[Archived] The arabs are revolting

[jim mk2]

Our standing in the world took a huge hit last night and could take years to rebuild. We look weak in the eyes of many now, my only hope is that a strike continues ahead by the US.

At least Cameron had a stance on what he felt was the right thing to do and stuck to it. Miliband? You only have to read what has been said in the papers today on his flip flopping for political gain:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100233350/miliband-was-governed-by-narrow-political-interests-not-the-national-interests-or-those-of-syrian-children/

I think that shows the lengths Miliband will go to score political gain from a deeply troubling situation.

Cameron was correct to go for military action but the way he went about it was wrong.

Miliband was reflecting the views of the country it seems by requiring all the evidence to be presented first.

That comment has to be balanced by the facty that the majority of British people dont want to pay for the NHS either.

Complete b*llocks as always.

[thenodrog]

It wasn't Milliband that defeated Cameron, it was Cameron's inability to get the backing of his own MP's.

This morning the Syrian government and the Russians have both issued statements welcoming the British position.

Bit of a skewed result as one would expect from our political system. Notwithstanding that guilt has not been apportioned to one side or the other which is fundamental to the issue I'd imagine a large section of the opposition MP's primarily voted against the govt with the issue of secondary concern. .... or has life just made me cynical?

[thenodrog]

Complete b*llocks as always.

Is it? How many even pay prescription charges in Blackburn do you think?

[T.J.Newton]

Whats with the 91 Mps that where "absent" from the vote, does that mean they couldn't be arsed turning up to vote?

[T.J.Newton]

Is it? How many even pay prescription charges in Blackburn do you think?

I usually do pay, even though I know full well I could get away with not paying simply by ticking any of the boxes on the back of the prescription as they never check, maybe chemists should be made to check that everything is correct and always ask for to see prescription exemption certificates, etc.(I bet they'd then get at least a quarter more people paying, which im guessing would add up to quite a lot of £££)

p.s.(I say "usually" as there is the odd time when ive been a bit skint and I haven't paid when I should have, but if they're not gonna check!)

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

There's 2 main issues for me on the Syria vote:

1. Do we want to carry on helping police the world?

On the one hand it provides a deterrent to people committing atrocities and could be argued is the morally right thing to do. On the other hand it can cause unforeseen disastrous consequences and its motives are subject to much scepticism and criticism from conspiracy nuts, haters of the west and stoic pacifists. Of which we've got more than our fair share of all 3 of those groups in this country.

My personal opinion is that if we have the money, power and technology, we have a moral obligation to discourage atrocities using force. However if its going to produce the kind of manic outrage from a good percentage of people in this country that the Iraq war did then its not worth the effort.

2. What's in our best interests?

Seems to me staying out of it is, the consequences of either side winning aren't great. But I suppose the Assad regime would pose less of a threat to the west. Better the devil you know and all that. I assume that's what is dictating Russia's behaviour, pure self-interest.

So in conclusion it feels dirty and cowardly just looking away but I'm not gonna bother about it. Potential further deaths in chemical weapons attacks are on the conscience of the people against action.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Staying out is the best decision for the UK.

Even without thinking about what kind of government comes next in Syria, once we start dropping bombs the internet will be flooded with pictures of dead Syrian women and children, but now instead of pointing the finger at Assad the captions will talk about the evil Brits and Yanks. Even if a government we don't like takes control they won't be a genuine threat, there are only a handful of conventional states in the world that cold harbour realistic thoughts of war with Britain, and they are all either our allies, broke or both.

If the rest of the world wants to take action then that's their problem, but I'd also be very wary if I were an American. Apart from that, the biggest cheerleaders for intervention are Turkey and Saudi Arabia but we sell them enough military hardware, let them use it.

[thenodrog]

I usually do pay, even though I know full well I could get away with not paying simply by ticking any of the boxes on the back of the prescription as they never check, maybe chemists should be made to check that everything is correct and always ask for to see prescription exemption certificates, etc.(I bet they'd then get at least a quarter more people paying, which im guessing would add up to quite a lot of £££)

p.s.(I say "usually" as there is the odd time when ive been a bit skint and I haven't paid when I should have, but if they're not gonna check!)

Everybody should pay and thats that. The onus would then be on those who are exempted to then claim it back. The current system is wide open to abuse.

Staying out is the best decision for the UK.

Even without thinking about what kind of government comes next in Syria, once we start dropping bombs the internet will be flooded with pictures of dead Syrian women and children, but now instead of pointing the finger at Assad the captions will talk about the evil Brits and Yanks. Even if a government we don't like takes control they won't be a genuine threat, there are only a handful of conventional states in the world that cold harbour realistic thoughts of war with Britain, and they are all either our allies, broke or both.

If the rest of the world wants to take action then that's their problem, but I'd also be very wary if I were an American. Apart from that, the biggest cheerleaders for intervention are Turkey and Saudi Arabia but we sell them enough military hardware, let them use it.

Precisely. It's an Arab situation so let the arabs sort it out. If they won't then imo the onus then falls on the Russians cos it's their weaponry that is being employed on the civilian population. The USa and GB etc come a long way down the list.

[jim mk2]

Everybody should pay and thats that. The onus would then be on those who are exempted to then claim it back. The current system is wide open to abuse.

Rather like the tax system don't you think ?

[Audax]

Obama's speaking, think Syria will get an airstrike. Military Targets. Retaliation. Obama will go to Congress for Authorization. So it will be debated in congress.

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A lot of people don't want the US to do an airstrike because it might help out the rebels who have some Al Qaeda members. That's a sticking point with me too but obviously, Assad should not get away with this trash if he/they did this.

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Difficult situation, too, you can't really bomb chemical weapons stockpiles because that could open them up to contaminating the area.

[Audax]

Here's where the gas attack occured. Seems rather widespread to be an "accident" as some want to say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23916752

The act was evil and despicable if this is on purpose. We will see how this develops.

[T.J.Newton]

one wrong airstrike missile target could kill more innocents than the chemical weapons killed, its just an absurd world we are living in.

[Audax]

one wrong airstrike missile target could kill more innocents than the chemical weapons killed, its just an absurd world we are living in.

Agree, well, not exactly, this poisonous gas incident killed over a thousand, 1300, bad but compared to the total war, I've heard 70,000 or more killed in the last 3 years, It's unfathomable of how living in a country like that would be.

Anyway, I caught Obama's speech, at first it sounded like he was going to strike but then he added on he'll first let congress debate it, should be interesting.

Anyway, Congress can hold him back apparently, mixed feelings on this.

Those Al Qaeda members likewise are capable of very dastardly deeds as well.

[Steve Moss]

USA is beefing up its forces in Red Sea and Mediterranean.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/idCABRE9800IT20130901?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

[Audax]

Saw this story posted but comments say fluoride is common, in water, toothpaste. Don't know what to make of this but it's interesting.

Revealed: Britain sold nerve gas chemicals to Syria 10 months after war began

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/britain-sold-nerve-gas-chemicals-2242520

BRITAIN allowed firms to sell chemicals to Syria capable of being used to make nerve gas, the Sunday Mail can reveal today.

Export licences for potassium fluoride and sodium fluoride were granted months after the bloody civil war in the Middle East began.

The chemical is capable of being used to make weapons such as sarin, thought to be the nerve gas used in the attack on a rebel-held Damascus suburb which killed nearly 1500 people, including 426 children, 10 days ago.

[Guest Norbert]

I do wonder what way this debate in Congress will go. I bet there will be a few Republicans opposing it just because it is Obama putting it forward. No doubt that nutbox Alex Jones (not the Welsh one) will be claiming this is a march to war so the New World Order/Free Masons/Space Lizards can take over the middle east and it's oil.

[JAL]

When our British children have a bleak future, as young east europeans flood into the country snapping up any low paid jobs and we want to go to war with a country so far away that doesnt affect us in any way shape or form.

Lets get our country sorted and on the right track first before we can begin to crticise others for what they may do.

[Steve Moss]

I do wonder what way this debate in Congress will go. I bet there will be a few Republicans opposing it just because it is Obama putting it forward. No doubt that nutbox Alex Jones (not the Welsh one) will be claiming this is a march to war so the New World Order/Free Masons/Space Lizards can take over the middle east and it's oil.

A few Republicans opposed the Iraq War when Bush was President.

More than a few will probably oppose Obama's Syrian War resolution. For three reasons I can think of: 1) The same Republicans who opposed the Iraq War or their successors (a strain of isolationism does run through the party); 2) Bush seemed more aggressive and, therefore, inspires more confidence as a war leader than does Obama (if we're going to war, I'd trust a cowboy to bring home a win more than a professor); and, 3) Bush spent a lot of time making the case and winning allegiances, Obama hasn't and so the ground has not been properly laid for an overwhelming majority.

[Guest Norbert]

It does seem a bit off the cuff, this desire for war. Bush never inspired me in any way, but then his politics were not my sort of thing in any way. He was strong willed, but also a complete moron, who had smarter people creating fake evidence and forgetting awkward facts (e.g. Rumsfeld's role in selling these weapons in the 80's) to make the case for war in Iraq. This sudden move has a look of a knee jerk reaction to the latest controversy. This war has been going on for years, and if they wanted to stop it, they'd have got stuck in earlier.

Russia will block any UN backed action, so it'll be up to USA, France and whoever to finish Assad. Maybe we should tell Putin Assad and his government are all gay trannys.

[Audax]

CNN actually an interview with a "General" of the FSA, Free Syrian Army and he was congenial, friendly as could be.

I'll tell you,not just from Alex Jones but we can't know if a news story is real or what has happened in a lot of these cases.

Take this from the Daily Telegraph from about a week ago:

Islamists massacre 450 Kurds in Syria- http://my.telegraph.co.uk/debatableopinion/debatableopinion/4/islamists-massacre-450-kurds-in-syria/

But I can't know if this is true.

Then, I think it is important to remember Daddy Assad, the prior ruler was very ironfisted:

Before we dive into the theories, you have to understand that the Syrian government really overreacted when peaceful protests started in mid-2011, slaughtering civilians unapologetically, which was a big part of how things escalated as quickly as they did. Assad learned this from his father. In 1982, Assad’s father and then-dictator Hafez al-Assad responded to a Muslim Brotherhood-led uprising in the city of Hama by leveling entire neighborhoods. He killed thousands of civilians, many of whom had nothing to do with the uprising. But it worked, and it looks like the younger Assad tried to reproduce it. His failure made the descent into chaos much worse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/08/29/9-questions-about-syria-you-were-too-embarrassed-to-ask/

"He killed thousands of civilians", I think the massacre killed 25,000 back in 1982.

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So I'd be wary about going in, I'm also wary of what we hear on the news.

I had seen how their are about 5 or 6 ships, aircraft carriers off the Syrian Coast in the Mediterranean, they look very formidable.

And the French say their intelligence basically tells them the Assad regime ordered the gas attack.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/03/world/middleeast/french-release-intelligence-tying-assad-government-to-chemical-weapons.html

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I and we don't know where the chem weapons come from, if they have a lot. But Satellite photos from Iraq years ago:

It is what it is, I try to see it all neutrally and fairly. And those trucks some would say go to Syria. A lot of trucks.

[thenodrog]

Getting involved in the middle east is like sticking your hand into a bag full of fish hooks. Bloody difficult to extricate without lots of damage.