[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Steve Moss]

perhaps he should have said

''will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other countries".

then they might make progress on the issue

Mass murder occurs all over the world, including the UK, both with and without guns. There is nothing uniquely American about it.

Dealing with "the right to bear arms" is a Constitutional change, something that I guess is tricky and controversial to deal with. Perhaps Steve Moss can comment on that one, but I suspect we don't realise the magnitude of altering a Constitution that was never intended to be altered. However, if the Catholic church can evolve, why can't America? Perhaps we will never understand, since we don't have a constitution of our own.

What a shame that such a cool-looking flag is a genuine symbol of hate towards black people and a desire to return to oppressive times of old (white supremacy). If you look at the recent history of who uses this flag and why they use it, then I'm not surprised that the flag outside the Town Hall is being removed. I'm surprised that the flag is allowed to fly in any official capacity in the first place.

There are two proper ways to amend the Constitution, through the States or through Congress. There is also the possibility of Supreme Court "interpretation", but that would pose serious problems to the viability of the Republic as the Second Amendment is frequently revered as much as the First.

The Confederate Battle Flag was never the/a Confederate National Flag(s). Despite this, many people consider the Confederate (originally the Army of Northern Virginia's) Battle Flag to be a symbol of hate. I suppose this makes a warped sense, if one is overly emotional or not very historical on the subject.

For example, General Lee (who commanded the Army of Northern Virginia) never owned a slave (though he served as executor of his father-in-law's estate, which did and freed them per his Will). General Grant was similar to General Lee, in that he never owned a slave and freed them when administering his father-in-law's estate. All in all, the top military leaders on both sides were pretty anti-slavery. With the politicians, it was a different story.

President Lincoln wanted to free slaves, didn't think blacks and whites could live together, and planned to ship the freed slaves back to Africa, Central America and the Caribbean, or grant a limited suffrage (only to those who fought for the Union). Jefferson Davis wasn't even partially enlightened and was very much in favor of slavery.

The war was billed as about slavery, but it's roots were economic. The North wanted high tariffs and federal railroad spending on westward expansion, which the South opposed. The North wanted to get rid of or limit slavery, which the political leadership of the South opposed as an attack on its economy/political power. In the main, the common soldier fought for the same reason they always fight, either because he had no choice (conscription) or he was defending their homes/states.

And for those who want to know my biases, I'm very pro-Union. Of my 4 known direct ancestors who fought in the Civil War, only one was a Confederate (he was a chaplain killed during the war). Of the other three, my direct paternal ancestor was a Union cavalry man (who survived unharmed), as were his brothers (one of whom was maimed). Of my other two Union ancestors , one was killed and the last maimed.

Which gets back to the Confederate Battle Flag, it's a symbol of hate to some (incorrectly, in my opinion), but is also a symbol of those who fought to defend their homes.

I don't see anything good coming from banning that particular flag.

Here's some quick articles on the subject, for those who are interested.

http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-history/

http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/30/confederate-history-slave-ownership/

http://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation)

[jim mk2]

Mass murder occurs all over the world, including the UK, both with and without guns. There is nothing uniquely American about it.

Don't drag Britain down to your level, please.

And your wonderful president disagrees.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/19/obama-believes-mass-violence-does-not-happen-in-other-advanced-countries/

However I would take issue with him on his wording. Instead of "advanced" he should have said "civilised".

But like most intelligent Americans at least he recognises that the US has a problem - which is a start.

The question is, how do you win over the unintelligent ones ?

[Steve Moss]

I don't think my president is "wonderful". I think he is naive, inexperienced, detached and not particularly effective.

If he expresses an opinion, the odds are 50/50 I'm headed the other direction.

I find it curious, Jim, that you are quick to condemn the USA but say nothing about Russian mass murderers. Or the Swiss, Norwegian, German, etc. One might think you have an agenda.

I'll make you a deal. You sort out the UK's mass child rape problem, and then we'll talk.

[jim mk2]

You said we have a "mass murder" probe, but now you change the goalposts and say we have "mass child rape" problem (evidence please?)

Sorry, but you're losing any credibility.

[Steve Moss]

Perhaps I have a credibility problem, that's for each person to decide, but I think it rather more likely that you have a bias and/or reading comprehension problem. Take your pick,

[jim mk2]

The thread is about gun law - suggesting you have a reading problem too. Yes. I'm biased against guns but then the citizens of most civilised countries are.

[Tom]

I read another forum frequently mainly frequented by Americans, it started out as a forum about video games but has a larger off topic section now to discuss all things.

In a nutshell these two unrelated posts by the same member sums up for me how dangerous the gun laws are:

'To me the various pistols and rifles have more individual characters than the shotguns, so I prefer shooting them as well.

Unfortunately I don't have much experience with pistols. Only shot my dad's glock 45, a huge 44 magnum revolver, and a 9mm.'

'

I believe that I am either insane, or that I've reached some level of sensitivity such that I perceive the general insanity of existing in human form. Even if the latter is the case, I'm unaware of what to do with such knowledge, which might as well be insanity in and of itself.'

[Steve Moss]

No, Tom M. You're just from a different culture. You might think it better, I might think it worse, but in the end it's just different.

I own about 5 pistols, 6 shotguns and 5 rifles of various sorts. A few I bought, two were gifted (my wife bought me an M1 Garand for my engagement present- I love her), most I inherited. I fire them all, frequently, but it isn't that big a deal. I started shooting very young with my great-grandfather. I've taken my children shooting since they were young, but so far I've kept them at the .22 caliber to make sure they master the basics of BRASS, sight alignment and picture. Their grandfather has bought them each a .243 bolt action and is biting at the bit to take them deer hunting which will likely happen soon.

People act like they're afraid of guns. I've never understood that. There is no danger, unless you point it at someone/thing and pull the trigger. It's an inert object.

[Tom]

So you don't think there's at least a small issue that someone thinking they may be mentally unstable can have such easy access to guns?

either way as much as we may disagree it's not for us ovwr here to say I suppose

[K-Hod]

The ease of access to guns is a concern. There was mention of a glock above! The thing is, why do people need to own heavy artillery for home defence?

A handgun to disable is fine enough, but why the need for such excessive force? This morbid curiosity with guns in the US is out of hand, and something needs to be done to stem the flow of guns into the wrong hands. I find it incredible that even if you discount 'the right to bear arms' that you think it's all good.....

[Guest]

Thanks for your insight, Steve.

We often say that people shouldn't be offended on behalf of others, but the evidence I've seen, from the unfortunate types who have adopted the Confederate battle flag as a complement to their hatred towards black people, to the protests by black people in front of the Town Hall against the flag being flown in an official capacity, plainly says to me that there is certainly something sinister in it. The objection to having that flag raised in an official capacity is something I agree with entirely.

[rebelmswar]

So you don't think there's at least a small issue that someone thinking they may be mentally unstable can have such easy access to guns?

either way as much as we may disagree it's not for us ovwr here to say I suppose

I am having a hard time adjusting to normality... the world is so alien to me.

Feeling that over 20 years of my life have been pointless. I also want to point out that I was a British subject until seven months ago.

I will never be able to quantify how I feel nor how anyone feels, or explain my thoughts adequately.

My great fear is the loss of ability to act without overt centralized government pressure. I feel that society should initiate changes when the populous is ready as a majority. I have been privy to ramming things down an entire societies throat before and it never ends well. We end up having to engage them too,

I asked so many questions as I am shocked how little people know of what they wish to change - both sides - and in horror that we can label one set of people so quickly and another not at all.

Weapons are killing machines and no one can lie or tell you different, yes they are inanimate objects, but their power is in intent and history with a splash of adverts. Nothing can simmer a situation quicker, or a escalate one faster. Nothing can ensure freedom or enslave an entire population better. Where do you draw the line? Its easier in a small country that is an island with like minded countries around. Having borders that span a continent and completely unmanageable creates nothing but problems of regulation etc. I have no problems changing things as long as it is done fairly to all groups along lawful measures in plain day. If the population voted to remove the right to bear arms and amended the Constitution, I would follow the law. Would bitch about it though. I will not have an unelected group create a law either - this is not allowed and is the exact wording on the document.

If Greece shows us nothing else it is that a strong central government is only as strong as the similarities that hold the group together. What is good for Alabama is not good for Massachusetts, nor what California believes jives with North Carolina. Centralization leads to totalitarianism and fascism as humans are weak for power.

If you all think I am a racist and whatever, fine, I will take that. My record speaks different but I cant even have that. If you think I am a fascist, you need a dictionary. The freedom to choose is the one that defines us and allows growth - closing down information is the greatest threat to us all.

The use of the pen is only guaranteed by the use of the sword.

[jim mk2]

US citizens executing their constitutional freedom to kill each other again.

God Bless the USA.

The Associated Press 2015

US Gunman 4th Lead 4th Lead

At least four US Marines were killed when a gunman unleashed a barrage of shots at two military facilities in Tennessee today, officials said. The suspect was also killed.

Chattanooga Mayor Andy Berke said a total of five people died, including the gunman.

US Attorney Bill Killian said officials were treating the attacks as an "act of domestic terrorism", though FBI Special Agent in Charge Ed Reinhold said authorities were still investigating a motive.

Two officials told the Associated Press that four US Marines were among the dead. A soldier was being treated in hospital for a gunshot wound to the leg, according to one of the officials. The other official said a police officer was also injured.

"Lives have been lost from some faithful people who have been serving our country, and I think I join all Tennesseans in being both sickened and saddened by this," Governor Bill Haslam said.

There was also a shooting at a military recruitment centre about 7 miles (11km) away.

Brian Lepley, a spokesman for the US Army Recruiting Command in Fort Knox, Kentucky, said his recruiters there were told by law enforcement that the gunman, who was in a car, stopped in front of the facility, fired at the building and drove off.

The Army recruiters at the facility told Mr Lepley they were not hurt and had evacuated. Mr Lepley said he had no information about recruiters for the other military branches at the facility.

Sergeant 1st Class Robert Dodge, an Army recruiter in Chattanooga, said he was at his office when someone opened fire and he heard 30 to 50 shots.

President Barack Obama has been briefed by his national security team on the shootings, White House spokesman Eric Schultz said, adding that the president will continue getting updates from his staff as needed.

Marilyn Hutcheson, who works just across the street, said she heard a barrage of gunfire at around 11am local time.

"I couldn't even begin to tell you how many," she said. "It was rapid fire, like pow pow pow pow pow - so quickly. The next thing I knew, there were police cars coming from every direction."

She ran inside, where she remained locked down with other employees and a customer. The gunfire continued with occasional bursts, she estimated, for 20 minutes.

"We're apprehensive," Ms Hutcheson said. "Not knowing what transpired, if it was a grievance or terroristic related, we just don't know."

[jim mk2]

Only in the US

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/26/virginia-gunman-kills-reporter-cameraman

[K-Hod]

Such a waste.

[ultrablue]

Angry man with a grudge has no problem getting a gun. Surely the loopholes have to be closed before more violence happens.

[joey_big_nose]

Something will give eventually... It can't go on.

The issue with the US is that it is so ill equipped to deal with the fast changing pace of modernity. In 1789 the constitution was a revolutionary document critical to the development of democracy and human rights drafted and enforced by law 100 years ahead of its time. All of western civilization owe huge gratitude towards to it.

However it falls further and further behind the realities of today. Legislation created to govern a 13 state nation of a few odd million citizens is now, with a few amendments, supposed to regulate a behemoth of 320+ million. It is failing desperately.

Everything from the simple processing of bills, managing of political dispute, the offering of choice to the electorate, the handling of extreme inequality and managing security issues like the control of weapons is a total abject mess and it will get worse.

Sad to see.

Ps. Thats not to say the uk does not have its own issues, but they are not to the same extent and the governance framework' greater flexibility allows quicker response eg. The devolution of power to Wales and Scotland, the growth and empowerment of fringe parties. This gives a voice and path to change.

In the us there is no path. Just the same ground hog day. One day the pent up pressure will explode.

[Steve Moss]

Something will give eventually... It can't go on.

What is the "it" that you refer to?

[K-Hod]

What is the "it" that you refer to?

Behave Steve!

All these senseless murders caused by fruitcakes getting hold of guns and going on killing sprees when they have a bad day!

How do you propose the problem is fixed? How many more senseless death do there need to be before action is taken?

[ABBEY]

What is the "it" that you refer to?

SPEECHLESS TO BE HONEST

[joey_big_nose]

What is the "it" that you refer to?

The way the political system works in the US. It fails to represent greater numbers every year that passes and the divisions between liberals and conservatives grow every year.

It's an issue in most developed nations but it is far more acute in the States than anywhere else.

Gun regulation is only one facet of this larger dynamic.

[Baz]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/states-tough-gun-laws-shooting-deaths-study-article-1.2343815

Shock, as tougher gun laws = reduced deaths from guns.

Versus:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/31/shock-as-americans-bought-170-million-guns-violent-crime-fell-51/

Seems to me that this is far more politically motivated, than a practical attempt to target the issue.

[Gav]

People act like they're afraid of guns. I've never understood that. There is no danger, unless you point it at someone/thing and pull the trigger. It's an inert object.

I shot 3 different types of guns in the US a few years back under supervision at a gun range, and to be honest, it was one of the worst experiences of my life! Well maybe a little over dramatic as it was nowhere near as bad as losing to Palace away in the play offs but you get my drift.

I was a shaking wreck by the end of it, adrenaline by all accounts, but to think I had the power to murder everyone in that room in under a minute was absolutely bonkers, never again.

All that said, the US constitution gives Americans the right to bare arms, simple as that, so thats the law of the land its got nowt to do with us. If you don't like it don't go, but its nothing to do with us.

In this country we've had systematic abuse of children going on since the 60's and probably earlier. This goes right to the top of the establishment, was, and still is being covered up.

Its illegal, its disgusting, its ruined thousands of lives of the victims and their families, and we should concentrate on getting our own house in order before telling others to sort out theirs.

[Baz]

I shot 3 different types of guns in the US a few years back under supervision at a gun range, and to be honest, it was one of the worst experiences of my life! Well maybe a little over dramatic as it was nowhere near as bad as losing to Palace away in the play offs but you get my drift.

I was a shaking wreck by the end of it, adrenaline by all accounts, but to think I had the power to murder everyone in that room in under a minute was absolutely bonkers, never again.

All that said, the US constitution gives Americans the right to bare arms, simple as that, so thats the law of the land its got nowt to do with us. If you don't like it don't go, but its nothing to do with us.

In this country we've had systematic abuse of children going on since the 60's and probably earlier. This goes right to the top of the establishment, was, and still is being covered up.

Its illegal, its disgusting, its ruined thousands of lives of the victims and their families, and we should concentrate on getting our own house in order before telling others to sort out theirs.

Theres no link between the two things though Gav. You could apply your logic by you not commenting on any other football team/ game / player because we have Venkys.

As far as I can see the right to bear arms is in the second amendment, which means it can be changed (there have been 27 amendments to date).

[Gav]

I see a link Baz, but regardless of that its non of our business what the gun laws are in the states, we need to get our own house in order.