[Archived] Hillsborough

[CrazyIvan]

To anyone still saying the fans were to blame for this terrible event, you really REALLY must read the report. End to end. It should, and could have been prevented 8 YEARS earlier. Not 8 hours or 8 minutes, 8 YEARS. This entire thing is an object lesson in how pre-conceived ideas and prejudice can directly influence behaviour to the utter detriment of innocent victims. Those victims paid with their lives. Why? Total and utter incompetence? Yes. Utter disregard for humanity? Yes, absolutely. This is not just the fault of the South Yorkshire Police, it's the fault of the Ambulance service, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (whose main concern was saving money), Sheffield Council and the Football Association for not recognising previous serious issues at Hillsborough. In the end, the South Yorkshire Police must take the majority of responsibility as their actions (or lack of) directly resulted in people dying.

That is JUST the start.

The utter disgust I personally feel at the treatment of Liverpool Football fans by the press, the Police (and each commission previously set up) I find hard to describe. The SYP knew at the very moment the disaster happened who was responsible and why. The senior officers of that particular force chose to totally smear each and every individual Liverpool fan who was at that ground that day. They then chose to cover up every single piece of evidence to the contrary which, fortunately, was and is impossible. The gutter press were complicit in this entire thing when they should have done their jobs and looked at the evidence. I'm not going to describe each despicable step that was taken to bury this, you can read it yourself. Everyone should and then make their own mind up.

[Jock]

To anyone still saying the fans were to blame for this terrible event, you really REALLY must read the report. End to end. It should, and could have been prevented 8 YEARS earlier. Not 8 hours or 8 minutes, 8 YEARS. This entire thing is an object lesson in how pre-conceived ideas and prejudice can directly influence behaviour to the utter detriment of innocent victims. Those victims paid with their lives. Why? Total and utter incompetence? Yes. Utter disregard for humanity? Yes, absolutely. This is not just the fault of the South Yorkshire Police, it's the fault of the Ambulance service, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (whose main concern was saving money), Sheffield Council and the Football Association for not recognising previous serious issues at Hillsborough. In the end, the South Yorkshire Police must take the majority of responsibility as their actions (or lack of) directly resulted in people dying.

That is JUST the start.

The utter disgust I personally feel at the treatment of Liverpool Football fans by the press, the Police (and each commission previously set up) I find hard to describe. The SYP knew at the very moment the disaster happened who was responsible and why. The senior officers of that particular force chose to totally smear each and every individual Liverpool fan who was at that ground that day. They then chose to cover up every single piece of evidence to the contrary which, fortunately, was and is impossible. The gutter press were complicit in this entire thing when they should have done their jobs and looked at the evidence. I'm not going to describe each despicable step that was taken to bury this, you can read it yourself. Everyone should and then make their own mind up.

Maybe its taken so long for the truth to come out because they were waiting for all main parties to be dead?

The illuminati still rule and most of us are seen as plebs.

[CrazyIvan]

Maybe its taken so long for the truth to come out because they were waiting for all main parties to be dead?

The illuminati still rule and most of us are seen as plebs.

Which, in itself, is criminal. From the individual officers who did their best on that day, reported honestly afterwards and got censored and censured, to the fans who told the truth but were ignored, to the mountain of physical evidence, this entire episode is a horrific example of the complete abuse of power that exists even today. Remember the old axiom, believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see.

As for the illuminati...

[Steve Moss]

If law enforcement officers doctored reports and gave false testimony, they should be imprisoned. The public must trust law enforcement and law enforcement must be worthy of that trust. Any breach of trust must be dealt with swiftly and decisively.

But though law enforcement and the owners may have contributed to the deaths and injuries, it is fairly clear the fans themselves also played a role. I'm not intending to be cruel, but this is an event where all parties are to blame and I hope that enough has been learned so that similar tragedies can be avoided.

[SouthAussieRover]

Have you read the report Steve?

I'm working my way through it.

There is a brief summary available and it begins with:

Chapter 1. 1981–1989: unheeded warnings, the seeds of disaster

Based on documents disclosed to the Panel, this chapter assesses the impact of the 1981 crush on crowd safety at Hillsborough. It considers the decisions taken between 1981 and 1989 by SWFC, its safety consultants, the local authority (Sheffield City Council) and the 6

South Yorkshire Police (SYP) regarding modifications to the Leppings Lane terrace and their consequences for the safe management of the crowd. It is evident from the documents disclosed to the Panel that the safety of the crowd admitted to the terrace was compromised at every level: access to the turnstiles from the public highway; the condition and adequacy of the turnstiles; the management of the crowd by SYP and the SWFC stewards; alterations to the terrace, particularly the construction of pens; the condition and placement of crush barriers; access to the central pens via a tunnel descending at a 1 in 6 gradient; emergency egress from the pens via small gates in the perimeter fence; and lack of precise monitoring of crowd capacity within the pens. These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in 1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable.

Furthermore in chapter 2 point 25:

25. From the documents provided to the Panel it is clear that the crush at the Leppings Lane turnstiles outside the stadium was not caused by fans arriving ‘late’ for the kick-off. The turnstiles were inadequate to process the crowd safely, and the rate of entry insufficient to prevent a dangerous build-up of people outside the ground.

Chapter 3 provides interesting information of further deficiences in the policing that day....

I really do think you should read the report if you havent already.

Also listen to PM Cameron's statement to Parliament if you haven't already:

[jim mk2]

, it is fairly clear the fans themselves also played a role. I'm not intending to be cruel, but this is an event where all parties are to blame

The fans were not to blame - read the report.

[colin]

Good post Scott.

One one hand we have the complete incompetance of the authorities on the day. The Taylor Report clearly identified how completely and utterly the authorities failed in their responsibilities . The FA alloctcad the smaller away end to the Liverpool fans despite they having more numbers; Hillsbough didn't have a safety certificate; South Yorkshire Police were useless.

On the other hand

Now we have the following report that the South Yorkshire Police actively tried to cover up their incompetance by smearing the supporters for being drunkl.

They took blood tests for alchhol levels from 10 year -olds. They then checked the dead for criminlal records.

It's beyond belief

[CrazyIvan]

If law enforcement officers doctored reports and gave false testimony, they should be imprisoned. The public must trust law enforcement and law enforcement must be worthy of that trust. Any breach of trust must be dealt with swiftly and decisively.

But though law enforcement and the owners may have contributed to the deaths and injuries, it is fairly clear the fans themselves also played a role. I'm not intending to be cruel, but this is an event where all parties are to blame and I hope that enough has been learned so that similar tragedies can be avoided.

That used to be my view as well. Having read this report and seen the documented evidence of how the stand 'pens' were designed (to limit cost) and then changed post the 1981 incident (which actually made things much worse) the fans could not do anything themselves to stop this situation occurring. Let me put it this way, this could have been any crowd at any event and the way this particular situation unfolded, the EXACT same result would have ensued. The fans had no way of getting out of the central two pens once they were in there, they had nowhere to go. They couldn't go sideways as they could in 1981 when there were still serious injuries - Spurs V Wolves in this case - because of the creation of these 'pens'. The way the crowd was controlled previously meant that when the central pens were full, the police and stewards closed the gates so the remaining fans could go into the two outside pens. We are talking about regular football matches here as well where the away fans went into this caged area rather than the Liverpool V Forest game where this was a much greater volume of fans.

Put yourself in the average fan arriving at a game where you don't know the ground, you don't know the stands and you certainly don't know the custom of filling one area before others. You arrive fairly late due to traffic issues and other factors and all your fellow fans are arriving at the same time. You don't know exactly where you are going so you follow the crowd and rely on crowd control staff to direct you and keep you safe.

So, you get close to the ground. 24,000 of you trying to get through 23 knackered old turnstiles that keep jamming and failing in an area designed for maybe 4,000 or so. A log-jam builds up and people are starting to get crushed because no-one is directing fans anywhere and everyone is late. Kick-off is only minutes away. So, the Police decide to open the gates to avoid serious injury. They allow the fans, eager to avoid missing kick-off, through into the ground unchecked. You walk through the open gate, people all around you and all wanting to get to the same place eager to get in place. They don't know where they are going and neither do you.

You've never been here before and stands are always crowded. You end up close to the front, with a mass of people still coming through the gates all the way back, through the tunnel and out the entrance gates behind you. It gets very cosy. Then it becomes uncomfortable and you start shouting for people at the back not to push forward. The problem is no-one can hear you. Football crowds are noisy at the best of times. What would normally of happened is that a policeman or steward, once the two central pens were regarded as full (a guess at the best of times), would close the gates and re-direct the remaining fans to the outside pens. Nobody does this. The fans coming in don't know about the extra pens as they can only really see what is in front of them and think they can get to a comfortable spot behind the goal somewhere. Little do they know they can't spread out behind the goal. Little do they know the two pens are already full.

So, you can't shout any more as the breath is being crushed out of you. Fans know there is something wrong but nobody wants to know outside of the stand. They just think there is 'something' going on. Some fans try to get out but get pushed back. Now things go black and you pass out. Minutes later, people finally realise there is something seriously wrong. They open the small gates and try and pull fans out over the top of the fencing. Nobody calls the ambulances outside the ground and one, literally one, gets in. Meanwhile, you get pulled out by fellow fans and they try and help you. The medical staff are outside the ground and they are the ones who could save your life but they know nothing of the situation. By the time you could have been helped, you are still unconscious lying on the pitch.

3:15 The magic time, according to the original report, where you are apparently already dead. Only you are not. You could have been saved at this point still but no-one comes to help.

So, it's the fans fault? Should they have been able to see, from the back of the stand, what was happening at the front? Should they have heard the cries for help? To say this is unrealistic is an understatement. When you go to an event, any event, you rely on the professional people controlling and directing the crowd for your safety and they rely on their superiors to help them manage the people who are merely attending the event. You would expect them to do their jobs properly so you remain safe and well. That just did not happen and in fact the exact opposite did.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Out of the tiny minority of people throughout the internet that I've encountered who are proportioning some blame to the fans, so far none of them have actually read the report.

[DE.]

Having read the report I have to agree the fans cannot be held to blame in any way.

They trusted the football authorities and the police to keep them safe - they were failed spectacularly by both parties and as a result 96 people lost their lives in a brutal manner and thousands were left emotionally scarred for life.

[Stuart]

CrazyIvan. I have to say your post is one most vivid I've read on the subject.

Thanks for posting.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

CrazyIvan. I have to say your post is one most vivid I've read on the subject.

Thanks for posting.

I agree, excellent summation of the situation. Thanks for that Ivan.

[wilyrover]

As I remember at the the time, the world seemed to be against Liverpool because of Heysel. Even to this day, Juve fans - not the club - still refuse to accept an apology from Liverpool. Yet they cannot continue to go on saying they were blameless. Some of their hooligans were pelting Liverpool fans with missiles and this caused the reaction which led to the horror we saw on TV.

Both Heysel and Hillsborough were the fault of the police, not helped by unsuitable venues. Both sets of fans didn't help themselves. I used to travel into Liverpool by train regularly and saw grafitti near Edge Hill saying Munich 58 and Heysel 85 together, like some kind of sick badge of honour. Then there was the appalling banner - in English - at Juve, saying 'There is a God' following Hillsborough.

Our media covered the Heysal trial, which they used to not only beat Liverpool fans, but all of us as a collective group of English pariahs. It got us a European ban and our media blamed Liverpool even more. Yet what the media forgot, in their haste to put the blame on somebody for years of appalling behaviour by England and English fans abroad, was ordinary and decent fans were killed by the authorities mishandling of football matches - a tradition which goes back over 100 years. Hillsborough, at the time, was the latest in many incidents of ordinary fans dying at football matches. These include Ibrox (twice), Bolton, Bradford and Hillsborough itself. Yet what will they be saying in the media next week? All this health & safety, who needs it? Tell that to the families of the Hillsborough victims.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Good post Scotty. We've discussed this here several times and now we have the report that should lead to prosecutions. But it should also lead to new revelations about how politicians and civil servants played their part in this. And it should lead to a few people on this Board offering a few words of contrition about how they've mistakenly bought the lies about Liverpool fans. Why most of us could see this and they couldn't is beyond me.

[Andy]

I personally believe NO one group was responsible for what happened that sad day..a terrible culmination of different factors.

I'm led to believe the reason the gates were opened was to relieve the awful crush OUTSIDE the Leppings Lane Entrance.

As for the Police 'doctoring' evidence....who can you trust now?

I agree with your opinion in that no single person or group was responsible for the disaster, but a culmination of a number of factors and wrong decisions.

I spent a few years in South Yorkshire Police and was based at Hillsborough (Hammerton Road).

I had the fortunate to speak with some of the old guard, who were there that fateful day and I can tell you that they were as traumatised by the events as much as any other spectators that day and the overwhelming feeling was one of helplessness as things were unfolding in front of them.

Any cover up would have been conducted by the seniors in the force and it is those who should absolutely be brought to justice.

[ABBEY]

without being insensitive surley its time to let them all rest in peace.

[Pedro]

without being insensitive surley its time to let them all rest in peace.

I think they will when heads begin to roll and the people who deserved to be smeared with blame are punished, Abbey.

[den]

I think that if there was one decision that was taken that meant that so many fans would die, it was the decision to erect the lateral fences. Previous problems with crushing in the Leppings Lane stand were basically alleviated to a large extent because the fans were able to move sideways. Once those fences were erected, the other decisions/indecisions inevitably meant the outcome was going to be so much worse than it otherwise would have been.

Very sad.

[adopted scouser]

Lovely tribute at Goodison tonight, two kids holding hands in red and blue kits, scoreboard reading 'Merseyside United', brill

[Blue n White Rover]

Will Blackburn Rovers be holding a tribute for the 96 tonight?

Bristol City had YNWA playing prior to the game which I thought was a lovely touch. Would be great if Rovers did something similar tonight.

[Paul]

There was a brief message displayed on the big screen which seemed to run in with the adverts. Only glimpsed it a couple of times as I was watching the game

[Tom]

There was a brief message displayed on the big screen which seemed to run in with the adverts. Only glimpsed it a couple of times as I was watching the game

Also you'll never walk alone was played ten minutes before kick off

[Paul]

Walked in as we kicked off.

[A cup of beans]

Sky's 'The Footballers Football Show' covered Hillsborough in depth last night.

Really moving accounts.

[den]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/former-sun-editor-kelvin-mackenzie-1344852?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter