[Archived] Rovers Trust

[RoversTrust]

Saturday November 24th sees the official launch of the RoversTrust, from 10am to midday at Blackburn Cathedral - a few hours prior to our home game with Millwall.

This is the perfect time to get a better understanding of what the RoversTrust is about, and what our goals and objectives are for moving forward. Rovers legends Simon Garner and Glenn Keeley will be in attendance, as well as other well-known people in the community. There will also be a competition to win a fantastic prize!

The Trust is already taking on members, priced at £10 a year for adults, and £5 a year for children. More information can be found at

http://www.RoversTrust.co.uk.

You can also stay abreast of our latest developments across many popular social media outlets.

http://Facebook.com/RoversTrust - http://Twitter.com/RoversTrust - http://Gplus.to/RoversTrust

Facebook Event: https://www.facebook...01805716556433/

Google+ Event: https://plus.google....hv4jiia7kcae5j8

We hope to see many of you there!

[Ozz]

[Andy]

So are these the ones that want to buy the club, or the ones who are advising Singh on who is/isn't acceptable as our manager?

Or are they now one and the same?

Genuine question by the way (and I can't make it to the meeting jobby)...

[Paul]

Andy, yes Rovers Trust is the lot who want to buy the club!! But it's about much, much more than that. Rovers Trust is working to put the club into community ownership and to put Rovers where they have always belonged, and must again be, at the centre of the town. This is about the town, the club, the community not just ownership.

Trusts exist in all levels of football from Runcorn Linnets in the north-west counties league to Swansea in the PL. At the heart of each trust is a simple message, by the fans, for the fans because without supporters the clubs and the game would not exist.

This really is the chance to have your voice heard. If you can't get to the cathedral meeting visit the website www.roverstrust.co.uk and sign up. For £10 a year each trust member will have an equal vote in how our club should be run if it is held in community ownership.

[ABBEY]

But awkward questions that Paul doesn't like will get deleted.

[Blackburn Ender]

Abbey, I did say you could ask me any questions relating to Rovers Trust you like and I will answer them if at all possible.

Sometimes, because other people are involved, this forum is not the place to post unsubstatiated rumours. I think Glenn is in agreement in this case (he'll tell us if not).

If anyone genuinely wants to know the answer to a question or check whether a rumour they have heard is true or not, they could ask privately before posting in public.

You got a proper answer to your question and I trust you are satisfied with it.

If not let me know.

Thanks.

Neil

[RevidgeBlue]

I'm sure the people behind this are acting with the best of intentions, but as when Wayne Wild was talking about launching a a fans takeover of the Club, I am vehemently opposed to the concept of a fans trust at the upper levels of the professional game.

This might work at non League level or League 2 level at best but football at Premiership level especially football is a billionaires game, not even a millionaire's game these days.

If Venky's had relinquished control over the summer and a fan's trust taken over I'm guessing there would have been no Best, no Rhodes, no other expensive signings in terms of salary like Murphy and Etuhu, the departures of other high wage earners of the likes of Olsson, Robinson, Givet, Pedersen and Dunn and very little chance of a return to the Premiership indeed.

What happens when further new signings are needed? Who would find the estimated 10-15m quid needed to fully upgrade Brockhall to category 1 status? Nice idea in theory but completely unworkable and quite dangerous in practice for me. Would leave the Club totally at the mercy of its creditors if things went sour.

As a point of order is this the same organisation that Wayne Wild was on about rebranded under a different name?

[Blackburn Ender]

Vehemently opposed seems a bit strong Rev?

You can get all the answers you need at www.roverstrust.co.uk but in essence:

Rovers Trust is the supporters trust set up with the full approval of Supporters Direct, the official independent Government body set up to advise football fans on taking a stake in their club. The investment trust led by Wayne Wild and the supporters trust led by Oliver Jones and others have joined together on the advice of Supporters Direct.

The intention of the Trust, should it become the owners of Rovers, would be to spend what it earns i.e. TV income, sponsorship, etc. Whether that would be sufficient to pay for Premiership football is a point we can all debate. The increased sums paid to top flight clubs lead me, and others who've studied the numbers, to suggest it's perfectly possible.

The other big assest Rovers Trust brings to Rovers fans is what happens if the current or subsequent owners of Rovers cock it up badly in a Pompey or Rangers or, this week, Hearts kind of way.

Everything is in place legally and structurally to ensure Rovers survives. We have the team in place who could sit down with administrators tomorrow if needs be and agree a takeover of the club.

The next stage of the plan is to increase our financial assests to give us more bargaining power.

A huge amount of work from more than a dozen people on the Rovers Trust executive has gone into this. All for free.

If this kind of foresight and planning and devotion to the future wellbeing of Blackburn Rovers still leaves you cold then so be it.

But your plan seems to involve the hope that the Venkys will pump millions into the club or a billionaire will pop up to lead us back into the promised land. And it ain't even Christmas yet.....

[3rdpillar]

ill be there! ( ps not a que for a song )

[ABBEY]

Abbey, I did say you could ask me any questions relating to Rovers Trust you like and I will answer them if at all possible.

Sometimes, because other people are involved, this forum is not the place to post unsubstatiated rumours. I think Glenn is in agreement in this case (he'll tell us if not).

If anyone genuinely wants to know the answer to a question or check whether a rumour they have heard is true or not, they could ask privately before posting in public.

You got a proper answer to your question and I trust you are satisfied with it.

If not let me know.

Thanks.

Neil

Yes the question was answered but it was still cloak and dagger to a genuine question . I will honour Paul's top secretiveness but think its not as transparent as you say. I won't comment on the matter again .

[EwoodDawn]

Abs, I promise you, there is nothing cloak and dagger about Rovers Trust. I would not be involved with it if there was. Nor would all the other initial steering committee members who are all Rovers through and through. (Many are highly skilled individuals, extremely well respected in their fields and would not risk besmirching their reputations being associated with Rovers Trust if it were anything less than a professionally run organisation). Nor would prominent individuals such as local councillors, MPs, MEPs, members of the House of Lords, leaders of religious groups, etc. be backing us if they did not think that we offered a legitimate prospect for the future of our club. Nor would Supporters Direct (a government backed organisation) be offering us their assistance if they did not think that the future of football clubs belonged with organised supporters’ groups. (This is the very same Supporters Direct that is helping Pompey Supporters’ Trust with their bid to buy their club outright and have helped Swansea City Supporters’ Trust acquire a 20% stake in their club).

Abs, we are totally approachable - I hope you know that you can ask me anything about Rovers Trust through this message board, any time. Many local BRFCSers know they can find me in and around the ground on match days and you can ask me anything. I'll be out and about before tomorrow's game with leaflets informing people of our launch at the Cathedral, 10-12 Sat. 24th Nov. Please feel free to come and speak to me if you'd like any information.

We also have an enquiries line on our website ([email protected]). We aim to respond to any questions sent to this address within 24 hours.

Please come and hear what we have to say on the 24^th November. At the heart of everything we do is our mission, which is quite simply to represent supporters’ views whilst protecting the Club’s short and long term future.

Personally, I feel quite passionately that we can bring BRFC back to the community.

[Ozz]

Did anyone get our leaflet handed to them before the match on Saturday? How many of you are going to come to the launch next Saturday?

[mhead]

Just changed all my plans....flight booked for friday plus Car Hire. if anything the Trust meeting more important than the Millwall match.

Bizarre choice of venue? Ewood is our Cathedral.

[Stuart]

I agree with a lot of Rev's post. I think a trust as part of a Prem or Champs club should only really aim to get a percentage ownership and a seat on the board. This would be a really positive step.

Even if a well-schooled administrator could be brought in, e.g. JW, any aspirations for full ownership don't add up, in my view.

There may be a lot of TV income to spend but all the other clubs get that PLUS their other, bigger, income streams. Even with some fair play rules introduced - and it's not yet clear if the PL will adopt them - it wouldn't be a level playing field as they'd be cosmetic and ways around them would be found.

If we were sustainable and self-financing there would have been little reason for the Walker Trust to sell up.

We need Venkys to either learn fast about what the club means to the community and invite a trust organisation to have a seat on the board, or sell to a person or organisation with the funds and foresight to do the same.

[Paul]

Just changed all my plans....flight booked for friday plus Car Hire. if anything the Trust meeting more important than the Millwall match.

Bizarre choice of venue? Ewood is our Cathedral.

That's good to read mhead. We deliberately chose Saturday morning of a home game for this very reason - it would allow travelling fans the opportunity to attend which a weekday evening would not.

As for the choice of venue? Large central venues are limited in Blackburn. We had certain needs such PA system, plenty of seating, easy access by car, foot, public transport etc. when the offer to use the cathedral came along we felt it fitted perfectly.

Somehow I don't think we'd have got Ewood!

[Paul]

I've been wanting to respond to Stuart and Rev for a couple of days but time has been at a premium. I should preface this by saying these are personal views not an official Trust statement as I am on the steering committee. Partly I held these views for years, partly I've learnt through my involvement. At Ewood our ownership problem has been clearly demonstrated in the last two years; there is an argument the owners are changing which I believe is unproven and will take far more than the next transfer window to prove. Currently the club remains a shambles and no one knows our real position. The owners say the club is not for sale but lets examine the ownership possibilities for Rovers or any other club:

• Benefactors a la Jack Walker are fantastic. What a ride we all enjoyed. Chances of another at Ewood probably less than 0.01% if any
  
• Benefactors Trust Fund, as experienced at Ewood, even with the best will in the world it's unlikely, if not impossible, for a benefactor to place his club in a position of longterm safety. Eventually the money runs out
  
• Local business individually or as a collective. Personally I feel we have moved a long way since the successful local businessman could support his local club. Ultimately a profit will be required or the money runs out
  
• Venture capital of some form. Profit will be required and a sell on in the future
  
• Foreign ownership with a view to media profile for the business or profit or both
  
• Full community ownership by a supporters Trust
  
• Seat on the board for a supporters Trust (not really ownership, just representation)
  
• Bundesliga model 51% supporter ownership and 49% other
  

I'm not aware of other possibilites and think I've described the above accurately enough. I'm trying to discuss principles here not detail. The are two issues with any form of benefactor or commercial ownership, either the money runs out or profits are made /not made. Any business organisation buying a football club will want commercial gain in some form, if not why not? Money is crucial to this owner. Supporters expect owners to "invest" in the club, this means pouring in money with no return. It's unrealistic.

For me the sustainability and stability of a football club has to be through community ownership where the "profit" is the community benefit. With the exception of a few elite clubs it's hard to see any model involving financial profit can be sustainable. This industry is already £3.5 - £4 billion in debt despite 20 years of Sky GIVING, it has not been earnt, to the clubs. How on earth can this work in the longterm?

I agree with a lot of Rev's post. I think a trust as part of a Prem or Champs club should only really aim to get a percentage ownership and a seat on the board. This would be a really positive step.

Even if a well-schooled administrator could be brought in, e.g. JW, any aspirations for full ownership don't add up, in my view.

What about the Bundesliga clubs? 51% fan ownership, huge crowds, cheap tickets and as I understand it a healthy league. Community ownership doesn't have to be 100% and certainly does not rule out experienced administrators and management. Again this is a personal view but I believe the success of community ownership at our level would demand such people running the club.

There may be a lot of TV income to spend but all the other clubs get that PLUS their other, bigger, income streams. Even with some fair play rules introduced - and it's not yet clear if the PL will adopt them - it wouldn't be a level playing field as they'd be cosmetic and ways around them would be found.

If we were sustainable and self-financing there would have been little reason for the Walker Trust to sell up.

Stuart clearly you are correct in the first sentence but it has always been the case, pre and post Venkys. I feel yourself, Revidge and many others live in hope of money being thrown at the club. Yes it has become a billionaires game but how many PL clubs are actually owned by billionaires? What happens when they lose interest or die? We've experienced the latter, ultimately it ends in tears - we know that as well.

Any football club needs other income streams. One thing I've learnt through involvement with the Trust is some clubs are able to access unexpected investment or income streams. Supporter ownership is through a Community Benefit Society. The key word here is community; this is not just about owning the club, this is about what the Trust can bring to the community. Talk to Andy Walsh at FC United, a CBS owned club. He will tell you how FC's strong links with and work in the local comnunity have lead to financial support from areas which recognise this. The investment is seen as an investment in the community for the community's longterm benefit and not only in the club. The football club is the focus of the community and as such it's success spreads and benefits all.

In the roughly 18 year period Rovers played in the Sky era prior to Venkys arrival the PL clubs collectively ran up debts of £3.5 - 4 billion. The Rovers contribution to that figure was +/- £23m. We might not be self-financing but those figures demonstrate the club was a model for others and as close as damn it to becoming self-financing.

We need Venkys to either learn fast about what the club means to the community and invite a trust organisation to have a seat on the board, or sell to a person or organisation with the funds and foresight to do the same.

With the funds? This is more about an unsustainable model. Why should commercial owners/investors continue to "invest" in an industry which has proved itself incapable of managing enormous sums? A trust owned club provides a different model, one where profits are made for the club not the ownership. We really have to stop asking for outsiders to keep throwing money at our club, it doesn't work in the longterm. What serious indications are there Venkys will ever understand what the club means to the town. Who is most likely to understand this point? I think the answer is clear.

As fans we have to stop asking what the club can do for us. This sounds trite but ask not what your club can do for you, ask what you can do for your club! Apologies to JFK. Start by putting just £10 a year into Rovers Trust membership.

Rovers Trust is about being ready for whatever opportunities, or disaster, come our way. What those will be is difficult to say. Do not forget Portsmouth Supporters Trust became the preferred bidder, those guys had to scramble like mad to become organised. Rovers Trust will be ready when any opportunity arises.

[Ozz]

There may be a lot of TV income to spend but all the other clubs get that PLUS their other, bigger, income streams. Even with some fair play rules introduced - and it's not yet clear if the PL will adopt them - it wouldn't be a level playing field as they'd be cosmetic and ways around them would be found.

The way it should work is for ALL clubs to have a majority Trust ownership, and for the FFP rules to be adjusted to prevent massive cash injections of any sort by private benefactors, where the purpose of the cash injection is to give any club an unfair advantage. Once a level playing field is truly established, the Trust model works great.

But until then it needs the weaker clubs to take the lead. A bit like Turkeys voting for Christmas initially, but in the long run it is the only way forward to get rid of the current crazy situation where the rich clubs get richer and the rest are only here to make the numbers up.

[Exiled in Toronto]

In the roughly 18 year period Rovers played in the Sky era prior to Venkys arrival the PL clubs collectively ran up debts of £3.5 - 4 billion. The Rovers contribution to that figure was +/- £23m. We might not be self-financing but those figures demonstrate the club was a model for others and as close as damn it to becoming self-financing.

Plus the 130 million Jack and then the Trust put it where the debt was subsequently converted to equity. It was still expenditure over and above income. We were nothing like self-financing.

[he6rt6gr6m]

Just changed all my plans....flight booked for friday plus Car Hire. if anything the Trust meeting more important than the Millwall match.

Bizarre choice of venue? Ewood is our Cathedral.

Loving the commitment here. Superb.

[Paul]

Plus the 130 million Jack and then the Trust put it where the debt was subsequently converted to equity. It was still expenditure over and above income. We were nothing like self-financing.

Yes fair comment, I hadn't thought that far back.

[Glenn]

Did anyone get our leaflet handed to them before the match on Saturday? How many of you are going to come to the launch next Saturday?

Yes and at least 2.

[Blackburn Ender]

I remember a conversation with John Williams years ago where I said the amount of money going from TV to players was bonkers and unsustainable for a sensible competitive league.

He had no answer. He said he sat in the meetings with his fellow chairmen and argued for fiscal responsibility and got nowhere.

Somehow, we have to get the players wages down. Not saying it's either possible or likely, but I think we all know the biggest problem with inequality in English football ultimately comes down to the ridiculous wages players are paid.

There is so much money that could be invested in real improvements in grass roots football at no cost to top flight clubs......

[Guest Wen Y Hu]

Piece on the front page about the official launch here.

[Paul]

I remember a conversation with John Williams years ago where I said the amount of money going from TV to players was bonkers and unsustainable for a sensible competitive league.

He had no answer. He said he sat in the meetings with his fellow chairmen and argued for fiscal responsibility and got nowhere.

Somehow, we have to get the players wages down. Not saying it's either possible or likely, but I think we all know the biggest problem with inequality in English football ultimately comes down to the ridiculous wages players are paid.

There is so much money that could be invested in real improvements in grass roots football at no cost to top flight clubs......

I recall when Sky announced a significant jump in monies to the PL if this would be retained by the clubs or paid to the players. At the time JW said there was a consensus in favour of trying to control wage inflation - sadly it didn't come to fruition

[jim mk2]

I remember a conversation with John Williams years ago where I said the amount of money going from TV to players was bonkers and unsustainable for a sensible competitive league.

He had no answer. He said he sat in the meetings with his fellow chairmen and argued for fiscal responsibility and got nowhere.

.

The solution is of course wage caps which are common in rugby league and rugby union and in US sport but have never been implemented in football owing to the vested interests of the Champions League clubs. Until football grasps the wage cap nettle players will continue to be paid ludicrous wages, mid to smaller sized clubs will struggle to compete and football inequality will continue to make the Premeir League uncompetitive and a pointless exercise for all those outside the elite.