[Archived] sam glad to be out of brfc

[Silencio]

But surely you agree that there will have been a manager out there who could have kept us up who wasn't Allardyce. I'm talking off the top of my head, it isn't like I've held a full interview process and advertised the post. There'll have been many we'd never even think of. This is my point. There will have been someone. There'd be nobody to guarantee our safety, but then there never is. But there would have been a hell of a lot who could have done better than Kean.

there probably was a manager in the world who could have done but not so many and you could say that for 99 per cent of clubs at any time. anyhow, why bother when we were making progress with a proven manager as it was? for the first time ever it seems like your backtracking...

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

yoda's been trippin' balls lately. It's no wonder you can't make hide nor hair of his posts.

As for me, I've made no secret of my distaste for Sam's football. Looked like it was improving at one stage but then the following season we reverted to type. Sick to death of watching us scrap it into touch so Pedersen could launch another one of those long-winded throws. Watching Rovers had become nothing but a perfunctory experience. Sure, results weren't bad (7-1 humiliation aside) but it didn't evoke any sort of passion.

Anyway, if I was an ambitious owner with genuine intentions for the club, then Sam would've gone. Not that I would've sacked him. His contract was up in six months. Why waste the money and destabilize the club mid-season? I would've bided my time until the football was over, thanked him for his work and waved him off, giving myself the entire summer to find a suitable replacement who could get results and entertain the fans once in awhile. It's the least I could do.

It was exactly the same throughout. This improving then going downhill again concept was invented by his critics to spare themselves the temporary embarassment of actually having a go at a manager who finished 10th. Yeah, scrap it into touch so Pedersen could do a long throw in, that was our tactic wasn't it? Thats what I remember us always scoring off. Or back in reality, we scored about twice in 18 months from doing that, so it wasn't our tactic at all. But god forbid we take long throws in attacking positions, such things must be avoided at all costs in exchange for tight passing near the touchline before we run it out of touch, hit the first man with a pressurised cross or end up backtracking to the halfway line.

It amazes me that some people can still go on about boredom, passion and entertainment under Allardyce after enduring the slow hell of the last 2 years. Which would you honestly rather have? About 10,000 fans would obviously prefer the former if attendance is anything to go off. But of course there was always the mythical 3rd option, hiring a clone of Mark Hughes. Never mind that circumstances at the club were considerably more difficult under Sam than under Hughes, with owners on the verge of selling and who were trying to recoup as much of their investment as they could as quickly as they could. I'm sure top class managers would have been falling over each other for the job.

I find myself chuckling bitterly at the notion that some of our fans thought we were too good for a manager of Allardyce's calibre. Its cringingly embarassing. No wonder other fans think the title win went straight to our heads.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Surely this whole thread is a moot point? Venky's were never going to keep him as their head had been turned by Voldemort and Sam would never have stayed working for them anyway.

I am in the camp of having become bored and disinterested under his reign. I didn't enjoy watching it but that doesn't automatically equate to not understanding others might have done. I don't like watching Tom Cruise movies either but the fact that millions do and he is very successful does not make me like watching his films

[Amo]

It was exactly the same throughout. This improving then going downhill again concept was invented by his critics to spare themselves the temporary embarassment of actually having a go at a manager who finished 10th. Yeah, scrap it into touch so Pedersen could do a long throw in, that was our tactic wasn't it? Thats what I remember us always scoring off. Or back in reality, we scored about twice in 18 months from doing that, so it wasn't our tactic at all. But god forbid we take long throws in attacking positions, such things must be avoided at all costs in exchange for tight passing near the touchline before we run it out of touch, hit the first man with a pressurised cross or end up backtracking to the halfway line.

It amazes me that some people can still go on about boredom, passion and entertainment under Allardyce after enduring the slow hell of the last 2 years. Which would you honestly rather have? About 10,000 fans would obviously prefer the former if attendance is anything to go off. But of course there was always the mythical 3rd option, hiring a clone of Mark Hughes. Never mind that circumstances at the club were considerably more difficult under Sam than under Hughes, with owners on the verge of selling and who were trying to recoup as much of their investment as they could as quickly as they could. I'm sure top class managers would have been falling over each other for the job.

I find myself chuckling bitterly at the notion that some of our fans thought we were too good for a manager of Allardyce's calibre. Its cringingly embarassing. No wonder other fans think the title win went straight to our heads.

Yes, the Pedersen throws were downright useless, so why we persisted with them I will never know.

I'm going to dismiss the rest of your post, as it's the usual strawman arguments attributed to any debate about the special one. Trust me, I've heard them all.

[SydneyRover]

When it comes down to it, I would like anyone who has expressed anti Sam opinions in this thread to answer me this:

Since around 2000 when the really big money started flowing around certain PL clubs and the gap between rich and poor got so much wider, name me which managers have routinely, year after year, consistently got their clubs into comfortable mid table positions or higher on the sort of budget Sam was operating on at Ewood.

God knows there was plenty of managers who worked on budgets in that time.

I've got:

Sam Allardyce (never got involved in a relegation scrap since his first two seasons at Bolton after he himself got them promoted, took Bolton to within a few points of a Champions League place one season, got to League Cup final with them, got sacked at Newcastle despite being comfortably mid table, over the two calendar years with Rovers we were the 10th best side in the League).

Tony Pulis: Has done a great job with Stoke, money has been flowing more than Sam ever got with us though due to the generosity of Peter Coates)

Mark Hughes: We all know about him, did a great job with us, good job with Fulham too, however is doing pretty terribly with QPR right now, and this will likely be a bigger black mark on his record than Allardyce ever got.

Also, it's well worth noting two things about Hughes' time with us:

1. In his early years when he achieved his greatest successes with us, Manchester City were absolutely nowhere, Aston Villa hadn't yet been bought by Randy Lerner and weren't the same force they were until about two years ago when the money dried up and Spurs were also badly mismanaged for a while too and finished below us in mid table. All those clubs became much stronger later on in Hughes' reign and in City's case, after it. This basically meant we couldn't hope to finish as high under Sam as the 6th place we got under Hughes, it was a different league.

2. The style of play was arguably better early on when Bellamy was around and Tugay still had his legs. I remember the style of play getting considerably worse later on - not that I cared, we were still getting results.

Alan Curbishley: Did really well with Charlton and saved West Ham from relegation, but seems to only want to take jobs in London.

Apart from those four, who else? O'Neill? He's had big budgets at Villa and Sunderland and left Leicester in 2000. Coyle? Holloway?

Out of those four, three are traditionally associated with an unattractive style of play and even Hughes I would say if you ask most non Rovers fans is too.

So you guys who say that getting rid of Allardyce and appointing someone else who could get the same results with more attractive football on the same budget are basically showing how little you know about the game.

You were basically asking for something that no manager had really consistently achieved (except possibly Hughes) in over a decade of Premier League football since the massive financial disparities came into play.

Talk about unrealistic expectations.

[Amo]

You've missed the point of the discussion entirely.

Was Allardyce a necessary evil for a cash-strapped (or rather cash-denied) Walker Trust-era Rovers? Without doubt. I still believe there were managers up to the task but we were in no position to gamble after the Ince debacle and the parsimonious investment of the Trust.

People are simply expressing what *they* would do if they were in Venky's position and took over the reins. Turning this into another Allardyce fan-tribute is decidedly trite and shamefully predictable.

[SydneyRover]

You've missed the point of the discussion entirely.

Was Allardyce a necessary evil for a cash-strapped (or rather cash-denied) Walker Trust-era Rovers? Without doubt. I still believe there were managers up to the task but we were in no position to gamble after the Ince debacle and the parsimonious investment of the Trust.

People are simply expressing what *they* would do if they were in Venky's position and took over the reins. Turning this into another Allardyce fan-tribute is decidedly trite and shamefully predictable.

But it was clear from the outset when Venky's were making ridiculous claims of Champions League on a 5m budget and "leasing" players that although they might be splashing out a bit more than the Trust, we would still be very much in a similar financial league to what we were before, and that we couldn't compete financially with United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Spurs and even the likes of Everton (who whilst Moyes has done an amazing job have still spent a lot more than us over the last few years).

So really we should have had similar thoughts in terms of finding the best manager on the budget we had as we did before Venky's took charge.

And many people on here have claimed there's numerous other managers who did what Sam did resultswise whilst playing significantly better football. I think I've just demonstrated that was a ridiculous assumption to make.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Shamefully predictable eh? Erm pot, I mean topman, your appearance on these threads to do some Allardyce bashing is as predictable as it gets. They seem to happen now about every 6 months, the intervening 6 months has invariably piled yet more evidence on the side favouring him as West Ham continue to rise and we continue to plummet, and your opinion never alters one jot. Sure you spend more time ignoring points now in favour of sarcastic comments about Sam worship, but that's about it as far as your own unpredictability goes.

And Sydney that manager run-down was a superb post with flawless logic.

[braddock]

When did I make a comment about inequalities and why would it be a laugh?

Note I did not generalise you I was specific, I questioned if you were from Rishton, you are not, I was correct.

Why do you keep wanting me to discuss black people and other types (your words), explain exactly what you mean?

There must have been a reason why you don't think I'm from Rishton. Please enlighten me with that and we'll all know a little bit more about what you did mean.

My theory is that if you are going to make judgements about me saying I can't be from Rishton based on what I have said on here and my grammar (regardless of whether you were right or wrong) is a generalisation, and that thread (containing many themes, not just race) is perfect for posters to make generalised statements and look stupid in the process.

Do you understand?

[jim mk2]

Chris Samba article in the Telegraph on racism but some good quotes on Allardyce.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9631966/Christopher-Samba-says-racism-is-everywhere-as-he-throws-weight-behind-new-black-players-union.html

Samba left Ewood in February, having asked for a “divorce” from the Venky’s, claiming the Indian chicken sellers “don’t understand football”. He reflected last night: “Of course I was sad what happened at Blackburn. We were doing well under Mark Hughes, doing well under Sam. We were going places. Blackburn are not one of the biggest clubs in English football but they were managing to be in the top 10.

“Then people [Venky’s] made some changes that were unsettling. It was their club so they can do what they want. It is sad that a couple of people who had the power to do good or wrong but it seems they have done wrong.

"A long time ago, I said all these bad things could happen. I wasn’t in the wrong. It’s bad for the English football culture. Blackburn have been a traditional English club for so many years, a big family club.

“Changing the manager [Allardyce] was not the right thing to do. They paid for it. They got relegated. It is very sad for the club. It is a club I still follow. I hope the club find a way to get back in to the Premier League. They need to be in the Premier League.”

If players and 99% of fans can see it why can't the few idiots on here ?

[yoda]

Chris Samba article in the Telegraph on racism but some good quotes on Allardyce.

http://www.telegraph...yers-union.html

Samba left Ewood in February, having asked for a “divorce” from the Venky’s, claiming the Indian chicken sellers “don’t understand football”. He reflected last night: “Of course I was sad what happened at Blackburn. We were doing well under Mark Hughes, doing well under Sam. We were going places. Blackburn are not one of the biggest clubs in English football but they were managing to be in the top 10.

“Then people [Venky’s] made some changes that were unsettling. It was their club so they can do what they want. It is sad that a couple of people who had the power to do good or wrong but it seems they have done wrong.

"A long time ago, I said all these bad things could happen. I wasn’t in the wrong. It’s bad for the English football culture. Blackburn have been a traditional English club for so many years, a big family club.

“Changing the manager [Allardyce] was not the right thing to do. They paid for it. They got relegated. It is very sad for the club. It is a club I still follow. I hope the club find a way to get back in to the Premier League. They need to be in the Premier League.”

If players and 99% of fans can see it why can't the few idiots on here ?

Ego I think Jim

[LeChuck]

If players and 99% of fans can see it why can't the few idiots on here ?

Some people just didn't like the man personally and could never see past that.

Had he failed at West Ham then maybe they'd have had a point. However, given that, since leaving us, he's achieved a promotion and currently sits 7th in the Premier League having spent very modestly, I'm surprised they're still pushing the idea.

[Amo]

Shamefully predictable eh? Erm pot, I mean topman, your appearance on these threads to do some Allardyce bashing is as predictable as it gets.

"Bashing?"

I said that I didn't enjoy his football and, had I taken over the club, I wouldn't have wanted him as manager. It's called an opinion. If you define that as a "bashing" than you're a precious soul indeed.

[braddock]

"Bashing?"

I said that I didn't enjoy his football and, had I taken over the club, I wouldn't have wanted him as manager. It's called an opinion. If you define that as a "bashing" than you're a precious soul indeed.

This is also where I stand.

[greco]

Braddock

that thread (containing many themes, not just race) is perfect for posters to make generalised statements and look stupid in the process

like you do with rovers fans.?

we get it, you´d sack sam, appoint a brilliant manager on a limited budget, one who´d unearth the best and the brightest talents for peanuts, they´d be playing expansive and attractive football and of course be a winning team. Cause thats how you play fm, while sitting on shebby´s lap.

Some people just didn't like the man personally and could never see past that.

Had he failed at West Ham then maybe they'd have had a point. However, given that, since leaving us, he's achieved a promotion and currently sits 7th in the Premier League having spent very modestly, I'm surprised they're still pushing the idea.

agreed. Its been said so many times, for a club our size and budget, he was the perfect fit.

[braddock]

like you do with rovers fans.?

we get it, you´d sack sam, appoint a brilliant manager on a limited budget, one who´d unearth the best and the brightest talents for peanuts, they´d be playing expansive and attractive football and of course be a winning team. Cause thats how you play fm, while sitting on shebby´s lap.

Yeah, I do at times generalise our fans, and for that I apologise. But I am posting in that thread, and I'm not tripping myself up, whilst posting freely with exactly how I feel and not hiding any discriminations. So whilst I sometimes generalise our fans, and he seems to generalise people from Rishton, we should both post in there to see what happens.

No then, you don't get it. I'd have sacked Allardyce and taken a risk by appointing a manager I believed would keep us in the division. Hopefully we would have stayed in the league, and the chances would have been that we would have done with the quality we had at the time which has since been stripped. i would have looked to attempt to reinvest the money wisely from any sales we did make (Jones would have gone at some point, Samba would have), though that in itself would be a risk. But hey, that is football, it's full of risks. And i'd much rather be in the situation where you are exploring the possibilities of the club without resorting to Sam's football. Others would disagree and do things differently, but that's how I'd do it. I make no guarantees it will make you finish as high as we got under Allardyce, but that's not absolutely everything for me.

As for Shebby Singh, I actually happen to dislike him, so I don't see why you would think I do. Yoda himself, mentioned that conspiracy theory to me in a private message earlier today. I've no idea where it's come from and if anybody wants to search back and find posts where I'm in any kind of love-in with him, do feel free. You lot are a fan of conspiracy theories, after all.

[thenodrog]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself ? None of those managers in my opinion would have come to a Venky's owned Rovers - not that we would have wanted them anyway because none of them are better than Allardyce or have his track record as a manager who can get impoverished clubs like ours to punch above their weight. If you can't see that you know nothing about football.

Or business.

I'm not talking about surpassing Allardyce, or necessarily matching him. I'm talking about stopping in the league and watching a decent game of football.

Anybody with any gumption is talking about £750,000 for every leage position in the Prem. You live in a dream world braddock.

[jim mk2]

I'd have sacked Allardyce and taken a risk by appointing a manager

You cannot take risks with a club like ours - look what's happened in the past 2 years.

[braddock]

Or business.

Anybody with any gumption is talking about £750,000 for every leage position in the Prem. You live in a dream world braddock.

I'd finish 3 places down every season under a manager who played slightly interesting football (providing that was in a safe position) than watch Allardyce's football for the rest of my life.

You cannot take risks with a club like ours - look what's happened in the past 2 years.

By failing to appoint a real manager.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

No, by sacking one of the only ones in the business who can keep a team in the premier league long-term working on a negative transfer budget. Maybe the only one such is the complete lack of evidence for any other.

[jim mk2]

I'd finish 3 places down every season under a manager who played slightly interesting football (providing that was in a safe position) than watch Allardyce's football for the rest of my life.

By failing to appoint a real manager.

West Ham fans are loving Sam's football - I've asked them.

We had a "real" manager. Pity you are too blind to see it.

[braddock]

Some Rovers fans were loving Allardyce's football at Rovers. Some weren't.

It wasn't Allardyce or down and so I'd have taken a slight risk in appointing someone else. Allardyce served his purpose and had made us a safe enough club. A 'manager' like Kean wasn't a million miles off keeping us up with a decimated team.

Anyway, I've made my point, you've all made yours. We disagree.

[Henwah]

I'd finish 3 places down every season under a manager who played slightly interesting football (providing that was in a safe position) than watch Allardyce's football for the rest of my life.

By failing to appoint a real manager.

Agreed, getting rid of Allardyce wasn't entirely stupid, the choice of replacement was

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'd finish 3 places down every season under a manager who played slightly interesting football

Stan Collymore said pretty much exactly the same thing on Talksport on the day of Sam's sacking. And to be honest I struggled to comprehend how such an experienced player could think playing with fire can be that simple and controlled. But then I remembered he's a complete knob who thought relegation and promotion to the premiership should be abolished. So you're in good company.

[SydneyRover]

Some Rovers fans were loving Allardyce's football at Rovers. Some weren't.

It wasn't Allardyce or down and so I'd have taken a slight risk in appointing someone else. Allardyce served his purpose and had made us a safe enough club. A 'manager' like Kean wasn't a million miles off keeping us up with a decimated team.

Anyway, I've made my point, you've all made yours. We disagree.

I noticed you didn't answer my post on the last page. Topman made an attempt but it was clearly a load of rubbish as he admitted Sam was a good manager for the type of budget we were on under the Trust, but then said when Venky's came in sacking him at some point would have been the right thing. However Venky's didn't exactly have a massive budget themselves and it wasn't all that different to the Trusts budget. In fact had we been going down under the Trust I would guess they would have freed up more money for transfers than Venky's did last season.

How many managers have consistently led their teams to mid table or better finishes on the sort of budget Sam had (either under the Trust or what Venky's would have given) since the year 2000 in the Premier League?

I had Sam, Curbishley, Hughes and Pulis. Of those only Hughes has ever played anything remotely attractive, and even then his last year or so at Rovers the style of play was being criticised and if things go the way they are at QPR he'll be out of this club. Pulis has had significantly more to spend too.

MON was only at Celtic and big spending Villa in this time. Moyes has done brilliantly on the budget he's had, but it's been in a different league to the budget at Rovers.

So, since the financial disparities in the league became so marked, if the number of managers who've consistently managed to achieve what you've been asking for is so low, surely you have completely unrealistic expectations?