Here's a partial quote:

"Meanwhile, in Connecticut a massive new gun-registration scheme is also facing civil disobedience. As J.D. Tuccille reports: "Three years ago, the Connecticut legislature estimated there were 372,000 rifles in the state of the sort that might be classified as 'assault weapons,' and 2 million plus high-capacity magazines. ... But by the close of registration at the end of 2013, state officials received around 50,000 applications for 'assault weapon' registrations, and 38,000 applications for magazines.

This is more "Irish Democracy," passive resistance to government overreach. TheHartford (Conn.) Courant is demanding that the state use background-check records to prosecute those who haven't registered, but the state doesn't have the resources and it's doubtful juries would convict ordinary, law-abiding people for failure to file some paperwork."

I keep thinking about my NCO course, and how one should never give an order you know won't be obeyed. I think a few of our news commentators and elected representatives should maybe factor some variant of that rule into their thinking.

[riverkiller]

i dont care if they are in UK, USA or the moon..GUNS ARE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LOSERS

Soldiers ???

[Mike E]

Farmers?