[Archived] outsider so can someone please explain?

[JMillZz]

So, looking back at the catalogue of errors that led to our relegation, I am going to try and see if I can follow Braddocks trail of erm, thought.

When Allardyce was sacked and Kean took over he survived the remainder of the season without any Kean Out chants, yet still took us to within a whisker of relegation, only to be saved by certain individual players (such as Hoilett) playing out their skins on the final day at Wolves. Note our tactics (KEAN!) changed in the second half which nearly resulted in us losing the game, but alas, although Kean tried his best to cock things up, he failed, and we stayed up! (Yay)

Throughout the interim we signed tripe yet heard all this "judge me on my signings" BS that Kean chose to spout. His signings underperformed and he was judged, judged harshly but fairly by the almighty fans, but to no avail as he is still in a job.

We had the worst start to the season in goodness knows how many years, the tactical ineptitude was there for all to see, wacky substitutions, bad tactics, leaving out key players to be replaced by kiss-arses/youth.

Despite protests before the game and after, during the games the PLAYERS received 110% from the fans. There was no booing the team, simply chants of Kean Out. Were the fans wrong for wanting the manager out? No, this cretin has the worst record of any PL manager and, from the off, it was clear from common-sense, intellectual and STATISTICAL points of view that we would be relegated if Kean stayed in charge.

The ineptitude lasted the entire campaign and we were relegated after a terrible end to the season.

Whilst this was going on, we had to deal with his lies to the papers and other media, accusations of fans spiking his drink, his constant efforts to create a divide between club and fans and, worst of all, witnessing his smug face talk with an ultimate sense of deserving despite being completely unqualified for the job.

As much as Braddock and the few that follow his view can say that the fans played a part in relegation, it is clear to anyone with any knowledge of football that this is not the case. Look instead to the manager and the tactics on show. They were terrible and if we were all chanting "WE LOVE KEAN" throughout the game, it wouldn't have changed the fact that Kean's woeful tactics assisted the opposition in being able to exploit and ultimately better us.

Do chants of Kean Out really make the players play out of position? Does it make them unable to perform to a decent standard? If so then why did Yakubu and Hoilett, who are great INDIVIDUALS do so well despite the chants? Surely they should have been sulking? Players are paid to play football. Simple. Chants against the manager and owners would barely affect them. It's not as if chants were aimed at them which is a whole different ball game. Did the chants of Kean Out result in Givet refusing to play? In Nelsen wanting to leave * ? In ALLLLL the other players wanting to leave? NOPE. Kean is the sole reason for his fall out with the players.

To summarise, Kean dropping of Givet and N'zonzi due to his own insolence cost us valuable points. Selling quality players and replacing with tripe (Venky's to blame too) cost us points. Bad tactics cost us points. The fans chanting against the manager did diddly squat as far as relegation is concerned. Look at Man Utd, their fans chant against the Glazers, with some even opposing Fergie's position on the matter and yet they get by just fine.

It's daft that I am wasting my energy replying to such an idiotic and nonsensical point of view but I felt compelled.

(*Nelsen thought Kean was a clown. My friend from Manchester has the same knee specialist as him and was told a few things about what Nelsen thought of Kean.)

[den]

There is an argument that says fans of other teams, who did nothing and saw their team relegated contributed as well.

It's all bunkum.

[bradeagle]

Yeah characters like Braddock are like the violinists on the titanic in this scenario.

[AggyBlue]

So, looking back at the catalogue of errors that led to our relegation, I am going to try and see if I can follow Braddocks trail of erm, thought.

I've been trying to work out whether his right or left side of brain is the dominant side following his (il)logical posts.

I've concluded both are dormant

[Gav]

Lets take a step back a second. When the fans wanted Harford out what did we sing?

We want Harford out a say we want harford out. It probably went on for two or three games gathering more pace and the board acted and took the decision that he had not only lost the players but the supporters. Which anyone can see means your position is untenable and a change is required for the good of the team.

The exact same scenarios happened again replacing the name Harford with Hodgson, Kidd and Incey where applicable and i cannot for one second any one in hind sight can say removing any of those was a bad decision.

Low and behold the next manager who isnt up to the job is first given a chance, and does not improve. Now replace the names with Kean. The only difference this time is that the chants started and when a natural point to sack him emerged, he was issued a new contract. So the chants will inevitable keep getting louder and louder and frustration will boil over as it is uncharted territory.

Enough said.

I think the people who went last season will agree that the chants were sporadic at best, possibly a little more vocal in the Darwen end, but hardly anything to write home about, certainly not enough to label the fans as playing a role in us going down, thats a stupid remark in my opinion.

[jim mk2]

The fans were definitely a factor in our relegation because they did not protest strongly enough to force the owners to act.

The protests (such as they were) were so weak and mild as to be almost laughable.

[Silencio]

the protests and demos last season were the moral obligation of supporters who can see that supporting a club (as opposed to merely a team) sometimes requires direct action not blind, sky sports-style grins.

it was clear to anyone with any ounce of footballing sense that singing and laughing while kean took us down would have made no positive difference whatsoever. therefore the only thing to do was to try to get him out as soon as possible. unfortunately, we failed to oust the scum and he took us down. jim's got it spot on here, as he has ever since venkeans took over and people like braddock, pedro obviously still have some lessons to learn!

i heard that moron darren fletcher (606, big kean fan) asking why rovers supporters didn't behave more like portsmouth supporters who got behind their team no matter what. a ###### ridiculous question which answers itself. pedro and braddock should look at portsmouths situation and be glad that at least the rovers fans ain't taking this lying down as they have...

[braddock]

Certain periods of last season were 'not a good time to sack Kean'

Considering we were relegated, ANYTIME from August to May would have done.

Must do better Bradders.

It was never a certain at the time, though with hindsight you are correct. I remember a lot of others saying now was the time to sack him (from around March onwards) as they had missed the boat with that decision leaving it so late.

Bunkum.

The fans only got wound up probably 4 times on mass throughout the entire season, to blame them for the debacle in anyway is ludicrous. If the fans had raised the roof week in week out it simply wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference because the manager is inept, simple as that for me.

And how many times during the season did they all rally together and support, like the majority of home crowds do? We didn't play a home game all season.

It's incredibly naive, and frankly stupid, to think us shouting "Kean Out" and holding up banners seriously affected the players enough so that we "contributed" to relegation....what about how bad we were before the protests, or in the games we didn't protest, what about the games we protested and won, or our magnificent away record with the least amount of wins in the division.

It's a fair assumption, combined with times in the season where Andrews was booed every time he touched the ball. It was not the right atmosphere for youngsters, that's for certain. It wasn't a major factor but who knows what might have happened if the players were buoyed. I don't think we'd have finished with the total we ended on, personally. Whether or not it would have been enough to save us is another matter.

the protests and demos last season were the moral obligation of supporters

Outside of the 90 minutes would have been an acceptable time to do it.

[Silencio]

Outside of the 90 minutes would have been an acceptable time to do it.

ridiculous! fans turning in the stadium can get a manager out. what do you think the supporters could have done outside the stadium and what should they have done in it?. don't come back pretending that what the fans did had anything like the negative effect on the team that kean's training, tactics and vendettas against senior players did. with him in charge relegation was an absolute certainty...

[JMillZz]

Braddock read my post on the previous page. The fans didn't assist in relegation. It was a calamity of errors that caused it.

[braddock]

ridiculous! fans turning in the stadium can get a manager out. what do you think the supporters could have done outside the stadium and what should they have done in it?. don't come back pretending that what the fans did had anything like the negative effect on the team that kean's training, tactics and vendettas against senior players did. with him in charge relegation was an absolute certainty...

Post match inside the stadium.

And I'm not making such claims, I'm simply saying they also contributed negatively. You're all getting very confused by this very simple theory. Relegation was not a certainty under Kean. I'll grant you it appears to have been likely, probably very likely. It was not a certainty.

Braddock read my post on the previous page. The fans didn't assist in relegation. It was a calamity of errors that caused it.

I'm not replying to such posts as I've stated my points several times, including stating the difference between causing and contributing/assisting. I'm forced to go round in circles enough trying to explain basic things in different ways so I'm not doing it multiple times in the same way when you've already read my thoughts.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

If anyone thinks relegation under Kean wasn't a certainty then you don't understand football.

[Pedro]

How on earth did the fans contribute?? Thats a ludicrous claim in my opinion. Kean's record was absolute ****e in his first season with no protests and our record in matches with protests was better than our overall record. There's no quantifiable evidence whatsoever to indicate that the fans had any impact. While Kean's record is there in black and white, as are the facts about who Venkys forced out and brought into the club.

Its shakey ground to suggest fans have an impact at the best of times. But if you've got the worst owners and manager in english football on the case, trying to put any blame on the fans is like putting blame on an ant for standing on a house thats being hit by a wrecking ball.

Plus you're mixing cause and effect here. The cause is Venkean, the effect is fan disgruntlement. Saying it was everyone's fault is the kind of nonsense reasoning you'd expect from some wishy-washy government organisation thats ****** up, and all it does is let Venkys and Kean off the hook. I can see why Braddock would wanna do that with his Mrs Desai avatar, its pretty obvious what his underlying motivation is.

To be fair, fans started whinging and getting uptight from the off. I remember xmas 2011 one of those angry drunken dudes (one has a strong southern accent) in the lower BBurn End threatening to beat a guy up who had a Turkey on his head because they thought he was supporting Venkys. At this time people also starting bringing signs regarding the Venkys.

In response to the predictable replies:

As per my post, I believe to some extent that we did contribute to the relegation. I'm not denying the cause and effect and like I originally wrote it, I'm not denying that the portions of blame filters down from the top but some supporters were purposefully distractive and disruptive and it is laughable how anyone can deny this.

We weren't unified, we didn't support the club 100%, we didn't always motivate the players, whenever we went a goal down certain groups got straight on the back of the team and manager but most importantly for me we didn't make Ewood a cauldron of hate for the visitors, we made it like that for our own players and fellow supporters. For me, that isn't going to help the guys on the pitch one bit. For those of you that think that positive support doesn't have an impact...just ask the Olympians.

[Silencio]

Post match inside the stadium.

And I'm not making such claims, I'm simply saying they also contributed negatively. You're all getting very confused by this very simple theory. Relegation was not a certainty under Kean. I'll grant you it appears to have been likely, probably very likely. It was not a certainty.

a manager as bad as kean will get you relegated over 38 games in the premier league. that's as close to certain as you can get and is why nobody as bad as kean has ever managed a premier league team for a full season. that's why the supporters had to do what they saw fit to get him out. as jim says, it didn't go far enough but some gave it a good go at least...

[braddock]

a manager as bad as kean will get you relegated over 38 games in the premier league. that's as close to certain as you can get and is why nobody as bad as kean has ever managed a premier league team for a full season. that's why the supporters had to do what they saw fit to get him out. as jim says, it didn't go far enough but some gave it a good go at least...

Then we'll have to disagree.

[Silencio]

For those of you that think that positive support doesn't have an impact...just ask the Olympians.

im sure it has a poitive effect but it would do (Please don't use that word again) all if steve kean was responsible for training them... the most important thing for the team last season was to get rid of kean as it was certain we were going down under him from that wolves home game on the first day.

[braddock]

To be fair, fans started whinging and getting uptight from the off. I remember xmas 2011 one of those angry drunken dudes (one has a strong southern accent) in the lower BBurn End threatening to beat a guy up who had a Turkey on his head because they thought he was supporting Venkys. At this time people also starting bringing signs regarding the Venkys.

In response to the predictable replies:

As per my post, I believe to some extent that we did contribute to the relegation. I'm not denying the cause and effect and like I originally wrote it, I'm not denying that the portions of blame filters down from the top but some supporters were purposefully distractive and disruptive and it is laughable how anyone can deny this.

We weren't unified, we didn't support the club 100%, we didn't always motivate the players, whenever we went a goal down certain groups got straight on the back of the team and manager but most importantly for me we didn't make Ewood a cauldron of hate for the visitors, we made it like that for our own players and fellow supporters. For me, that isn't going to help the guys on the pitch one bit. For those of you that think that positive support doesn't have an impact...just ask the Olympians.

Said better than I've managed.

Thanks.

I agree with this.

I remember fans nearly fighting in the toilets after the West Brom away game when Kalinic got sent off. A huge percentage of the fans in there were devestated we hadn't been beaten.

[Silencio]

Then we'll have to disagree.

over what part?

[braddock]

Well have a read through what you've said. Have a read through what I've said. Look at where we have differed in our opinions.

Those are the parts we will have to disagree on.

[Silencio]

Well have a read through what you've said. Have a read through what I've said. Look at where we have differed in our opinions.

Those are the parts we will have to disagree on.

sorry, just can't see how anyone could disagree with the idea that a manager as bad as kean will get you relegated over 38 games in the PL. the half a season before gave you a taster and the 38 games after proved it conclusively did it not?

[Tom10K]

To be fair, fans started whinging and getting uptight from the off. I remember xmas 2011 one of those angry drunken dudes (one has a strong southern accent) in the lower BBurn End threatening to beat a guy up who had a Turkey on his head because they thought he was supporting Venkys. At this time people also starting bringing signs regarding the Venkys.

In response to the predictable replies:

As per my post, I believe to some extent that we did contribute to the relegation. I'm not denying the cause and effect and like I originally wrote it, I'm not denying that the portions of blame filters down from the top but some supporters were purposefully distractive and disruptive and it is laughable how anyone can deny this.

We weren't unified, we didn't support the club 100%, we didn't always motivate the players, whenever we went a goal down certain groups got straight on the back of the team and manager but most importantly for me we didn't make Ewood a cauldron of hate for the visitors, we made it like that for our own players and fellow supporters. For me, that isn't going to help the guys on the pitch one bit. For those of you that think that positive support doesn't have an impact...just ask the Olympians.

Maybe this is a predictable reply but I feel it is needed. The players could and should of had full positive support if the correct decisions had been taken, in line with a normal football club scenario. What we are dealing with is unprecedented in the history of the game, last season saw us pick up more points at home than we did away. Six of the Eight wins in the league last season came on our own pitch and mostly during the more vocally disruptive matches. Some of the most embarrassing performances last season came away from home at Spurs, Cardiff and Swansea. I really want to agree that the backing of the team makes a difference, its something that I've always believed in but this situation surely cannot be blamed on supporters trying to bring about positive change.

As you say its nothing new the anger at this Venky's regime and Steve Kean has been here since they made the sweeping changes that have influenced our football club, some saw it earlier than others. I hope that the correct decisions can be made in order for the football club to at least be the family friendly club it once was. Stopping banners or people shouting "Kean Out" is not the answer, the big changes need to come soon or the supporters will just disappear.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

And how many times during the season did they all rally together and support, like the majority of home crowds do? We didn't play a home game all season.

The fans got behind the team as well as they could under the circumstances,never did they turn on the team,even the final relegation match against Wigan.

To lay any blame at the feet of the fans is pathetic in my view.Most rational people know full well were the full blame lies for last seasons debacle.

[braddock]

The fans got behing the team as well as they could under the circumstances,never did they turn on the team,even the final relegation match against Wigan.

To lay any blame at the feet of the fans is pathetic in my view.

As well as they could?

So it's too much to ask to 'sing your hearts out for the lads' and keep the protesting to post match? Under the circumstances they couldn't do that?

I think it's pathetic to say that the fans were restrained during the 90 minutes from supporting the team properly and singing for players who were actually on the pitch. Most the lads we have playing for us now don't even have songs for them. Proper good fans.

Maybe this is a predictable reply but I feel it is needed. The players could and should of had full positive support if the correct decisions had been taken, in line with a normal football club scenario. What we are dealing with is unprecedented in the history of the game, last season saw us pick up more points at home than we did away. Six of the Eight wins in the league last season came on our own pitch and mostly during the more vocally disruptive matches. Some of the most embarrassing performances last season came away from home at Spurs, Cardiff and Swansea. I really want to agree that the backing of the team makes a difference, its something that I've always believed in but this situation surely cannot be blamed on supporters trying to bring about positive change.

As you say its nothing new the anger at this Venky's regime and Steve Kean has been here since they made the sweeping changes that have influenced our football club, some saw it earlier than others. I hope that the correct decisions can be made in order for the football club to at least be the family friendly club it once was. Stopping banners or people shouting "Kean Out" is not the answer, the big changes need to come soon or the supporters will just disappear.

A fair post but we have no evidence to see how well we could have done with proper support. It may not have been enough to keep us up, and Kean as manager and Venky's in charge obviously contributed more but still I don't remember a single game where we had fans singing for sustained periods of the game, like we have sometimes had in previsous seasons. Not once during the entirety of last season.

I do appreciate your reasoned response though and you talk a lot of sense.

[Pedro]

im sure it has a poitive effect but it would do (Please don't use that word again) all if steve kean was responsible for training them... the most important thing for the team last season was to get rid of kean as it was certain we were going down under him from that wolves home game on the first day.

I agree that the biggest issue is/was Kean but my only statement on it is that the fans aren't as blameless as they always claim on here. I'll put these questions to anyone who feels that we supporters have no effect:

1.Given that we now have hindsight that even after all the various forms of protesting we didn't remove him and it appears that Kean is here until the day he turns to dust, do you think that those exact same, badly organised players would be more or less likely to perform with us blindly, 100% behind them?

2. Do you think that no player would have been put off joining us after seeing the way that we were portrayed in the media?

3. Do you think that no player thought "I'm not going to try my best for this bunch".

We could all add countless other similar questions and even switch the scenario to players not wanting to be led by such a clown - but my point and belief is, we have/had an effect on things.

[Tom10K]

I think it's pathetic to say that the fans were restrained during the 90 minutes from supporting the team properly and singing for players who were actually on the pitch. Most the lads we have playing for us now don't even have songs for them. Proper good fans.

Why were the players not on the pitch? Our fans have hardly been inventive with chants for individual players over the last 10 years, are fans judged on their naivety to shout no matter what. Do you not believe that fans have a right to show displeasure to poor performances, teams are booed off all the time clubs normally make steps to rectify the problems. How many managers have lasted this long by getting horrific results and alienating supporters?