[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[ABBEY]

Gangs, bikers and otherwise, have been killing each other ever since they invented the concept of "gangs".

I remember stories of Milo and Clodius, and their followers, slaughtering each other as far back as the Roman Republic.

That's what happens when criminals vie to GUNS control territory.

[ultrablue]

Gangs, bikers and otherwise, have been killing each other ever since they invented the concept of "gangs".

I remember stories of Milo and Clodius, and their followers, slaughtering each other as far back as the Roman Republic.

That's what happens when criminals vie to control territory.

Sorry Steve but that's an awfully dismissive way to look at the fact that 9 people were shot dead and 17 injured in a public area in broad daylight.

[ABBEY]

2 likes now .. Means nowt tho

[Steve Moss]

Abbey,

Did you seriously edit my post to read "GUNS control territory"?

It may strike some as odd, by a firearm is an inanimate object. It does not think, decide or act.

[Tom]

9 dead outside a church, absolutely sickening.

Looks to be race related, it's in South Carolina one of the redneck States in the south.

[ultrablue]

Reports say it took place inside the church. Absolutely despicable.

I've visited Charleston several times when I was working in neighbouring North Carolina. The city and the state are wonderful. The people are warm and welcoming.

This does seem to be a nailed on racist hate crime. Let's hope calm heads rule and Charleston can remain the fantastic city on the up it has become in the last decade or so.

The suspect, by the way, is still at large.

[Tom]

Arrested now

He got a gun for his birthday, Jesus wept

[jim mk2]

Why are you surprised ? This is the US, after all. Such behaviour is normal and encouraged. Outrages like this will continue to happen.

[yoda]

Obama has said this today,

''will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries".

perhaps he should have said

''will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other countries".

then they might make progress on the issue

[perthblue02]

Interesting that the shooting in the Church in South Carolina has produced a campaign to get the confederate flag pulled from sale in a number of shops, one being wal-mart were you can still buy a gun.

There's me thinking that the people were actually shot and not suffocated by a flag. American logic I suppose ban a flag that the shooter appeared in a couple of pictures with but do nothing about the firearms that he was pictured with in a lot more pictures.

[Mike E]

Obama has said this today,

''will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries".

perhaps he should have said

''will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other countries".

then they might make progress on the issue

It happens in other countries all the time, we just don't get it in our papers.

He was right to say 'other advanced countries' imo.

[Dreyski]

Interesting that the shooting in the Church in South Carolina has produced a campaign to get the confederate flag pulled from sale in a number of shops, one being wal-mart were you can still buy a gun.

There's me thinking that the people were actually shot and not suffocated by a flag. American logic I suppose ban a flag that the shooter appeared in a couple of pictures with but do nothing about the firearms that he was pictured with in a lot more pictures.

I suspect it has more to do with what that flag represents. Imagine if Germany started flying the Nazi flag on government buildings. (For the record, I don't think it should be pulled from sale, just from all Government/public buildings.)

[ultrablue]

After all the negative stories on this thread about America and guns, it would only be right to point out when they get it right over there. So here's to Justices Sotomayor, Kagan, Bader Ginsburg, Kennedy and Breyer- for making marriage equal and showing that love always wins.

[rebelmswar]

Interesting that the shooting in the Church in South Carolina has produced a campaign to get the confederate flag pulled from sale in a number of shops, one being wal-mart were you can still buy a gun.

There's me thinking that the people were actually shot and not suffocated by a flag. American logic I suppose ban a flag that the shooter appeared in a couple of pictures with but do nothing about the firearms that he was pictured with in a lot more pictures.

I suspect it has more to do with what that flag represents. Imagine if Germany started flying the Nazi flag on government buildings. (For the record, I don't think it should be pulled from sale, just from all Government/public buildings.)

I begin this with trepidation, but in all honestly with the life that I have had, I have, and had, known more about people from this forum than anyone in 'real' life - and have, had, known them for longer.

Regardless of knowing each other, we also don't. I don't have to look you in the eye or bump into you in the street. If you have, and you have, you would never have known, nor will.

So this is like a diary that can call me a @#/? and that's comforting in a way. Some may not think I'm a @#/?. Can I say @#/? anymore?

I have often thought of this forum when I have been all over the world breathing all manner of nasty ass air and running like Mr. Bolt when impotent politics turn our claws into mittens. It's like home, its where I come back to when things are better and quieter.

The world is a nasty place.

Luckily we live in countries which are much like being locked in your room, under the blankies, knowing mum and dad are downstairs.

I delight in the fact that we are free to call the providers of freedom filth. I smile every time I have been spat on, I sit on hallowed grounds in Normandy besides a Ranger with my very name and read a paper calling me a racist. I sit on a train and stare at a gay guy with gauges wearing a USSR Shirt reading the Koran with dirty hands and laugh.

I agree with the waitress who says that we should never have gone over there as I rub the scar on my cheek.

I remember her face and the muzzle flash and I hear her mother's screeching every day as I kick the AK47 out of her daughters still twitching hand.

Such things cause trouble in my mind.

We justify, and we know it was her or my kids having to deal with something I couldn't imagine. This goes through your mind as that weapon comes up - there is time to chose to die instead of her, always.

Am I a murder?

My God says yes and His Son heavily implied it. Most of you say yes. Society says yes.

I say yes because I know that it is sin but I am able to sleep as I sin so my family and my country do not have to.

Justification works as a crutch but it's a mighty one. I don't know what I would be if I did not know in my heart that what I do is so people in my country, and many countries I care deeply about, never have to see, know, or do what I do.

I have killed and bled and seen such horror for this alter with all its beautiful freedoms we all enjoy and every time I return home a freedom has been taken from me. I have shot at people just so other people can waive the flag of their choice. I have sent people to oblivion, countless, because they would not let someone pray. I have sinned so people dont have to pray.

Why? I honestly no longer know.

How can a man kill for freedoms no longer guaranteed?

That is why I cried like a baby next to that Rangers grave last week. An old French man asked what was wrong and I showed him the headline about the Confederate Flag, he didn't understand, it was nice of him anyway. Wonder where he was when Whoever from Alabama took a bullet and was buried thousands of miles away from Mobile - No one ever visits him - So that kind man didn't have to live under a swastika, or to tattoo it on his forehead, if he chose afterward. I would kiss him on it. The fact that they becray a symbol and call it by a wrong name makes it worse. It is NOT the Confederate Flag, you can read all about it whenever you want.

That's freedom, that's what I was willing to die for.

I am willing to die for two dudes or gals getting married, I don't care if they do, just do it constitutionally. I would spend my men dearly for every minute they need to be married and then cover the wedding train on its departure. I don't agree with it, it's against what I believe in, but I believe that you are free to do what you will and I will die to ensure that. My sister in law is a lesbian, I love her, I would give her my heart. I don't approve and such thoughts I find distasteful but that is my choice as it is hers to tell me. She finds the thought of a man and a woman rather nasty too, is she nohomosexualphobe? I tell her her hat looks gay. She calls me a fag. We love each other anyway, that's freedom.

I will stand in front of a man calling me a damn cracker, because he thinks I'm a cop, to protect him from a redneck calling him a nigger.

I will die for both of them, repeatedly so they can call each other what they will.

I have watched people die for all of those things in other countries. I have bagged babies after bombings so mine may never know death.

That's freedom.

Freedom sucks at times but by God its better than what's out there.

[Stuart]

Reb's awesome post

That's one of the most honest, raw, beautiful, inspiring posts things I've ever had the privilege to read.

Thank you for sharing.

I'm minded of a lyric from the Josh Garrels track Farther Along:

"Tempted and tried, I wondered why

The good man died, the bad man thrives

And Jesus cries because he loves 'em both

We're all cast-aways in need of rope

Hangin' on by the last threads of our hope

In a house of mirrors full of smoke

Confusing illusions I've seen"

The rest of the song is pretty good to if anyone's interested:

http://songmeanings.com/m/songs/view/3530822107858872924/

[Guest]

Interesting that the shooting in the Church in South Carolina has produced a campaign to get the confederate flag pulled from sale in a number of shops, one being wal-mart were you can still buy a gun.

There's me thinking that the people were actually shot and not suffocated by a flag. American logic I suppose ban a flag that the shooter appeared in a couple of pictures with but do nothing about the firearms that he was pictured with in a lot more pictures.

Dealing with "the right to bear arms" is a Constitutional change, something that I guess is tricky and controversial to deal with. Perhaps Steve Moss can comment on that one, but I suspect we don't realise the magnitude of altering a Constitution that was never intended to be altered. However, if the Catholic church can evolve, why can't America? Perhaps we will never understand, since we don't have a constitution of our own.

What a shame that such a cool-looking flag is a genuine symbol of hate towards black people and a desire to return to oppressive times of old (white supremacy). If you look at the recent history of who uses this flag and why they use it, then I'm not surprised that the flag outside the Town Hall is being removed. I'm surprised that the flag is allowed to fly in any official capacity in the first place.

[rebelmswar]

Dealing with "the right to bear arms" is a Constitutional change, something that I guess is tricky and controversial to deal with. Perhaps Steve Moss can comment on that one, but I suspect we don't realise the magnitude of altering a Constitution that was never intended to be altered. However, if the Catholic church can evolve, why can't America? Perhaps we will never understand, since we don't have a constitution of our own.

What a shame that such a cool-looking flag is a genuine symbol of hate towards black people and a desire to return to oppressive times of old (white supremacy). If you look at the recent history of who uses this flag and why they use it, then I'm not surprised that the flag outside the Town Hall is being removed. I'm surprised that the flag is allowed to fly in any official capacity in the first place.

I

Please tell me how the flag being discussed is a symbol of hate and the Union Jack under which they were shipped is not?

Please also tell me the date on which any SOUTHERN state found it legal to import slaves.

Please tell me which states were the ones that banned importation of slaves.

Please tell me when slavery even became the "cause" of the Union army

Please tell me the Southern Officers who owned, or agreed, with slavery

Please tell me how many of the soldiers that died under that flag had even laid eyes on a slave.

Which was the state that gave all of the Midwest to the United States only with the express concern that slavery was not ever allowed in the territory.

Please tell me how the US Flag under which entire races were hunted and exterminated, utilizing bayonets to children throats as it was cheaper, is not a flag of hate.

Please tell me how the St George Cross is not a symbol of hate to Muslims who were being exterminated by the bushel under it.

Please tell me how many slaves exterminated or blacks or northern homes touched under the "Confederate Flag" of hate

Please tell me which states were burned black by the Union Army and slaves shot upon resistance.

Please tell me how many blacks served freely and died under the "Confederate Flag"

Please tell me which states were still utilizing slave labor for the Northern Industries. (Even though it was a war to free slaves and after the war when it was illegal in the south)

Please tell me which state most of the slave ships were registered and operated out of.

Why can a deranged white guy mow people down outside a cinema saying batman is the cause and no one calls for movie violence to end or the Batman symbol removed?

Why can you still buy jihadist flags when that is CURRENT hate?

But a flag that he owned is the cause and not being a racist moron that should of been shot on capture.

[Guest]

I'll answer your first point. Britain evolved with the times, which is why it still exists today. The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of desire to return to an alternate universe version of America - and a dark one. Incidentally, its battle flag came into popularity when the Civil Rights movement came about in America in the 60s. Flying in the face of equal rights, most notably used by the Ku Klux Clan.

I don't even know what to say to your other questions. They certainly have nothing to do with what I was pointing out in my other post, so hopefully someone else will be happy to entertain them.

[Stuart]

Sadly, Reb, for most of our hand-wringers the Union Flag is viewed as a symbol of hate.

The trick to steal it back from the minority of haters but we haven't worked out how yet.

Sadly, in the UK, we are only 'allowed' to have national pride when there's a Royal wedding/birth or for a fortnight in July. Any other occasion and you will be accused of racism. I guess we need minorities who value what this country has to offer them should stand up for it.

In some ways I envy the U.S. on this subject, as a general rule (granted, it's from the outside looking in) people of all colours, faiths and creeds seem to stand up for the star-spangled banner. I guess Southern folk will see things slightly differently though?

As an aside, the first thing I think of when I see the Confederate Flag is The Dukes Of Hazard. Must be my age!

[rebelmswar]

I'll answer your first point. Britain evolved with the times, which is why it still exists today. The Confederate battle flag is a symbol of desire to return to an alternate universe version of America - and a dark one. Incidentally, its battle flag came into popularity when the Civil Rights movement came about in America in the 60s. Flying in the face of equal rights, most notably used by the Ku Klux Clan.

I don't even know what to say to your other questions. They certainly have nothing to do with what I was pointing out in my other post, so hopefully someone else will be happy to entertain them.

Notice which political leaning throws condescension first as always.

Rubbish, evolved with times. Since when is removal of freedoms evolution? That's devolution.

By that rational the Union Jack and St George Cross is a symbol to return the Jews to the ovens and to an alternate world where Aryans rule supreme and our colored cousins are sent home - one that actually happened and as dark as midnight. As opposed to this, every Southerner had a slave and fought to keep such, fantasy that is belived. Before preaching about the Battle Flag people should ask themselves which country is electing Nazis to public office. Incidentally that is a lie, the thing was invented in 1861 and it is on every grave in the cemeteries and state flags and that was the 1890's. That is just nonsense recited from some copy reading hack.

The questions had everything to do with it because you are reciting news speak and not history. Just because it is varnished doesn't make it true. You are saying that the entire aim was to spread slavery when every southern state was trying to give them away. The Missouri fall out was because they could not bring servents in to the new state when visiting - they all voted against the spread of slavery and importation of negros. It was nothing to do with the expansion of slavery. That was only tossed out when the North had a vivtory in the Eastern theater of note so the European question would go away.

Always the moral high ground is the easiest to take when the premise is faulty - easy to defend from the lofty perch where facts are ignored due to distance.

[rebelmswar]

Sadly, Reb, for most of our hand-wringers the Union Flag is viewed as a symbol of hate.

The trick to steal it back from the minority of haters but we haven't worked out how yet.

Sadly, in the UK, we are only 'allowed' to have national pride when there's a Royal wedding/birth or for a fortnight in July. Any other occasion and you will be accused of racism. I guess we need minorities who value what this country has to offer them should stand up for it.

In some ways I envy the U.S. on this subject, as a general rule (granted, it's from the outside looking in) people of all colours, faiths and creeds seem to stand up for the star-spangled banner. I guess Southern folk will see things slightly differently though?

As an aside, the first thing I think of when I see the Confederate Flag is The Dukes Of Hazard. Must be my age!

You ignore the minority of idiots, they go away. Forcing issues is what causes problems. You start to read about the real ideals and beliefs that make countries stand the test of time.

Do I hate slavery, hell yes I do, and the correct side won. That is not the point, the point is that most people are quite happy to forever lose a freedom to be momentary right in the public eye.

If you look at the facts it has as much to do with the Battle Flag than it does the US Flag - its only what the people that view the item that gives it the power. I laugh when I see those ghosts running around with that flag, they would throw up in their hoods if they read the confederate Constitution - those bigoted idiots don't like Catholics, Jews, anyone really.

Destruction of national pride is always the first step of empire building - always beware of those who say you can't look at something. Southerners are some of the most patriotic in the country, they have the Battle Flag flying below the US one. They know they were wrong, they got their ass kicked, but there we go. It's like the Lion Rampant and just look at how many English lassies were raped under that flag. Should we put it away too?

That's the first thing I think of too, before all this stupidity of erasing history. I'm sure the General Lee was roaring around with black bodies in the trunk.

[Stuart]

You ignore the minority of idiots, they go away. Forcing issues is what causes problems. You start to read about the real ideals and beliefs that make countries stand the test of time.

A couple of dozen idiots burning the national flag.

Far right wing Facebook pages with it as their masthead.

A few old ladies and children waving plastic ones at Wimbledon.

The flag itself isn't the problem, it's what the flag represents. Actually no, it's what the flag is perceived to represent by people who benefit from a divided society. When people don't get along they buy more stuff. Advertisers sell more. Commercially funded news stations generate more revenue.

Social cohesion failing means big bucks.

[rebelmswar]

A couple of dozen idiots burning the national flag.

Far right wing Facebook pages with it as their masthead.

The flag itself isn't the problem, it's what the flag represents. Actually no, it's what the flag is perceived to represent by people who benefit from a divided society. When people don't get along they buy more stuff. Advertisers sell more. Commercially funded news stations generate more revenue.

Social cohesion failing means big bucks.

Exactly, such an issue wouldnty have existed. Its easy to get a hundred thousand to say the skys yellow when your contacting hundreds of millions.

The flag only represents what you allow it to.

Notice lack of calls for action after Tunisian horror.

[Stuart]

http://news.sky.com/story/1513317/flag-backlash-means-paint-job-for-hazzard-car

[Amo]

http://news.sky.com/story/1513317/flag-backlash-means-paint-job-for-hazzard-car

All men are created equal... therefore I'm painting over it to conform to public opinion.