[Archived] Black Players Association

[True Blue & White]

I doubt he ever saw one till Jesse Owens trapped up in 36.

An interesting fact about Owens is he regards Hitker as less racist than his own president. There is a myth that Hitler refused to shake his hand because he was black, it wasn't it was becasuse he wasn't German, he refused to shake any of the hands of non-German competitors. However Owens' own president refused to congratulate or acknowledge him when he returned to the US.

Also, it was the nazis that invented the modern phenomenon of carrying the flame around the country which we still do to this day, so not everything they did was bad

There's my facts of the day....

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Hitler apparently waved at him or held up his hand to acknowledge Owens whereas successive US Presidents didn't recognise Owens' achievements until 20 years later.

[Mike E]

An interesting fact about Owens is he regards Hitker as less racist than his own president. There is a myth that Hitler refused to shake his hand because he was black, it wasn't it was becasuse he wasn't German, he refused to shake any of the hands of non-German competitors. However Owens' own president refused to congratulate or acknowledge him when he returned to the US.

Also, it was the nazis that invented the modern phenomenon of carrying the flame around the country which we still do to this day, so not everything they did was bad

There's my facts of the day....

Further to that: The 'Nazi salute' originated in the modern Olympic movement. The myth was that Romans made this salute, but there is no evidence in literature. However the myth led to the Olympic movement 'adopting' (inventing) the salute and American school kids even used it while reciting the american pledge of allegiance (I apologise to our US residents if it has a diff name).

But you yanks made the Nazi salute LONG before the Nazi's adopted it in 1930 something.

[Tom]

Shebby might give us some pearls of wisdom on this tonight as they are discussing it on sky sports

[Rovermatt]

It's my first time looking at this thread and while I can't be arsed getting bogged down in the inevitable debates about race, I find the idea of a black players association to be ridiculous in the extreme. It will simply exacerbate the divisions and differences that the concept seeks to combat.

I was listening to Clarke Carlisle on 5 Live this evening and, in spite of his Burnley connections, I found myself to be in full agreement with him that the idea is ludicrous.

[braddock]

I still maintain that there is little or no racism in UK football XLM. If a player is the right price he will be signed by a club whether he is black, white or sky blue pink.

I wouldn't say racism in English football is rife, but I think the main gist of the group that is supposedly being created is targeted more at the reaction to the incidents of racism.

As for the second sentence, signing a black player doesn't mean you aren't racist. Ron Atkinson...

Aside from that, you can hire a man who you don't like because you want something out of him. Managers are regularly forced to sign players they might not like as a person. Look at Warnock.

[dubdubdub]

This thread exists and is thriving because some people are opposed to an association which has formed because the founders of that association feel that attention through self-imposed segregationism is the only way to improve their playing conditions and life.

The debate prior to this post shows that action is justified.

All some people on here have achieved is to unknowingly sanction the very thing they were arguing against.

[True Blue & White]

As for the second sentence, signing a black player doesn't mean you aren't racist. Ron Atkinson...

So what makes you racist is stupidly using a racial slur once then?

I'd say the fact Big Ron was the first manager to include black players in his teams and fight for their right to play without being abused outweighed that off air comment he made, as vulgar and idiotic as it was.

[dubdubdub]

So what makes you racist is stupidly using a racial slur once then?

I'd say the fact Big Ron was the first manager to include black players in his teams and fight for their right to play without being abused outweighed that off air comment he made, as vulgar and idiotic as it was.

If you're a commentator in a situation whereby any misplaced racial slur could cost you everything then I think you must be racist and stupid to utter it.

[True Blue & White]

If you're a commentator in a situation whereby any misplaced racial slur could cost you everything then I think you must be racist and stupid to utter it.

Why must you be racist? To me, a racist is someone who has an almost political grievance against another ethnic group, you must genuinely believe that being your colour makes you biologically superior to other people. Using a racist term in anger doesn't make you a 'racist' it makes you someone who stupidly used a 'racist term' which isn't quite the same.

Take John Terry for example, what he allegedly said was racist but that doesn't make him 'a racist', just someone who said something racist. Frankie Boyle won a libel case on this very matter this week. Or take someone like Louis CK who uses the N word all the time and yet is best mates with Chris Rock (I know that sounds a little like the I kind be racist because my firends are black argument but if you see them play off with each other it's clear Louis isn't a 'racist' and if he were Rock would want nothing to do with him).

You can accuse people of racist actions and that is certainly what Ron did that fateful night, but to brand them 'a racist' is elevated the accusation to a much higher level.

[braddock]

So what makes you racist is stupidly using a racial slur once then?

I'd say the fact Big Ron was the first manager to include black players in his teams and fight for their right to play without being abused outweighed that off air comment he made, as vulgar and idiotic as it was.

I can half understand (though disagree with) the argument that in the heat of the moment Terry called Ferdinand something racist in order to make him feel bad in defence to what Ferdinand had been saying to him, but a man sitting in a studio coming out with such a racial slur, not to the mans face, without any justification (not that there is any) regarding to heat of the moment is indefensible.

The fact he signed the players and played them to create a good team which would then help him wouldn't necessarily mean he wasn't racist.

The comments show that he is racist, to some extent.

The signings don't show either way as personal gain was involved. He could have thought that these few lads were decent as he'd actually met them, and not like the rest of their race who he may have viewed as lazy individuals.

[braddock]

Why must you be racist? To me, a racist is someone who has an almost political grievance against another ethnic group, you must genuinely believe that being your colour makes you biologically superior to other people. Using a racist term in anger doesn't make you a 'racist' it makes you someone who stupidly used a 'racist term' which isn't quite the same.

Take John Terry for example, what he allegedly said was racist but that doesn't make him 'a racist', just someone who said something racist. Frankie Boyle won a libel case on this very matter this week. Or take someone like Louis CK who uses the N word all the time and yet is best mates with Chris Rock (I know that sounds a little like the I kind be racist because my firends are black argument but if you see them play off with each other it's clear Louis isn't a 'racist' and if he were Rock would want nothing to do with him).

You can accuse people of racist actions and that is certainly what Ron did that fateful night, but to brand them 'a racist' is elevated the accusation to a much higher level.

Atkinson was not using the term in anger. He was using it matter of factly. It wasn't the heat of the moment.

Context is indeed everything. So in what context was Atkinson not being racist? Louis CK provides the context to explain why he is not racist. Provide the context for Atkinson not being racist and you might have something, but you don't.

As for Terry, it's bizarre. Everybody dislikes him, slates all his previous actions, his family members, every area of his life, yet when he does something that is racist all of a sudden people who hate him are quick to say 'he's not racist!' when there is no way to prove he isn't and there is proof that he has done something that a racist would do.

Frankie Boyle won the lawsuit because he provided the context.

[True Blue & White]

Atkinson was not using the term in anger. He was using it matter of factly. It wasn't the heat of the moment.

Context is indeed everything. So in what context was Atkinson not being racist? Louis CK provides the context to explain why he is not racist. Provide the context for Atkinson not being racist and you might have something, but you don't.

As for Terry, it's bizarre. Everybody dislikes him, slates all his previous actions, his family members, every area of his life, yet when he does something that is racist all of a sudden people who hate him are quick to say 'he's not racist!' when there is no way to prove he isn't and there is proof that he has done something that a racist would do.

Frankie Boyle won the lawsuit because he provided the context.

Have you heard the Atkinson rant? He was supporting Chelsea that night and was very angry and the comment certainly was in the heat of the moment, you make it sound like he was calm and collected when he said it. It's on Youtube if you want to actually hear it. Also, following the incident Carlton Palmer said this...

"I'm black and I'm sitting here and I'm gonna stand up for Big Ron not because he's a friend of mine, I'm standing up for him because I know what he's like as a bloke. If we're going to deal with racism then let's deal with the bigger picture of racism not about a throwaway comment that wasn't meant in that manner."

And that is kind of the point I'm making here. I want to make it clear that I am not defending Ron's actions that night he certainly deserved the sacking and ousting to the wilderness he received over it but as Carlton said taking incidents like this and blowing them up as examples of the ills of society is just disingenuous.

On to Terry, as far as I understand it he has never been convicted nor punished of racism. He won his court case that was basically deciding whether he was a racist or not, he lost the FA probe simply for using the word 'black' in any context. His defence was that he was merely repeating back to Ferdinand an acquisition he thought he'd heard and that hasn't been proven to be false. A black friend of mine even thinks that even if he did use it in anger he wouldn't be offended as he would use "white b*******" if he was in an argument. My point, what is and what isn't racist is subjective.

What I'm arguing here is whether someone is 'a racist', which I believe to be a very strong accusation to make against someone. You can accuse people of doing racist things but that is different to actually put the label of 'racist' on them as a person. Put it this way, you can tell a joke that involves under-age sex in it's content but that wouldn't make the teller of that joke 'a paedophile'.

[braddock]

So are you saying that racism can't be something verbal?

Of course you wouldn't call somebody who made a joke about underage sex a paedophile as paedophilia is something very different. Racism can involve language though.

I have no qualms about context. I've explained that in the previous post, but you seem to be consistently bringing up examples about jokes whereas we are discussing two examples of people not joking.

I just listened to the outburst, on youtube as suggested and he is not sat back casually, but there is no need at all for him to be racist in that situation. He isn't struggling to describe him. It doesn't just fall out because he doesn't know what to say. He calls him it point blank. Carlton Palmer may have his own opinion on the matter but for me there is no excuse for that behaviour, he was rightfully sacked, and I have no evidence to say he isn't racist.

[ABBEY]

But it's ok for you haddock to publically state on here I'm violent ?

[braddock]

But it's ok for you haddock to publically state on here I'm violent ?

I've said you might be violent. You might be racist too. I might be racist as far as you know.

I've not said you are because I don't know, but i have no intention of meeting up face to face to discuss things when we have a perfectly fine platform here to do so, meaning I'll never find out and you'll never find out. What do you not understand about this Abbey?

Why do you want to meet me?

[LeChuck]

But it's ok for you haddock to publically state on here I'm violent ?

To be fair Abbey, I saw that post. He was quoting one of yours where, in the middle of an argument, you'd offered to meet him "face to face". It did come across as pretty aggressive, though I'm guessing from your reaction you didn't intend it to sound like that. I can see why there was a misunderstanding though.

[braddock]

And I didn't say he was violent. I said I saw no reason in him offering to do so unless he intended to use violence. I've still be waiting for him to come to me with a reason he wanted to do so which isn't that, given that we can get all we have to do done on this platform.

[True Blue & White]

So are you saying that racism can't be something verbal?

No that's not what I'm saying at all.

I am saying that someone can say something that is racist without them being 'a racist'.

Let me give you an example, if Joe Bloggs called an Asian kid a P*** at school in the heat of the moment, but then never said or did anything racist ever again would you still label that person "a racist" 30 years later just because at one point in their life they said something that was?

Nick Griffin I believe to be 'a racist', John Terry I believe to be a stupid person who once said a racist thing but don't think he is 'a racist'. Can you not see the difference?

Of course you wouldn't call somebody who made a joke about underage sex a paedophile as paedophilia is something very different. Racism can involve language though.

You've missed the point there though. I was trying to say that someone who makes a racist joke for example isn't necessarily 'a racist' in the same way someone who made a joke about shagging an underage girl wouldn't be a paedophile, I wasn't comparing the two issues.

I have no qualms about context. I've explained that in the previous post, but you seem to be consistently bringing up examples about jokes whereas we are discussing two examples of people not joking.

Fair enough but I got the feeling from your previous posts that as soon as you mention a racist word under any context that makes you 'a racist'.

I just listened to the outburst, on youtube as suggested and he is not sat back casually, but there is no need at all for him to be racist in that situation. He isn't struggling to describe him. It doesn't just fall out because he doesn't know what to say. He calls him it point blank. Carlton Palmer may have his own opinion on the matter but for me there is no excuse for that behaviour, he was rightfully sacked, and I have no evidence to say he isn't racist.

I agree, there was no need and he was stupid and deserved everything he got. Once again I am not defending Ron Atkinson's actions on that night at all. I am disagreeing with your previous statement that he is "a racist" because of that one incident whereas I don't think it's as simple as that and you have to take everything he's ever done in his career before you can put a label on him personally like that.

Was what Ron Atkinson did that night a racist action, definitely. Is Ron Atkinson 'a racist', I'm not so sure and until he joins the EDL and get a Nazi swastika tattooed on his head I think it's harsh to put such a defaming label on him for the rest of his life.

[DeadlyDirk]

I'd wager to say that the majority of people in the world have uttered a racist comment, made a racist joke or something similiar. That doesn't then mean they are all racists, a lot of us make silly comments out of stupidity or ignorance.

John Terry is guilty of doing just that, making a racist comment, that doesn't then mean he is definitely a racist, nor of course does it prove he isn't, you'd have to know him to figure that out.

Some people make racist comments not because they believe it but because it's a trigger point which can be used to rile people up and get them to react. That would obviously make them 100% guilty of making racist comments and they should have to face the consequences but it doesn't nessicarily mean they are racist.

There's a big difference in the words that come out of your mouth and what you truly believe and I feel there is a big difference between someone who makes a few racist comments and someone who is genuinely racist and feels that other races are inferior. John Terry might well have just wanted to rile up Anton Ferdinand for whatever reason and the easiest way to do that was through racial insults, doesn't nessicarily make him a true racist, just a vile individual.

I'm not trying to defend Terry in any way, I still feel his punishment was far too lenient but I don't think that being a genuine racist and making comments nessicarily go hand in hand together. You can make racist comments without being racist and you can also be racist without ever making a racist comment.

[thenodrog]

The comments show that he is racist, to some extent.

Personally I'd suggest that 99.99% (or more) of people walking the planet today are racist to some extent.

[thenodrog]

This thread exists and is thriving because some people are opposed to an association which has formed because the founders of that association feel that attention through self-imposed segregationism is the only way to improve their playing conditions and life.

The debate prior to this post shows that action is justified.

In your opinion.

btw has an association been formed or have you jumped to conclusions?

So what makes you racist is stupidly using a racial slur once then?

I'd say the fact Big Ron was the first manager to include black players in his teams and fight for their right to play without being abused outweighed that off air comment he made, as vulgar and idiotic as it was.

Indeed. It was Big Ron who put the 3 degrees (Cunningham, Bateson and Regis) together on the pitch when black footballers were as rare as hens teeth. Still why oppose the popular misconception that sprung from various agenda'd sources?

If you're a commentator in a situation whereby any misplaced racial slur could cost you everything then I think you must be racist and stupid to utter it.

Atkinson was supposedly off air and spoke not directly but in the third party.

[Amo]

Does there exist an Asian Players Association, too? Should there?

I don't see how a handful of ignorant individuals qualifies this sort of positive discrimination. This doesn't help to promote equality or integration. If anything, it only plays into the hands of groups like the BNP, who use these white-guilt motivated schemes to plant fear and hate among the masses.

[thenodrog]

Does there exist an Asian Players Association, too? Should there?

Definitely! They could hold their AGM in a telephone box.

[broadsword]

Interesting article here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-20089021

I tend to agree. If you don't like the way the campaign's being managed, try to exert some influence on it in some way, get involved and try to steer it in the way you think it should go.

This Black Player's Association, I'm getting visions of the Black Panthers and gloved salutes. All very militant and dare I say, dummy-spitting. But how does it help? What is their strategy to rid the game of racism? I'm not sure they have one.

The problem is that people tend to think they can shout what they like at a football match and get lost in the crowd. Being in the crowd with their mates gives them strength and encourages them to be open with thoughts that they keep suppressed otherwise. To an extent that has been suppressed, but people will just think it instead of say it. Changing people's attitudes and thinking is the real challenge ... and how the Black Player's Association will go about changing this I have no idea. I suspect they'll just bitch to the media. They've already been acting like bitches by not wearing the campaign t-shirt. How juvenile.