[Archived] Gun Law Debate: Please keep posts civil and conversational

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Thing is, if you try to talk about it after a shooting then Fox will be straight on the case to convince people that the anti-gun gang are using a tragedy for political ends. Then once the furore dies down there's no momentum behind it and it gets dismissed.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

There will always be lone nutters like Thomas Hamilton and the Norwegian fruitcake but these events take place in the US on a regular basis. The US needs to have a grown-up debate about guns because as long as their exisiting guns laws remain in place these mass killings will continue to happen.

No point debating gun law reform with anyone from the U.S. You might as well discuss wether the earth is flat. This is the price they're prepared to pay to own their own personal arsenals. Are they any safer ? You be the judge.

[Amo]

As tragic as that is do you think if a knife was swapped for a gun the outcome would have been better or worse?

I don't necessarily believe what I said. In essence it's the truth, but lax gun laws make it a darn sight easier.

[Tom]

I don't necessarily believe what I said. In essence it's the truth, but lax gun laws make it a darn sight easier.

True enough

I just saw on another forum an American poster said in all seriousness that if teachers carried concealed weapons this would have been avoided

[jim mk2]

I just saw on another forum an American poster said in all seriousness that if teachers carried concealed weapons this would have been avoided

How can you argue with people like that ? Might as well give up and just wait for the next mass slaughter of the innocents.

[DE.]

Speaking of insane...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2h1QNTQDnoU

[Tom]

How can you argue with people like that ? Might as well give up and just wait for the next mass slaughter of the innocents.

The old adage 'never argue with an idiot' has never rung truer, its pointless even trying when someone is so set on an opinion like that they will never see it another way

[ABBEY]

US reaps what it sows. As a country it will never learn.

God bless the NRA.

those little kids reaped nothing and didnt deserve that you unsympthetic pathetic sick man.

[jim mk2]

those little kids reaped nothing and didnt deserve that you unsympthetic pathetic sick man.

[sambo]

Speaking of insane...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2h1QNTQDnoU

Scary. People actually listen to nutters like this as well.

[beerwins]

The lads mother was the owner of the guns, 2 semi automatic handguns, an assault rifle, and more guns found in the car! Did she really need to own all those guns just to look at?

As for the discussion as to whether he would have been able to kill as many people if he had a knife it does'nt bare comparrison, apart from the fact that he would have certainly been challenged and overwhelmed whilst trying to commit this crime as would many of the other insane people that have carried out these cowardly attacks, I would go as far to say that a lot of these attacks would never have happened in the first place if they had not got access to a gun.

There will always be people that have it in them to commit these atrocities but without the ease of obtaining guns a lot would never even contemplate planning an attack of this nature as the outcome would be completely different.

People will always kill people but just because the goverment gets nice little backhanders from gun companies does it make it fair that so many innocent people are dying? Unfortunately it's only going to get worse until the law is changed.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

How can anyone in their right mind advocate private owning battle field weapons like assault rifles ! Years ago I was working on the installation of a large machine in this country. The machine was built in the U.K. but had been designed in the U.S. The design team were eventually based in the U.K. and I got to know them very well. Four youngish likeable guys, all college educated engineers, they were from Albany which I believe is near New York.. They constantly complained about not having access to guns in England. When I asked them " What do you need a gun for in England " they couldn't really answer.

One day one of the group showed me some photos of a jaunt he'd been on whilst back in the U.S.

He and some some pals had bought a few old cars, driven them into a box canyon and spent all afternoon shooting the Kean out of them with a 0.50" calibre heavy machine gun mounted on the back of a jeep. This they considered was a great way to spend their spare time and cash !

[92er]

Four youngish likeable guys, all college educated engineers, they were from Albany which I believe is near New York.

There is an Albany in New York State.

[Mike Graham]

How can anyone in their right mind advocate private owning battle field weapons like assault rifles ! Years ago I was working on the installation of a large machine in this country. The machine was built in the U.K. but had been designed in the U.S. The design team were eventually based in the U.K. and I got to know them very well. Four youngish likeable guys, all college educated engineers, they were from Albany which I believe is near New York.. They constantly complained about not having access to guns in England. When I asked them " What do you need a gun for in England " they couldn't really answer.

One day one of the group showed me some photos of a jaunt he'd been on whilst back in the U.S.

He and some some pals had bought a few old cars, driven them into a box canyon and spent all afternoon shooting the Kean out of them with a 0.50" calibre heavy machine gun mounted on the back of a jeep. This they considered was a great way to spend their spare time and cash !

I have experienced similar. I was in Richland, near Spokane, a few weeks ago and had dinner with a guy at home who as desperate to show me his guns. He had one in the front of his car, 2 concealed in his house (his wife also had a concealed weapon), and a workshop (bigger than my house) with an armoury at the rear via electronic doors which had enough guns to take out the Taliban.

He then set up us guns for him, me and 2 other guys to shoot the local wildlife.

And this was in one of the safest parts of the States.

At another recent visit to Tennessee one of the site managers showed me his 36(!!!!) handguns kept in a gun drawer behind his desk. He kept 2 in his car.....2 just in case one did not work.

[thenodrog]

those little kids reaped nothing and didnt deserve that you unsympthetic pathetic sick man.

Do you know Abbs it's just like Dunblane cos I can't even watch the news now cos the pictures of those children haunt me.

[Steve Moss]

For those interested:

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund#http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/335739/facts-about-mass-shootings-john-fund#

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm

[Rovermatt]

There is an Albany in New York State.

State capital.

[jim mk2]

The madness of the US gun culture and why atrocities will continue to take place and why more children will die.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/12/newtown-and-the-madness-of-guns.html

The US right wing (see two poster two above) is inhuman.

[Steve Moss]

Secondly, Jim, I'm surprised you haven't been banned (again) for trolling. You seem to disagree with everyone, which is fine, but you're downright rude and obnoxious in every single post you make. Why?

Perhaps because right wingers and moderates believe in free speech rights, even when insults originate from leftists? Not interested in scoring cheap points by complaining to moderators. Free discussion matters, even when engaging (or ignoring) trolls or troll-like remarks.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I don't know whether it's possible for the US to change their law with major public support. It reminds me of Catholicism and contraceptive use.

Secondly, Jim, I'm surprised you haven't been banned (again) for trolling. You seem to disagree with everyone, which is fine, but you're downright rude and obnoxious in every single post you make. Why?

I don't disagree with Jim on this issue, the U.S. gun culture is madness. And I'm not a troll. A school room full of infants is massacred, will this fact change anything ? Of course not. They've got the right to carry guns. That's the debate over really.

[SouthAussieRover]

I don't disagree with Jim on this issue, the U.S. gun culture is madness. And I'm not a troll. A school room full of infants is massacred, will this fact change anything ? Of course not. They've got the right to carry guns. That's the debate over really.

+1

[Paul]

Yesterday I listened to an item on Radio 4 relating to Newton and gun laws. An expert explained the right to bear arms is enshrined in the second amendment and is based on the (historical) need for an armed militia:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I have never thought about this before as I was not aware of the militia bit. I thought it was simply the right to bare arms. Assuming I have understood this correctly, in all seriousness, how is it millions of people legally hold weapons under a law which I read as saying should be for militia purposes?

I doubt the average American gun holder has any militia training or any intention of joining a militia, an outdated concept. This suggests to me, and I've only been aware of the wording for 24 hours, America has actually perverted the true intention of her Constitution in allowing private citizens to hold guns in the way they do.

I find this strange as I've believed Americans hold their Constitutional rights close to their hearts but it seems not to be the case when it comes to guns?

Or have I missed the point entirely?

[dave birch]

The citizens of the US are responsible for everything that happens within their borders.

It's up to them.

They want their gun laws, they accept the deaths that those laws cause.

Live by the gun, die by the gun.

[DE.]

On a slightly different note, situations like this are the reason I strongly object to the term 'hero' being used for a sportsperson, footballer or otherwise.

The teachers who sacrificed or risked their lives in an attempt to save those weaker than them are the true definition of the word hero... no sportsperson deserves the same title, regardless of context.

[Steve Moss]

Yesterday I listened to an item on Radio 4 relating to Newton and gun laws. An expert explained the right to bear arms is enshrined in the second amendment and is based on the (historical) need for an armed militia:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I have never thought about this before as I was not aware of the militia bit. I thought it was simply the right to bare arms. Assuming I have understood this correctly, in all seriousness, how is it millions of people legally hold weapons under a law which I read as saying should be for militia purposes?

I doubt the average American gun holder has any militia training or any intention of joining a militia, an outdated concept. This suggests to me, and I've only been aware of the wording for 24 hours, America has actually perverted the true intention of her Constitution in allowing private citizens to hold guns in the way they do.

I find this strange as I've believed Americans hold their Constitutional rights close to their hearts but it seems not to be the case when it comes to guns?

Or have I missed the point entirely?

You've missed the point entirely. The 2nd Amendment protects an individual right to bear arms, not a right to bear arms while in service to the militia. Here's a link to the Heller decision, which lays out the text and history of the 2nd Amendment: http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/07-290.pdf.

If you don't want to read the whole thing, here's the first holding (in a nutshell): "The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home."