[Archived] Premier League Happenings

[M-K]

Hull is a rugby town. I used to watch Hull City when I was a student there, and they played in a poxy ground where one entire side was condemned due to asbestos and the away end was basically just a kerb in front of a Kwik Save. They were getting crowds of under 4,000. So it might be a fairly large city but not many people there care about the local football team.

[CapeTownRover]

Hull is a rugby town. I used to watch Hull City when I was a student there, and they played in a poxy ground where one entire side was condemned due to asbestos and the away end was basically just a kerb in front of a Kwik Save. They were getting crowds of under 4,000. So it might be a fairly large city but not many people there care about the local football team.

There are loads of clubs whereby the locals dont actually care about their own team, but prefer to care about teams like United, Liverpool and so on.

[Stuart]

why Stuart, why not just a good manager, who uses good tactics and who knows what he is doing? I once remember we had one in Mark Hughes before, and he basically had to scrape the barrel. Allardyce also had to scrape around for a few players, and that worked out alright.

Ask yourself why we waited until we had Jack's money to kick everything off? A happy coincidence?

[CapeTownRover]

like i said before, i appreciate the fact that JW spent loads of his cash to get us to the promised land. His legacy lives on, the facilities or infrastructure are all in place thanks to him. However, do we really need to spend loads of cash again to just get back into the PL? and then what? there will be teams who will spend loads more than us, so its not always the best thing to spend without a proper structure in place. Realistically we have to look at it, and bring in a management structure at both board and team level, that will be able to hold things together untill some sort of sanity returns.

What are our aims? PL again? PL and win a trophy? PL and Europe? We are where we are because of mismanagement at every level of the club, so my question again is, do we spend loads of money on players again immediately, or do we take money right now, get the important things right, and then kick on from there.

[DE.]

So, who got the 17m for duff, 17m for Roque, Bentley, etc......would that not go back to the trust?

Two of those were sold post 06/07, so not really relevant to what I was saying. The Duff money likely helped pay for the wages of Santa Cruz, Benni Mac, Ferguson, etc.

[Mike E]

The point is you either have 'LOTSA MUNEH' or a management structure and a manager/scouting system with a phenomenal ability to spot a player. This is usually down to money (affording said players) or being bloody lucky having a manager able to find the bargains.

Which one is easier? Money. How often do phenomenal bargain hunters come along? Not very. So money is the most likely path to take unless we could entice Hughes back here, but I doubt he'd come.

But even that talent of getting players in requires money (see Hughes buggering off to City because we wouldn't stump up £4m for Diarra). It all comes down to available resources, of which we are rather quickly running out. Our natural position is where we are now imo.

As I say, we were punching above our weight and proud of it in the PL. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Stuart]

like i said before, i appreciate the fact that JW spent loads of his cash to get us to the promised land. His legacy lives on, the facilities or infrastructure are all in place thanks to him. However, do we really need to spend loads of cash again to just get back into the PL? and then what? there will be teams who will spend loads more than us, so its not always the best thing to spend without a proper structure in place. Realistically we have to look at it, and bring in a management structure at both board and team level, that will be able to hold things together untill some sort of sanity returns.

What are our aims? PL again? PL and win a trophy? PL and Europe? We are where we are because of mismanagement at every level of the club, so my question again is, do we spend loads of money on players again immediately, or do we take money right now, get the important things right, and then kick on from there.

You've not answered my question, Isgak and you are changing the discussion there away from "what our natural position is".

The point being that in a parallel universe where Jack didn't buy Rovers, we would have evolved into a team probably on a par with Burnley and Blackpool, even Preston. Clubs who would likely yo-yo between the second and third tier.

I'll ask the question in another way, in the absence of Jack's money (and legacy), what advantage or divine right, do we have over those clubs to expect to reach the PL - simply by appointing the right manager?

[CapeTownRover]

i wouldnt say its our divine right or that we should have an advantage over other teams Stuart. I do however believe that, there have im sure been instances where teams from the lower leagues have made it into the PL without having to throw alot of money at it. Perhaps its taken along time to achieve it, but my point was merely that with the right people in charge it is possible.

Our natural position pre Jack days im not sure of mate, i didnt follow the team until about 92 or 93 if im being honest. However, to me that is irrelevant, as what happened is history, but our natural position right now is the championship and thats a fact. Should we be in the PL next season? Based on what has happened, i dont think we would have deserved it.

[BlueMonday]

Ask yourself why we waited until we had Jack's money to kick everything off? A happy coincidence?

The way I see it, a Blackburn lad, working in a Blackburn Company, worked hard, built up his business employing Blackburn people who worked equally hard. So a very successful Blackburn business was built up with hard work and nous, and when it was sold the proceeds were re invested (forever grateful Jack) in the Towns football team.

So Rovers success to date, was bought and paid for by the Town itself. IMHO

[Majiball]

Someone should Email Matt Smith he's the only one who can potentially answer these Q's.

[Mike E]

Someone should Email Matt Smith he's the only one who can potentially answer these Q's.

I'd have more pressing questions to ask. Perhaps concerning the availability of Jenna-Louise Coleman

[BlueMonday]

Someone should Email Matt Smith he's the only one who can potentially answer these Q's.

Who?

[Majiball]

I'd have more pressing questions to ask. Perhaps concerning the availability of Jenna-Louise Coleman

Aye, wouldn't we all mate!

I wonder if she'd do it in front of a mirror?????

[M-K]

The way I see it, a Blackburn lad, working in a Blackburn Company, worked hard, built up his business employing Blackburn people who worked equally hard. So a very successful Blackburn business was built up with hard work and nous, and when it was sold the proceeds were re invested (forever grateful Jack) in the Towns football team.

So Rovers success to date, was bought and paid for by the Town itself. IMHO

Or the taxpayer, since Uncle Jack went into exile in Jersey to avoid paying tax.

[Tom]

David Luiz scored another ridiculously good goal

Some talent he just needs playing in midfield

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Aye, it was a belter. Love David Luiz, think he's quality. Looks like a Benfica-Chelsea final as it stands. Looking forward to that one.

[Audax]

I'm starting to think Wigan will go down, not because the task of staying up is so difficult but after 5 years or how many of these "great escapes" they've had, some of these clubs including West Brom who was probably relegated one time during that 5 year period can really sink 'em and I like Bob quite a bit. Wigan and Aston Villa play the last weekend, so there is a chance, there could be a laggard in the bunch that Wigan trails but as of now, with a game in hand, Wigan is 5 points behind Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland.

[thenodrog]

No one's disputing it, but is missing the point. He died a long time ago and the club thrived until 2 years ago with very little investment in the latter years because of the quality of the people in charge. I'm saying that Rovers have shown how clubs like ours have shown how it is possible to sustain top-flight football and that to say we should now pack up and go home is defeatist and pathetic.

Clubs like ours???? Jim, there aren't any. There has been some massive personal investment in bigger clubs e.g Chelsea and City but how many 'clubs like ours' have benefitted from an investment of £60m+ over 20 years ago (and which would prob be double today)?

Tell you what Jim name me some 'clubs like ours' that have sustained 20 years at the top table would you?

But there's far more money in the prem now, far more. It could be done again but you'd need shrewd people and processes and that's as likely as me winning the lotto with all the numskulls investing Ewood.

'numbskulls'. Quite funny that given the context Maj, if you don't mind me saying so.

[BlueMonday]

Or the taxpayer, since Uncle Jack went into exile in Jersey to avoid paying tax.

General taxation on the sale proceeds maybe, but Walker Steel payed its way. Didn't stop him investing in Rovers.

I'd do the same frankly.

[thenodrog]

like i said before, i appreciate the fact that JW spent loads of his cash to get us to the promised land. His legacy lives on, the facilities or infrastructure are all in place thanks to him. However, do we really need to spend loads of cash again to just get back into the PL? and then what? there will be teams who will spend loads more than us, so its not always the best thing to spend without a proper structure in place. Realistically we have to look at it, and bring in a management structure at both board and team level, that will be able to hold things together untill some sort of sanity returns.

What are our aims? PL again? PL and win a trophy? PL and Europe? We are where we are because of mismanagement at every level of the club, so my question again is, do we spend loads of money on players again immediately, or do we take money right now, get the important things right, and then kick on from there.

I don't want to be disparaging but are you not old enough to remember the chain of events accurately? If not let me remind you...

1. Don Mackay was managing the club very well within the constraints at the time.

2. Jack Walker started chucking his financial support in.

3. We signed a few players but when Jack decided to fully commit and Don tried to sign Gary Linekar as a statement of intent to the football world we were subject to widespread humiliation in the press and media. (imo this turned out to work fantastically well in our favour as Jack must have been kick started into action by that humiliation and through a burning desire to make them ALL eat their words.)

4. Jack replaced Don Mackay with Kenny Dalglish to make his own statement of intent, players and agents took notice at last and the rest is history.

Now.... signing KMD at that time was almost the equivalent of a current Championship club signing Jose Mourhino! How likely would that be do you think without a massive financial guarantee for signing the very top rated players to entice him? As it stands and even given the fine job that Bowyer has done he wont attract the new S&S will he?

[Guest Norbert]

You have to take into account the vastly increased difference in financial power and perception of a clubs' 'size' now. Those clubs that are often in the CL are now seen as the holy grail for many players, and it has become a closed shop where teams like Liverpool, Dortmund, Villa and Spurs struggle to hold on to their top players when Man Utd, Real Madrid or Barca come calling. There are about 15 or so clubs in Europe that swagger about and can buy anyone, another 20 or so hanging on their coat tails desperate to break into that top tier, then there is everyone else. There was not such a massive gulf 20 years ago, so it wasn't quite such a big leap to become a good Premier League team, up there trying to get a European place.

[jim mk2]

Clubs like ours???? Jim, there aren't any. There has been some massive personal investment in bigger clubs e.g Chelsea and City but how many 'clubs like ours' have benefitted from an investment of £60m+ over 20 years ago (and which would prob be double today)?

Tell you what Jim name me some 'clubs like ours' that have sustained 20 years at the top table would you?

Everton. Had no money for donkey's years yet have managed to stay at the top through brilliant management. Point is, we have shown what is possible - the failure of other clubs to follow our example is an idictment of their poor management.

By the way, I'm very flattered by your apparent need to reply to all my posts. Some people would accuse you of stalking.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Everton. Had no money for donkey's years yet have managed to stay at the top through brilliant management. Point is, we have shown what is possible - the failure of other clubs to follow our example is an idictment of their poor management.

By the way, I'm very flattered by your apparent need to reply to all my posts. Some people would accuse you of stalking.

Haven't Everton been in the top division throughout their history? I'm sure they've had money at plenty of points during it, and even when they haven't there's not having money Everton-style and not having money say Burnley-style. You know for sure who's still gonna attract the better players even if they're both in the same division.

Had pretty much given up on this argument as its obvious you aren't gonna budge, but you can't start using my own examples against me! I'm quite surprised at how little you seem to question this belief that there is no natural order in football considering the overwhelming statistical evidence, vastly unequal distribution of money and large majority of public opinion that support there being one.

[thenodrog]

Really does intrigue me how Everton despite being apparently potless manage to keep theior best players by and large. Sure they lost Pienarr and Rooney but they did maximise their returns on them plus they hung on to cahill and Arteta much longer than we could hope to have done and to date they are keeping Baines happy.

[CapeTownRover]

I don't want to be disparaging but are you not old enough to remember the chain of events accurately? If not let me remind you...

1. Don Mackay was managing the club very well within the constraints at the time.

2. Jack Walker started chucking his financial support in.

3. We signed a few players but when Jack decided to fully commit and Don tried to sign Gary Linekar as a statement of intent to the football world we were subject to widespread humiliation in the press and media. (imo this turned out to work fantastically well in our favour as Jack must have been kick started into action by that humiliation and through a burning desire to make them ALL eat their words.)

4. Jack replaced Don Mackay with Kenny Dalglish to make his own statement of intent, players and agents took notice at last and the rest is history.

Now.... signing KMD at that time was almost the equivalent of a current Championship club signing Jose Mourhino! How likely would that be do you think without a massive financial guarantee for signing the very top rated players to entice him? As it stands and even given the fine job that Bowyer has done he wont attract the new S&S will he?

fair enough Gordon, but as you say the rest is history. Ill repeat again, forever greatful for what JW did for the club. But whose to say that a club our size cannot sustain its position in the PL in todays times, without the need to chuck vast amounts of money at it? realistically, probably less than half the 20 teams in the PL would be spending loads, so you basically you are able to compete on a somewhat equal level with the rest. this is just my opinion, and i do believe its possible with the right management structure in place, not necessarily just the manager of the team.

No doubt Bowyer wont be able to attract another S&S, but thats a bit unfair towards GB imo, as no matter who the manager is, strikers are always the hardest to sign, or at least unpredictable as to how they may turn out as a player.