[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[jim mk2]

Those stats are skewed by one event in France (the downing of an airliner by a deranged co-pilot) and the big Norway incident.

As an attempt to deflect attention from America's problem with guns, it's laughable.

[Steve Moss]

Those stats are skewed by one event in France (the downing of an airliner by a deranged co-pilot) and the big Norway incident.

As an attempt to deflect attention from America's problem with guns, it's laughable.

So plans and bombs and firearms used to kill people don't count if they're terrorists in Europe. Got it. One rule for thee and another for me, pretty typical really.

[jim mk2]

So plans and bombs and firearms used to kill people don't count if they're terrorists in Europe. Got it. One rule for thee and another for me, pretty typical really.

One or two nutcases in Europe don't compare with a problem across US society. At least Obama recognises the problem - unlike the hand in the sand attitude of you and your ilk.

[Steve Moss]

One or two nutcases in Europe don't compare with a problem across US society. At least Obama recognises the problem - unlike the hand in the sand attitude of you and your ilk.

My "hand" is not in the sand.

And I'm quite aware (and proud) of the fact that private citizens in the USA have significant firepower at their disposal. Arizona has over 6 million people in the state, and almost as many guns.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/01/daniel-zimmerman/383992/

[jim mk2]

I'm proud that I live in a country where neither its citizens nor its police force need to bear arms to protect themselves. I feel sorry for you living in a country where you feel the need to do so. I especially feel sorry for all the victims and families of people who have been gunned down because of America's archaic obsession with arms.

Up the Rovers.

[Steve Moss]

I'm proud that I live in a country where neither its citizens nor its police force need to bear arms to protect themselves. I feel sorry for you living in a country where you feel the need to do so. I especially feel sorry for all the victims and families of people who have been gunned down because of America's archaic obsession with arms.

Up the Rovers.

I'm proud that I live in a country where its citizens have a recognized right to bear arms to protect themselves which cannot be infringed by the government. I feel sorry for you living in a country where you have no right to a weapon whatsoever as your government views you as too irresponsible to be trusted with one. I especially feel sorry for all the victims of home invasions, rapes and muggings who have been victimized because of the UK's feudalistic obsession with depriving the common man of the right to bear arms, thereby empowering your criminal classes.

Up the Rovers.

[K-Hod]

I'll try and offer a balanced view! (If such a thing exists on what is an emotive subject!) I've been to America twice (working/travelling), seen 7 States, loved and cherished my time there, met some great people and lifelong friends.

I was obviously born and raised in England and I'm proud to say so as well.

It's all well and good Americans being armed, but the main drawback for me is how quickly it can get out of hand. I.E. I was at a bar near to where I had been working, there was an argument in the bar, one guy got angry, then went out to his car to get his gun, thankfully one of his friends had the foresight to see a potential flashpoint and restrained him. THAT was a very scary moment for me, the potential escalation could have been deadly.

You see the shootings that go on which imo are avoidable, if someone has a gun, it needs to be locked away securely so that prying hands can't get to it (i.e. children, the perpetrators of gun violence). Whilst it can be difficult to enforce, (i.e. someone with no criminal history that snaps and decides to go on a rampage could pick up a gun). I know I'll never convince Steve that a lot of these incidents are avoidable and that he has his right to bear arms, but I can't help but think people don't think enough of the consequences of their actions (you see that in this country with knife crime as well), before lashing out. People shouldn't be leaving the house with guns in my view, it's not the Wild West for goodness' sake. Having one for protection at home in theory is fair enough, but it shouldn't be military grade hardware, just something to disable the intruder until law enforcement do the job they're paid to do.

[Steve Moss]

http://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/tell-the-truth-about-gun-violence-numbers-14975

[Beta Ray Bill]

http://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/tell-the-truth-about-gun-violence-numbers-14975

Now that is surprising. A pro-gun and selective use of data and sentiment in favo(u)r of firearms article by a former President of the NRA.

Perhaps for your next trick you could discuss the existence of a god by quoting something said by the Pope?

[speeeeeeedie]

Now that is surprising. A pro-gun and selective use of data and sentiment in favo(u)r of firearms article by a former President of the NRA.

Perhaps for your next trick you could discuss the existence of a god by quoting something said by the Pope?

Agreed. The article is hardly a peer reviewed research study.

In other gun news this side of the pond we have these 2;

A man accidently shoots stranger during a film with loads of shooting in it. He "accidently" fired his gun.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/suspect-in-renton-theater-shooting-says-he-feared-random-attacks/

Arizona man and some of his gang arrested in Oregon after they took over a bird sanctuary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-armed-group-arrest-bundy.html?_r=0

Are these lads patriots? Anarchists? Terrorists? Criminals? Constitutionalists?

[Steve Moss]

Arizona man and some of his gang arrested in Oregon after they took over a bird sanctuary.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/27/us/oregon-armed-group-arrest-bundy.html?_r=0

Are these lads patriots? Anarchists? Terrorists? Criminals? Constitutionalists?

Add "detached from reality", and I would opine "All of the above."

[jim mk2]

http://www.nationalinterest.org/feature/tell-the-truth-about-gun-violence-numbers-14975

Worthless. You'll have to do much better than that.

[Steve Moss]

^ Not really.

[BlueMonday]

There's a documentary on Sky Atlantic Mon 1st Feb, on Policing and Gun Policies in the USA that may be a good watch on this subject.

[dave birch]

And again......

Steve, just exactly what is your country doing to stop its citizens killing other citizens?

edit: "In mass killings".

Steve, you must admit that it does happen far too often.

If that happened here (in Australia) it would cause an outrage. It could, and should in my mind , be enough to bring down a government.

[Tom]

Tragic - but it's a middle aged white guy so it will be blamed on a mental health issue.

[dave birch]

Probably, Tom, but "mental health issues" are not exclusive to the US.

It's got to be the ease of access to guns.

[Tom]

Probably, Tom, but "mental health issues" are not exclusive to the US.

It's got to be the ease of access to guns.

Of course, my comment was more how it will likely be reported on the News.

Black - thug

White - mental health

Brown - terrorist

Jeb Bush's tweet last week was astonishing, a man vying to be president of the country tweeting a picture of his personalised gun with the caption 'America'

[Steve Moss]

And again......

Steve, just exactly what is your country doing to stop its citizens killing other citizens?

edit: "In mass killings".

Steve, you must admit that it does happen far too often.

If that happened here (in Australia) it would cause an outrage. It could, and should in my mind , be enough to bring down a government.

Bring down a government? Wow. We have different sensibilities.

So far in the USA we're not giving up our rights in exchange for the perceived safety of a nanny state.

http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2016/02/video-ride-along-with-uk-anti-knife-crime-task-force/

[dave birch]

No "nanny" state here, Steve, just the will of the people.

I note, though, you didn't answer the question; "just exactly what is your country doing to stop it's citizens killing other citizens".

[Steve Moss]

Crime and Punishment.

Rights can be abused. That's no reason to restrict rights. Otherwise slavery would be the ideal state of man.

[dave birch]

Crime and Punishment.

Rights can be abused. That's no reason to restrict rights. Otherwise slavery would be the ideal state of man.

Steve, if that's an answer to my question, all I can say is, it doesn't seem to be working real well.

What about the right of someone to go about their daily business in peace, what about the right of children to expect to see their mother/father/brother/sister come home.

The right to carry a gun was written in the 1800's when it was dangerous. Things have changed, except for the attitude of some.

Sometime back you (I think it was you, apologies if not) said that it was time that the Catholic church should join the 21st century. A similar thing could be said about this aspect of the US.

[Steve Moss]

Steve, if that's an answer to my question, all I can say is, it doesn't seem to be working real well.

What about the right of someone to go about their daily business in peace, what about the right of children to expect to see their mother/father/brother/sister come home.

The right to carry a gun was written in the 1800's when it was dangerous. Things have changed, except for the attitude of some.

Sometime back you (I think it was you, apologies if not) said that it was time that the Catholic church should join the 21st century. A similar thing could be said about this aspect of the US.

What about the right to avoid scrapes, bruises and unkind words? Your recitation of rights is living in a fantasy land. Yes, one has the right to not be harmed. If someone violates that right, that's why we have a criminal justice system. It is not proper to strip citizens of rights in a deluded and fruitless quest for ultimate security.

[K-Hod]

What it all boils down to though- why does one NEED a gun? You certainly don't need heavy artillery to protect your property, and let's be honest, chances are, any intruders are more than capable of being more effectively armed anyway......

[dave birch]

Unbelievable response there Steve.

Scrapes, bruises and unkind words DO NOT KILL.

My "recitation of rights" is not fantasy, I and many people living in the world enjoy the environment we live in, a safe one, where the possibility of someone shooting off is low.

We too, have a criminal justice system, though you seem not to aware of that fact. It's one that protects my rights to freedom of movement, of speech, to criticise, to protest, to practice a religion, and many other things. You might not realise, we have an armed police force, they are there to do the hard yards with criminals. We have a judiciary to put the crims behind bars, though at times, they seem to be lenient.

We seem to live a life that is, to me good, hassle free. At least I don't have to look over my shoulder, or to think " what's that guy doing over there".

There are only 24 million of us here, but we get on pretty well, we're laid back, easy going, like a beer, love our sport (even gun sports) but we don't need to have "personal protection"

Steve, I consider you as an erudite sort of bloke, you can express yourself in words, there's no need to finish off with a "comic book" illustration. It demeans you.

You really must get out and see how the rest of the civilised world lives.

Finally Steve, you never did answer my question "Just exactly what is your country doing to stop it's citizens from killing other citizens" .