[Archived] Champions League 2012/13

[Guest Norbert]

I think you're right Maji. Athletico have improved enough to be up there with Spain's Old Firm for the past few seasons, and a fair number of the other clubs like Valencia could edge their equivilents in England. The Premier League is just too saturated with money to actually develop it's product. Why bother spending the effort to improve the grass roots/youth teams, when you can poach a 16 year old off Leyton Orient, or buy some player from Paraguay from a Spanish club for £16m? Too much money being spent on average managers and over rated players. And too many promising teenagers sign for Man City, Chelsea etc. and then spend the first 5 years of their professional career picking up £40,000 p/w wages whilst on loan to Wolves if they're lucky to get 1st team football.

Although half the German team is foreign, there are some damned good players coming through. They don't seem to miss Klose, Ballack, Frings or that generation whereas other than Wilshire, the English midfield will look a bit shaky once Gerrad, Parker, Lampard and even Barry call it a day.

[Majiball]

I think you're right Maji. Athletico have improved enough to be up there with Spain's Old Firm for the past few seasons, and a fair number of the other clubs like Valencia could edge their equivilents in England. The Premier League is just too saturated with money to actually develop it's product. Why bother spending the effort to improve the grass roots/youth teams, when you can poach a 16 year old off Leyton Orient, or buy some player from Paraguay from a Spanish club for £16m? Too much money being spent on average managers and over rated players. And too many promising teenagers sign for Man City, Chelsea etc. and then spend the first 5 years of their professional career picking up £40,000 p/w wages whilst on loan to Wolves if they're lucky to get 1st team football.

Although half the German team is foreign, there are some damned good players coming through. They don't seem to miss Klose, Ballack, Frings or that generation whereas other than Wilshire, the English midfield will look a bit shaky once Gerrad, Parker, Lampard and even Barry call it a day.

The EPL should have allowed england to cement it's place at the top table for generations to come as the money brought in makes all the other leagues look like paupers. Trouble is we haven't kept it in the game and it all goes to players. The average salary in the EPL is the reason people want to play here it's well in excess of spain and germany and yet the quality isn't there. Spain adopted structured youth development in the 80's, funnyily enough Horst Wein and Barca, germany followed suit but in their own style. We've just done that this year or 30+ behind spain. England are no longer pioneers we just copy what works elsewhere and hope it fits in here. The lack of money flowing down the pyramid is the main reason we can't produce players and now the EPL is in place there will be much less of that working its way down. Other issues here are in england everything is a secret we don't want anyone knowing what we are doing as if it's special, Barca, Bayern all of them you can just walk in and watch the majority of sessions, no chance here. But this means that idea's etc are shared and so things grow quicker. another factor is the lack of love for science here and the culture of we know it all, when the reality is they know no more than they have experienced. I'm always told technique is the biggest issue in england, well that's a learning issue and means that the methods of teaching or the habits we create in kids are poor. Frank lampard used not to be allowed back in till he'd mastered his trick of the day under his day, he practiced constantly or displayed good habits that allowed him to develop further as he practiced more. The lack of technique is down to the culture created in that people don't do whats needed they do what they want. Very common here these days and not conlcusive to developing to the degree required. Ronaldinho for example spent the best part of 35,000 hours training playing etc between 6-18 or about 8 hours a day. No kid in this country plays for 8 hours a day anymore, they might make that on FIFA but that won't develop them. England is always copying others france in 90's, then spain and now belgium, but why copy when it's such a different game over here??? Engalnd needs it's house sorting from top to toe, starting by bringing it all underone roof and working together, we have more football teams in this country than every other sport combined and yet are pants at the sport they invented. For me all it does is highlight that we've got it so wrong with the EPL and instead of catapulting our game to the next level we're in danger of losing the lot.

[Guest Norbert]

I agree entirely with that post Maji. The money goes staright to players, agents etc. our culture despises intellect and science (even when I was at school you were sneered at as a 'boffin' or whatever if you knew something) and too many kids get on the gravy train too soon, and then end up as overgrown spolit brats who are completely one footed.

I'd scrap the Premier League altogether, and unite 'The football league' and the FA and.Clear out all the blazers and footballing equivilent of overpaid estate agents (the Garry Cook types) Not that this is possible now.

[Oklahoma]

Germany will be the strongest league and national team in the next 10 years.

They have been growing consistently and have a great number of young players that are already better than most players of other national squads.

With the spanish losing quality and not finding replacementes to their ageing national team, Germany will take their place soon.

The germans are always candidates to any football nations competition but I really think they have the best present and future national team.

Here are some players from germany and their ages:

Mario Götze (20)

Mesut Ozil (24)

Thomas Muller (23)

Bastian Schweinsteiger (28)

Mario Gomez (27)

Toni Kroos (23)

Manuel Neuer (27)

Marco Reus (23)

Philipp Lamm (29)

Sami Khedira (26)

Andre Schurrle (22)

Mats Hummels (24)

Holger Badstuber (24)

Lukas Podolski (27)

Lars Bender (23)

Ilkay Gundongan (22)

Jerome Boateng (24)

Benedikt Howedes (25)

Julian Draxler (19)

Per Mertesacker (28)

I doubt any country in Europe has so many top quality players like Germany.

And even if foreign teams buy any of those that still play there, they will find a suitable replacement.

Their youth team is working very well and the younger players have a chance to establish themselves in their teams.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Dunno, I can definitely see Spain staying at the top for years to come. Isco, Thiago Alcantara...., even the likes of Mata and Alba aren't even that old. They just need another CB to come through.

[Audax]

Dunno, I can definitely see Spain staying at the top for years to come. Isco, Thiago Alcantara...., even the likes of Mata and Alba aren't even that old. They just need another CB to come through.

I see it similar, Germany is always good, 3 Euros, 3 World Cups, if they don't win those contests, they are in the semi finals most likely and maybe the Finals as well. So it's not like it's ground breaking to say "Germany is going to be good" for the next 10 years.

I think Italy will have a shot at the next World Cup and so will Germany. For South America, I assume Brazil will have their act together. Beyond that, I'm not too keen to predict anyone. Belgium will go to the World Cup, too small of a country to win but could get past the first knockout round. Oh, yes, and Spain will vie to defend their title.

[LeChuck]

There's someone who doesn't know the master race.

Personally I always enjoy it when a German team and especially the German national team gets thumped.

It's a war thing - the buggers dropped bombs on us.

Generations ago yeah. Any German person I've ever met had been very pleasant. Went to Berlin recently and found it a great place.

[thenodrog]

I agree entirely with that post Maji. The money goes staright to players, agents etc. our culture despises intellect and science (even when I was at school you were sneered at as a 'boffin' or whatever if you knew something) and too many kids get on the gravy train too soon, and then end up as overgrown spolit brats who are completely one footed.

I'd scrap the Premier League altogether, and unite 'The football league' and the FA and.Clear out all the blazers and footballing equivilent of overpaid estate agents (the Garry Cook types) Not that this is possible now.

I don't mind the very top players getting big money it's the Joe Ordinary's getting a fortune that ticks me off. RVP, Suarez, Aguero etc can have their 200k pw as far as I am concerned and fair play to them but what makes me gag is people like our lot earning 20/30/40/50 grand pw when they absolutely crap and worse still don't even try or are happy to sit on their fat arses in the treatment room. Put those 3 on the market and someone will snap em up and pay them even more but put our lot on the market and they'll still be here till their contract runs out. Damned bad / wicked / evil (take your pick) managerial dealing.

[Guest Norbert]

Apart from Mertesaker, that is one hell of a promising list, especially when compared to our likely squad. Spain will have all the fancy possession players, but Germany have players with a great engine and dynamism as well. Sometimes teams like Barca/Spain just lack that power and drive to pelt it up the pitch and scare the other team with pace and a cutting move. They'd rather keep the ball, string 200 passes and try and manouver their way into a chance. The near future is Spain and Germany. And Belgium weirdly enough.

Re Thenodrog: Yep, that is what I also think. Players like Crouch or Taarabt getting £30-60,000 p/w is ridiculous. Your Rooneys, Messis and so on get crazy wages, but they're the big stars that everyone wants to see, and don't coast during games. And I won't even go there about our players. Thanks to the Premier League even 'star' players at our current level are earning unsustainable wages, as the yo-yo clubs try to fend off relegation candidates buying their top goal scorer, or swooping in with a pre-contrct Bosman deal.

[thenodrog]

Germany will be the strongest league and national team in the next 10 years.

They have been growing consistently and have a great number of young players that are already better than most players of other national squads.

With the spanish losing quality and not finding replacementes to their ageing national team, Germany will take their place soon.

The germans are always candidates to any football nations competition but I really think they have the best present and future national team.

Here are some players from germany and their ages:

Mario Götze (20)

Mesut Ozil (24)

Thomas Muller (23)

Bastian Schweinsteiger (28)

Mario Gomez (27)

Toni Kroos (23)

Manuel Neuer (27)

Marco Reus (23)

Philipp Lamm (29)

Sami Khedira (26)

Andre Schurrle (22)

Mats Hummels (24)

Holger Badstuber (24)

Lukas Podolski (27)

Lars Bender (23)

Ilkay Gundongan (22)

Jerome Boateng (24)

Benedikt Howedes (25)

Julian Draxler (19)

Per Mertesacker (28)

I doubt any country in Europe has so many top quality players like Germany.

And even if foreign teams buy any of those that still play there, they will find a suitable replacement.

Their youth team is working very well and the younger players have a chance to establish themselves in their teams.

Dunno, I can definitely see Spain staying at the top for years to come. Isco, Thiago Alcantara...., even the likes of Mata and Alba aren't even that old. They just need another CB to come through.

Thought Belgium were in with a shout these days?

Apart from Mertesaker, that is one hell of a promising list, especially when compared to our likely squad. Spain will have all the fancy possession players, but Germany have players with a great engine and dynamism as well. Sometimes teams like Barca/Spain just lack that power and drive to pelt it up the pitch and scare the other team with pace and a cutting move. They'd rather keep the ball, string 200 passes and try and manouver their way into a chance.

The Germans have the correct attitude and application in spades. Always have had.

[Mike E]

Generations ago yeah. Any German person I've ever met had been very pleasant. Went to Berlin recently and found it a great place.

Not to mention that Germans tend to be pretty ashamed of their history. And no, Jim, it doesn't mean they wish they'd won; it means they regret that Hitler ever gained power.

[Philly13]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2314519/Robert-Lewandowski-signed-Blackburn-Rovers-flight-hadnt-cancelled-Icelandic-ash-cloud.html

Nearly forgot about this.

[Philly13]

Ok my bad someone already posted this

Germany will be the strongest league and national team in the next 10 years.

They have been growing consistently and have a great number of young players that are already better than most players of other national squads.

With the spanish losing quality and not finding replacementes to their ageing national team, Germany will take their place soon.

The germans are always candidates to any football nations competition but I really think they have the best present and future national team.

Here are some players from germany and their ages:

Mario Götze (20)

Mesut Ozil (24)

Thomas Muller (23)

Bastian Schweinsteiger (28)

Mario Gomez (27)

Toni Kroos (23)

Manuel Neuer (27)

Marco Reus (23)

Philipp Lamm (29)

Sami Khedira (26)

Andre Schurrle (22)

Mats Hummels (24)

Holger Badstuber (24)

Lukas Podolski (27)

Lars Bender (23)

Ilkay Gundongan (22)

Jerome Boateng (24)

Benedikt Howedes (25)

Julian Draxler (19)

Per Mertesacker (28)

I doubt any country in Europe has so many top quality players like Germany.

And even if foreign teams buy any of those that still play there, they will find a suitable replacement.

Their youth team is working very well and the younger players have a chance to establish themselves in their teams.

This was a really good list... Except Mertesacker

[Amo]

It's a war thing - the buggers dropped bombs on us.

We asked for it.

[Majiball]

Generations ago yeah. Any German person I've ever met had been very pleasant. Went to Berlin recently and found it a great place.

Come on now it was hardly generations ago and those that where around then have a right to view things differently. My gran is the same she hates the germans and always will, I don't blame her as I never had to live through it all and am glad I didn't. I also have german friends and they're a decent lot, I'm not too keen on their beer though it's one pint then a @#/? everytime.

[jim mk2]

We asked for it.

Sorry, I forgot we invaded Poland.

Come on now it was hardly generations ago and those that where around then have a right to view things differently. My gran is the same she hates the germans and always will, I don't blame her as I never had to live through it all and am glad I didn't. I also have german friends and they're a decent lot, I'm not too keen on their beer though it's one pint then a @#/? everytime.

People should not forget, nor should they forget the atrocities committed by the Japanese.

A Dortmund v Bayern final at Wembley is an appalling prospect and I'm pinning my hopes on one of the Spanish sides to make a comeback next week..

[Amo]

Sorry, I forgot we invaded Poland.

Sorry, I was under the impression it was Britain who declared war on Germany?

Don't offer someone out and then moan if they throw the first punch.

Germans should feel no shame of their history. That's their ancestors doing. What's done is done, and they've paid more than enough for it in "reparations" to Israel.

[Majiball]

Sorry, I forgot we invaded Poland.

People should not forget, nor should they forget the atrocities committed by the Japanese.

A Dortmund v Bayern final at Wembley is an appalling prospect and I'm pinning my hopes on one of the Spanish sides to make a comeback next week..

Both sides committed atrocities, we did nuke the japs.

As Amarillo said it's best left in the past as we could just drag up every war we've ever started. And you all know where I'll take that being Scottish.

[Mike E]

Holding people with contempt for the acts of their ancestors is pretty misguided to say the least. Or should I have hated my Uncle for being the grandson of a Mussolini supporter?

That's the trouble with history, it's all in the past (said someone more intelligent than me).

[thenodrog]

Sorry, I forgot we invaded Poland.

People should not forget, nor should they forget the atrocities committed by the Japanese.

A Dortmund v Bayern final at Wembley is an appalling prospect and I'm pinning my hopes on one of the Spanish sides to make a comeback next week..

History eh?

I know where you are coming from but surely save for Sir Francis Drake, QE1 and our hearts of oak ships we'd have had lots of atrocities committed against our citizens and us all in servitude paying our taxes to Madrid simply because we had binned off Catherine of Aragon and the Catholic church to boot and we'd all be speaking Spanish now, molesting choirboys and not eating fish on a Friday!

Holding people with contempt for the acts of their ancestors is pretty misguided to say the least. Or should I have hated my Uncle for being the grandson of a Mussolini supporter?

Correct. Reperations the allies forced the German people to pay for WW1 were massively too much, led many of them into absolute poverty and starvation and led directly to the rise in power of Adolph Hitler and the Nazi's.

[Audax]

The North Korean team famously was popular in Middlesbrough in 1966, the team was popular and probably eventually persecuted back in North Korea imo. It doesn't mean people were excited and supportive of that government though which seems to remain in power through that family.

Iran has their team, made the world cup in 2002, I'm not really cheering against them, a lot or some of their players have played in the Bundesliga. In fact, Iranians who are refugees, fled their country still cheer on for their "Team Melli", their Iranian team.

The athletes are not necessarily the government.

[Guest Norbert]

I think that North Korean team were basically awarded the same special status as the generals, Kim Il Sung etc. and were national heroes.

I would like the Bundesliga teams to go through as I don't get to see much of German football, and frankly I am bored by the fawning over the Spanish teams by the likes of Clive Tylsdley and Andy 'That's right Clive' Townsend. I know I go on about them, but ITV is absolute toilet at sports coverage, with the exception of the IPL and the Tour De France.

[Audax]

I think that North Korean team were basically awarded the same special status as the generals, Kim Il Sung etc. and were national heroes.

I would like the Bundesliga teams to go through as I don't get to see much of German football, and frankly I am bored by the fawning over the Spanish teams by the likes of Clive Tylsdley and Andy 'That's right Clive' Townsend. I know I go on about them, but ITV is absolute toilet at sports coverage, with the exception of the IPL and the Tour De France.

Some may have been given that high status but the picture may not be so rosy for others.

Some may have tried to defect eventually, note per all of their results, http://eloratings.net/North_Korea.htm after 1966, they don't play any matches until 1971, they may have had some other matches though, hard to think there were no games at all. I think info is out there that it didn't work out well for all the players, maybe for some shown in that movie "the game of their lives" it did.

[Guest Norbert]

True. The heroic goalie and the goal scorer probably did (relatively) well, but other membersprobably stagnated and suffered hardship. They probably did better than the manager who led the last North Korean team though who is probably in some gulag somewhere.

[T4E]

You reckon?

I think if Bayern Munich make at least the final this year then they can claim to be the best right now as that would be two finals in a row. Barca have got some way to go to separate themselves as the best in the world yet.

I think we now know the answer.