[Archived] sam glad to be out of brfc

[Amo]

Just as I thought...you couldn't answer the actual footballing questions.

By your own reasoning, we shouldn't have plucked either Souness or Hughes as manager then, since neither were established at this level when they came here. Every managerial appointment is a gamble. That's the name of the game. In Venky's case, the ends never justified the means because they hired the goon from Cumbernauld instead of a real manager.

[DE.]

By your own reasoning, we shouldn't have plucked either Souness or Hughes as manager then, since neither were established at this level when they came here. Every managerial appointment is a gamble. That's the name of the game. In Venky's case, the ends never justified the means because they hired the goon from Cumbernauld instead of a real manager.

The difference being, of course, that when Souness and Hughes were hired we needed a new manager because the club was in trouble. When Sam was sacked we were doing absolutely fine.

[Amo]

The difference being, of course, that when Souness and Hughes were hired we needed a new manager because the club was in trouble. When Sam was sacked we were doing absolutely fine.

Surely an even worse time to gamble on two wild card managers, then?

[braddock]

As expected, Braddock or Topman still haven't properly responded to my post a few pages back about their unrealistic expectations.

You do realise just three words "I was wrong" will make you look a lot better than you do now?

Anyway I'll rephrase them and I fully invite ANYONE (including Braddock and Topman) who would have sacked Sam whether at that point or at the end of the season to answer them.

Feel free to pick holes in the questions themselves, but if you can't, then you ought to be answer all of the questions and defend your position.

1. Since around the year 2000, aside from the managers I listed in my previous post (Curbishley, Hughes, Pulis and Allardyce), can you recall any other managers who have consistently managed to get their teams into mid table or better (often much better in Sam's case with Bolton) on the sort of budget we had under the Trust or under Venky's? Actually even including Pulis is generous as Stoke's net budget was considerably higher than ours but we'll go with it.

Moyes had a considerably bigger budget at Everton before you name him, although this isn't to say he's a worse manager than Sam, clearly Moyes is one of the best managers in the Sky era.

2. How many of those have a reputation with fans and media for playing attractive football, and how many have a reputation for playing more direct "negative" football? If you have named any other names for the first question, what about them?

3. If you can't name more than three managers who have a reputation for consistently getting mid table or higher positions on a budget with their clubs whilst playing significantly more attractive football, would you then agree this is something that has hardly been achieved in the recent history of the Premier League?

4. Why then did you advocate getting rid of Allardyce, who we've established already was achieving rare things in this league - consistently getting his clubs into mid table and often much higher, year on year, despite not having much to spend - in favour of getting someone who would achieve similar results but with playing more attractive football, especially when this was something that had hardly been achieved in the recent history of the league?

5. Name me as many clubs as you can think of who have attempted to play attractive, expansive football in the PL whilst on a tight budget. What happened to each one of them?

If you guys still say you would have fired Sam and got a better replacement, you ought to be able to answer all of these.

OK, well i don't know why you don't understand my point of 'it wasn't a case of Allardyce or relegation, so I'd have appointed another manager'.

Why would I say I'm wrong when I'm simply saying what I would have done. The only way I'd be wrong would be if I wasn't saying what I would have done.

It doesn't have to be attractive football. More attractive football would be the aim, and it really isn't hard.

Your points are irrelevant to my opinion, as highlighted above. You're presuming I would have replaced him with someone who could match the league position and played attractive football with your points. That isn't necessarily the way i'd go about things. For reasons you have posted, that would be very difficult to do given our budget etc.

[chris_h]

This is where I usually come for my updates on West Ham's fortunes. They must be hiding.

[47er]

OK, well i don't know why you don't understand my point of 'it wasn't a case of Allardyce or relegation, so I'd have appointed another manager'.

Why would I say I'm wrong when I'm simply saying what I would have done. The only way I'd be wrong would be if I wasn't saying what I would have done.

It doesn't have to be attractive football. More attractive football would be the aim, and it really isn't hard.

Your points are irrelevant to my opinion, as highlighted above. You're presuming I would have replaced him with someone who could match the league position and played attractive football with your points. That isn't necessarily the way i'd go about things. For reasons you have posted, that would be very difficult to do given our budget etc.

You mean you would have replaced him with someone who couldn't match the league position and wouldn't have played attractive football?

We tried that...........

[braddock]

You mean you would have replaced him with someone who couldn't match the league position and wouldn't have played attractive football?

We tried that...........

I'd have taken a few places lower with decent football.

[Exiled in Toronto]

This is where I usually come for my updates on West Ham's fortunes. They must be hiding.

The fixture list has been kind to them so far; 6 of their 9 games have been against teams in the bottom 7. I don;t think West Ham are going to be in the top half for much longer, next 4 games are all toughies

[chris_h]

The fixture list has been kind to them so far; 6 of their 9 games have been against teams in the bottom 7. I don;t think West Ham are going to be in the top half for much longer, next 4 games are all toughies

Ah, right. Limited prospect of updates from Gordon and Jim then?

[thenodrog]

I'd have taken a few places lower with decent football.

That is just utter utter stupidity! It doesn't work like that. You are obviously a dreamer.

Apart from the fact that each place is worth £750,000 and just 2/3 places would cancel out total ST and match day income from the combined Blackburn End and Riverside the bottom half of the Prem simply doesn't allow for such hare brained schemes. A few places lower would put us and more importantly the players permanantly under threat of relegation with all the nerves, angst and bitten fingernails that entails. One slip caused by a few injuries or a loss of form or a dedgy refereeing decision or two etc for a team in the bottom 6 is enough to see them down. As the old saying goes if you keep buying tickets one day you will win the raffle!

The fixture list has been kind to them so far; 6 of their 9 games have been against teams in the bottom 7. I don;t think West Ham are going to be in the top half for much longer, next 4 games are all toughies

More pertinantly how long will the best manager we have had in the last 20 year last in his job before an out of work Arry puts the skids under him? Hughes cannot afford to lose the upcoming games against Reading, Stoke and Soton or he will surely be toast.

They do say one should never go back anywhere but I wonder if Shebby is monitoring the situation? If he wants the crowds back then he certainly should.

[arbitro]

I'd have taken a few places lower with decent football.

Professional football clubs success (on and off the field) is measured by results. The knock on effect of winning matches is bigger crowds, more sponsors who want to be associated with success, greater merchandise sales and more corporate tickets sales.

As a slight aside I see a lot of the Sam Allardyce style in what we are currently seeing under Eric Black. Very few risks taken, keeping things tight when the opposition are in possession and conceding very few goals. The by product of this style is that we are scoring very few.

[47er]

I'd have taken a few places lower with decent football.

For all the reasons others have put forward, that one sentence exposes you as an absolute fool.

[braddock]

That is just utter utter stupidity! It doesn't work like that. You are obviously a dreamer.

Apart from the fact that each place is worth £750,000 and just 2/3 places would cancel out total ST and match day income from the combined Blackburn End and Riverside the bottom half of the Prem simply doesn't allow for such hare brained schemes. A few places lower would put us and more importantly the players permanantly under threat of relegation with all the nerves, angst and bitten fingernails that entails. One slip caused by a few injuries or a loss of form or a dedgy refereeing decision or two etc for a team in the bottom 6 is enough to see them down. As the old saying goes if you keep buying tickets one day you will win the raffle!

More pertinantly how long will the best manager we have had in the last 20 year last in his job before an out of work Arry puts the skids under him? Hughes cannot afford to lose the upcoming games against Reading, Stoke and Soton or he will surely be toast.

They do say one should never go back anywhere but I wonder if Shebby is monitoring the situation? If he wants the crowds back then he certainly should.

I'm aware my opinion is not shared by everybody, and obviously I'm speaking hypothetically, but I don't care about £1.5million if it's going to be spent acquiring a squad who play in Allardyce's style. I know it's not a case of if we get somebody else then it's just a few places down and that's it. But I also know it's not Allardyce or relegation, so i'd have been more than happy moving him along when he'd stabilised us.

Professional football clubs success (on and off the field) is measured by results. The knock on effect of winning matches is bigger crowds, more sponsors who want to be associated with success, greater merchandise sales and more corporate tickets sales.

As a slight aside I see a lot of the Sam Allardyce style in what we are currently seeing under Eric Black. Very few risks taken, keeping things tight when the opposition are in possession and conceding very few goals. The by product of this style is that we are scoring very few.

It all means nothing if it's all going towards maintaining that philosophy. Yes, there are a few factors that we are using now, but it isn't big boot the vast majority of times. And to be honest, Allardyce would be good to have at the club now. Stabilise us, take the medicine of bad football until hopefully we can be turned into a Premier League club again, achieve consistent consolidation, and then stop taking the medicine and employ a proper manager (that's in reference to Kean, Allardyce is obviously a proper manager).

For all the reasons others have put forward, that one sentence exposes you as an absolute fool.

League positions mean very little if you don't want to watch any more.

[braddock]

Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's little more I can say other than constant repetition on the matter. I'm aware it's not a popular opinion and I perfectly understand people disagreeing. I don't view it as some kind of universal opinion which everybody should hold but it is my opinion and therefore hypothetically speaking, that is what I'd have done had I been in charge.

[arbitro]

I'm aware my opinion is not shared by everybody, and obviously I'm speaking hypothetically, but I don't care about £1.5million if it's going to be spent acquiring a squad who play in Allardyce's style. I know it's not a case of if we get somebody else then it's just a few places down and that's it. But I also know it's not Allardyce or relegation, so i'd have been more than happy moving him along when he'd stabilised us.

It all means nothing if it's all going towards maintaining that philosophy. Yes, there are a few factors that we are using now, but it isn't big boot the vast majority of times. And to be honest, Allardyce would be good to have at the club now. Stabilise us, take the medicine of bad football until hopefully we can be turned into a Premier League club again, achieve consistent consolidation, and then stop taking the medicine and employ a proper manager (that's in reference to Kean, Allardyce is obviously a proper manager).

League positions mean very little if you don't want to watch any more.

I'm leaving this debate now because I really haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

[thenodrog]

League positions mean very little if you don't want to watch any more.

Attendances were on the up under Allardyce's tenure weren't they?

[thenodrog]

And to be honest, Allardyce would be good to have at the club now. Stabilise us, take the medicine of bad football until hopefully we can be turned into a Premier League club again, achieve consistent consolidation, and then stop taking the medicine and employ a proper manager (that's in reference to Kean, Allardyce is obviously a proper manager).

Barmy! You get a manager to do all that (and in Allardyces case a man who would keep you in the Premier League) and then you sack him and take a massive gamble on somebody who promises to play more entertaining football. It seems the lessons learnt under two of the last three managers have gone right over your head.

Absolutely nuts, women and football do not mix easily do they.

[SydneyRover]

By your own reasoning, we shouldn't have plucked either Souness or Hughes as manager then, since neither were established at this level when they came here. Every managerial appointment is a gamble. That's the name of the game. In Venky's case, the ends never justified the means because they hired the goon from Cumbernauld instead of a real manager.

No, that's my reasoning at all. Why are you even including Souness?

Souness was hired when we were in the old Division One so didn't come into my post whatsoever. The list of men who have taken a squad which is clearly among the best in the league on paper to promotion (as Souness did) is a very long one.

Souey had a great first season in the Premier with us too and had the benefit of having Duff in the form of his life plus considerably more money to spend at that time. However the following season he would have got us relegated had Newcastle not come in for him. If we'd appointed Souness from the position we were in when we appointed Allardyce we would have been perennial relegation contenders at best. A look at the rest of his career will tell you the same.

Hughes was one of the group of four managers who have consistently managed mid table or better finishes on a budget in the recent history of this league. At the time I was pleased with the appointment because he'd done so well for five years managing the Wales team.

But you missed my whole point entirely - to sack Sam and appoint someone else would be madness.

As my post illustrated, in Sam we already had someone who had achieved things with clubs like ours that only a small group of PL managers had done.

Sacking him and trying to bring someone else in to do the same but with significantly more attractive football on the budget we had would be asking someone to do something that no one had ever really consistently managed in the recent history of the PL.

That's not to say it might not have worked for a season - a few clubs/managers have managed it for a season but then got found out afterwards (eg Owen Coyle).

Unless you can name quite a few managers since around 2000 or so who have consistently got their clubs to the sort of positions Sam has whilst playing significantly more attractive football, I don't see how you can't agree with that?

Surely an even worse time to gamble on two wild card managers, then?

We've excluded Souness from the equation, you can't have understood my point about consistently achieving Premier League mid table/higher position on a budget in the first place to have included him in your post in the first place.

And no, Hughes wasn't a wild card. He had five years in charge of the Welsh national team and taken them to some of their best results in decades vs the likes of Italy, Germany, Argentina and the Czech Republic whilst taking them a huge way up the rankings.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'd have taken a few places lower with decent football.

A few places, so about 15th? We played decent football under Souness, but the reaction to his last season where we finished 15th was so negative that for most it completely cancelled out his 3 previous excellent seasons, and poisoned fans against him to the point of dishing out horrendous abuse on his return with Newcastle. So I think its fair to say fans weren't at all happy with that season and wouldn't have taken it given a choice.

A few places below Allardyce is bottom half, and beginning to flirt with relegation. I'm not sure how the football would actually be decent under those circumstances.

[Amo]

*snip*

I plenty understand the crux of your argument.

Here's some names I would've looked at: Martin Jol, Michael Laudrup, Dick Advocaat, and Ronald Koeman (ETA: Martin O'Neill was out of work at the time too, wasn't he?). All of which I am fairly confident would have been able to keep us in this league without resorting to spoiler tactics. Again, it's a risk, but as I was trying to illustrate, both Hughes & Souness were gambles that paid off, and neither of them were established at the time. Souness had never taken a team into the Premier League before and Hughes was a total wild card at club management. So my point remains. Would it have been safer to renew Allardyce's contract? Most probably. But I wouldn't want any team I own playing that way week in, week out.

[Pedro]

Pedro why don't you do a little research before you post ? It'll make your opinions more valid.

Check out the spending power of Limerick, PNE, Blackpool, Notts Co, BWFC (before Eddie Davies) and BRFC. Allardyce did a good job for them all with budgets of next to sod all.

Not only that but re: any money spent by Bolton (or anybody else) the cheques would not be signed by Allardyce but by the Chairman / Sec. Furthermore if money was available at any club I can only think of one manager (Arsene Wenger) who would not spend it readily.

Ok, I'll totally overlook all the high profile players on high wages he asked to be signed if that makes you happy. I'll also overlook the fact that apart from Rovers and Bolton those teams that you listed aren't in the top flight and then it may give your arguement a base

I'm surprised at yours and Den's response to be fair, I thought it was a fair comment to point out that he has proven to help rack up the debt and has yet to prove capable of consistently keeping a team within their means.

[DeadlyDirk]

Allardyce was sacked nearly 2 years ago and people are still discussing whether it was the right decision and who we should have got instead?

Unless someone has a time machine surely it's time to move on from this!

Yes in hindsight sacking Sam was a bad decison, it was a worse decision to replace him with Kean, but it happened and nothing can be done about it.

Why not discuss why you didn't pick different lottery numbers so you could have bought the club yourself, it's just as relevant.

[thenodrog]

Allardyce was sacked nearly 2 years ago and people are still discussing whether it was the right decision and who we should have got instead?

That was the exact moment that the self destruct button for the club was pushed. Everything since then has been downhill and imo we are still in decline.

[jim mk2]

At a time when the club is crying out for strong direction from the top it's ironic that the only time Venky's have shown leadership and been decisive is when they decided to sack Sam Allardyce. Makes you want to weep really.

[Pedro]

At a time when the club is crying out for strong direction from the top it's ironic that the only time Venky's have shown leadership and been decisive is when they decided to sack Sam Allardyce. Makes you want to weep really.

Very true.