[Archived] Rovers Trust

[Ste B]

Without causing #groupgate we will add others.

[Parsonblue]

Without causing #groupgate we will add others.

Can we have one that says "I want no part of any group" please?

[Wayne Wild]

You can also have one that says "I now have no club" if things continue as they are and everyone decides to do nothing.

Since becoming active on this forum recently I'm generally amazed at the amount of criticism that the supporter groups get. I understand that in-bickering can cause frustration but I would much much rather have that than complete apathy and an attitude of non involvement.

I will reiterate other posts. If you want to join any group then please do and help, if not then that is your prerogative but please don't criticise just for the sake of it while individuals of all groups undertake a huge amount of personal time to help the cause.

[T.J.Newton]

You can also have one that says "I now have no club" if things continue as they are and everyone decides to do nothing.

Since becoming active on this forum recently I'm generally amazed at the amount of criticism that the supporter groups get. I understand that in-bickering can cause frustration but I would much much rather have that than complete apathy and an attitude of non involvement.

I will reiterate other posts. If you want to join any group then please do and help, if not then that is your prerogative but please don't criticise just for the sake of it while individuals of all groups undertake a huge amount of personal time to help the cause.

I think generally speaking(right across the fan base) nobody trusts any of the groups(particularly the group leaders) and everybody has the right to QUESTION their actions and motivations.

[Parsonblue]

You can also have one that says "I now have no club" if things continue as they are and everyone decides to do nothing.

Since becoming active on this forum recently I'm generally amazed at the amount of criticism that the supporter groups get. I understand that in-bickering can cause frustration but I would much much rather have that than complete apathy and an attitude of non involvement.

I will reiterate other posts. If you want to join any group then please do and help, if not then that is your prerogative but please don't criticise just for the sake of it while individuals of all groups undertake a huge amount of personal time to help the cause.

By doing nothing I assume you mean to decide not to put a grand into the pockets of a group whose aims I disagree with. Believe it or not there are thousands of supporters who care for the future well being of the club but who simply don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward. I have seen nothing in either group which makes me think that they would offer anything better than the shambles that we already have. You may not agree with my view but, as you say, it is my prerogative to hold that view and to express it on a forum. Others have a different view and I fully respect their right to express those views.

[he6rt6gr6m]

You don't HAVE to put a grand in. I wish people would get this. Good to see so many happy to give the Venky's their trust and money so willingly though. Even after the past two years.

We have it all to lose, yet we are bad for wanting a secure future for our Football Club, while they have nothing to lose but loose change and an already scarred national reputation. It's a no-brainer, in my eyes, even with my bias aside.

[Stuart]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Parsonblue" data-cid="1349476" data-time="1355703359"><p>

<br />

By doing nothing I assume you mean to decide not to put a grand into the pockets of a group whose aims I disagree with. Believe it or not there are thousands of supporters who care for the future well being of the club but who simply don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward. I have seen nothing in either group which makes me think that they would offer anything better than the shambles that we already have. You may not agree with my view but, as you say, it is my prerogative to hold that view and to express it on a forum. Others have a different view and I fully respect their right to express those views. </p></blockquote>

What would you want to see any of the groups do that you would agree with/support?

Currently we have:

A group trying to generate independent and wide-reaching dialogue with the club - to hold the club to account on behalf of an alleged 7000+ supporters (a big percentage these days).

A group trying to maintain a co-dependent dialogue with the club - to protect the interests of supporters.

A group trying to generate funds to achieve full or part ownership in the club - to protect its long term future.

The only one missing seems to be old BRAG - a group determined to see the back of Venkys and Kean. This group were the most maligned and lowest supported of all. Do you want this back?

If not, what is it you would like to happen and how would you go about it?

It just strikes me that the backbiting is more to do with personalities than policy.

[perthblue02]

Can we have one that says "I want no part of any group" please?

[Wayne Wild]

I think generally speaking(right across the fan base) nobody trusts any of the groups(particularly the group leaders) and everybody has the right to QUESTION their actions and motivations.

Absolutely. So here is your chance, ask me directly. As you can see I am using my own name so Ive nothing whatsoever to hide. Ask me as many direct questions as you like.

[SouthAussieRover]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Stuart" data-cid="1349498" data-time="1355731094"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Parsonblue" data-cid="1349476" data-time="1355703359"><p><br />

<br /><br />

By doing nothing I assume you mean to decide not to put a grand into the pockets of a group whose aims I disagree with. Believe it or not there are thousands of supporters who care for the future well being of the club but who simply don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward. I have seen nothing in either group which makes me think that they would offer anything better than the shambles that we already have. You may not agree with my view but, as you say, it is my prerogative to hold that view and to express it on a forum. Others have a different view and I fully respect their right to express those views. </p></blockquote><br />

<br />

What would you want to see any of the groups do that you would agree with/support?<br />

<br />

Currently we have:<br />

<br />

A group trying to generate independent and wide-reaching dialogue with the club - to hold the club to account on behalf of an alleged 7000+ supporters (a big percentage these days).<br />

<br />

A group trying to maintain a co-dependent dialogue with the club - to protect the interests of supporters.<br />

<br />

A group trying to generate funds to achieve full or part ownership in the club - to protect its long term future.<br />

<br />

The only one missing seems to be old BRAG - a group determined to see the back of Venkys and Kean. This group were the most maligned and lowest supported of all. Do you want this back?<br />

<br />

If not, what is it you would like to happen and how would you go about it?<br />

<br />

It just strikes me that the backbiting is more to do with personalities than policy.</p></blockquote>

A Venkys out group would be tickety boo.

[Wayne Wild]

By doing nothing I assume you mean to decide not to put a grand into the pockets of a group whose aims I disagree with. Believe it or not there are thousands of supporters who care for the future well being of the club but who simply don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward. I have seen nothing in either group which makes me think that they would offer anything better than the shambles that we already have. You may not agree with my view but, as you say, it is my prerogative to hold that view and to express it on a forum. Others have a different view and I fully respect their right to express those views.

"grand into the pockets of a group" - You have 2 options within Rovers Trust,

1- Join as a member for £10 per annum and have the same voting rights as a sharholder, 1 member 1 vote.

2- Purchase shares at £1000 to help the Trust purchase shares of BRFC.

This money does not go into the pockets of the group.

"don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward" - We all have our own views of course, if neither group is the way forward then what is ? We would all like nothing more than to get on with our day jobs and family lives and leave the owners to run the club in a successful and enjoyable manner. The past 2 years have been the opposite and we are offering a way forward to help, not hinder.

We are an open and inclusive organisation and constantly explore new ideas and options. So, please let me know what you think the forward plan should be so we can all consider its viability.

[SouthAussieRover]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="perthblue02" data-cid="1349500" data-time="1355731393"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Parsonblue" data-cid="1349453" data-time="1355699100"><p>Can we have one that says "I want no part of any group" please?</p></blockquote>

<span rel='lightbox'><img src='http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd463/perthblue02/brfcsnogroups.png' alt='Posted Image' class='bbc_img' /></span></p></blockquote>

No entry.

I like it lol

[Parsonblue]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Parsonblue" data-cid="1349476" data-time="1355703359"><p>

<br />

By doing nothing I assume you mean to decide not to put a grand into the pockets of a group whose aims I disagree with. Believe it or not there are thousands of supporters who care for the future well being of the club but who simply don't believe the Trust or the Action Group are the right way forward. I have seen nothing in either group which makes me think that they would offer anything better than the shambles that we already have. You may not agree with my view but, as you say, it is my prerogative to hold that view and to express it on a forum. Others have a different view and I fully respect their right to express those views. </p></blockquote>

What would you want to see any of the groups do that you would agree with/support?

Currently we have:

A group trying to generate independent and wide-reaching dialogue with the club - to hold the club to account on behalf of an alleged 7000+ supporters (a big percentage these days).

A group trying to maintain a co-dependent dialogue with the club - to protect the interests of supporters.

A group trying to generate funds to achieve full or part ownership in the club - to protect its long term future.

The only one missing seems to be old BRAG - a group determined to see the back of Venkys and Kean. This group were the most maligned and lowest supported of all. Do you want this back?

If not, what is it you would like to happen and how would you go about it?

It just strikes me that the backbiting is more to do with personalities than policy.

That's my point Stuart you don't have to have an alternative to have doubts about the viability of the Trust. It's £10 to join which seems to me a not unreasonable fee for joining a supporters organisation. However, if people only pay this and don't put in the £1,000 how do the Trust buy part of the club? If it was simpy a Supporters Club I could see it's value but it's the attempt at trying to buy into the club that I have my doubts about. Firstly, I doubt sufficient funds could be raised to buy a large enough chunk of the club at present to have any telling influence in decisions. Secondly if the Trust bought a sizeable share how would it cover running costs? It all seems to be built on the belief that the community would come together and support the club in large numbers but the history of Blackburn Rovers shows otherwise. The community didn't come together to support the club in the late 60s and early 70s when we fell on hard times. Nor did gates improve in the 80s when we were a decent middling Second Division team. I would also argue that expectations of the fanbase at that time were generally much lower than they are today.

My quip about having a badge for those who don't want to be in a group was a little tongue in cheek but the response shows how passionate people are about the various groups - is this a good thing or are the various groups becoming more important that the club? I'm really not sure. I have no doubts that all involved are passionate Rovers supporters but we have seen this season, particularly at away matches, that sometimes the passions run over.

Mr. Wild, apologies for my poor choice of words about the "grand in the pockets of the group". I was merely trying to impy, as I outline above, that for the Trust to achieve it's aim of buying into the club you will need the majority of your members to pledge the £1,000. If I have got that wrong and you can buy into it without those pledges I apologise for being mistaken.

[Wayne Wild]

Parsonblue, you are correct that in order for the Trust to be fully functioning we need as many people as possible to purchase £1000 shares. This is the same for ALL supporter trusts. Please look at the Pompey Trust and RangersFC Trusts, both of which are heavily reliant on supporters putting money into buying a share of the club. There is no other way that supporters can truly have a part in the real decision making process. The £10 membership is to make the trust a fully inclusive organisation so that having wealth doesn't bar supporters from having a voice, but without the £1000 share sales also we cannot buy a stake.

Having a stake however small DOES ABSOLUTELY give you a voice. The supporters are the customers to the business that the owners own. It affects the revenue and ultimately costs. A smaller club like BRFC must take the will of supporters into consideration in order for it to thrive and survive. If this current trend of apathy and disillussionment continues and the crowds continue to shrink then we will all fear for the worst.

[yoda]

Parsonblue, you are correct that in order for the Trust to be fully functioning we need as many people as possible to purchase £1000 shares. This is the same for ALL supporter trusts. Please look at the Pompey Trust and RangersFC Trusts, both of which are heavily reliant on supporters putting money into buying a share of the club. There is no other way that supporters can truly have a part in the real decision making process. The £10 membership is to make the trust a fully inclusive organisation so that having wealth doesn't bar supporters from having a voice, but without the £1000 share sales also we cannot buy a stake.

Having a stake however small DOES ABSOLUTELY give you a voice. The supporters are the customers to the business that the owners own. It affects the revenue and ultimately costs. A smaller club like BRFC must take the will of supporters into consideration in order for it to thrive and survive. If this current trend of apathy and disillussionment continues and the crowds continue to shrink then we will all fear for the worst.

That is the point, the current owners do not do this, never have done and never will, are you to close to see this?

[47er]

I think generally speaking(right across the fan base) nobody trusts any of the groups(particularly the group leaders) and everybody has the right to QUESTION their actions and motivations.

I applaud ANY group trying to do something For Gods Sake.

I spit in the general direction of those who criticise them while doing NOTHING.

Have not yet pledged and see no hurry about it but will. If nothing comes of it, at least they will have tried. You?

[Parsonblue]

Thanks for your response Wayne, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. I will, indeed, look more into the Pompey and Rangers Trusts but am I not right in thinking that even the Swansea Trust was set up when the club was drinking at the last chance saloon? I totally agree about your comments about apathy and disillusionment and that was the point I was making about my own experiences of following the club during the 60s and 70s.

[rovers_rob]

I have said this before but here is where I am at. ...still.

I pledged £1000 last season when the situation was desperate, there were people from the Action Group that were telling us we were in meltdown, there were people telling us that Venkys were asset strippers, we were told that we were facing a fire sale in the summer and all players would be sold. We were told that we might not even have a club to support.

At the time the situation looked dire and as a last resort I would have paid a grand towards saving the club.

Now we are in a different position, on the pitch we are struggling but we have a new manager and money has been spent on players. I'm not saying everything is rosy but the absolute horror stories that were being talked about hasn't exactly happened.

In fact it looks as though the Action Group has done a complete u turn and now they are fully supportive of Venky's. The same group were fully supportive of the Rovers Trust and now I'm not even sure where they support them or not.

You get people from the trust saying the club is a shambles and then in the next breath they are saying they want to work with the club. Comments from he6rt6gr6m saying "Good to see so many happy to give the Venky's their trust and money so willingly though. Even after the past two years". - What the hell is that supposed to mean ? I find it so patronizing Am I supposed to feel guilty or something for spending money on the club I love and support ?

The bickering between groups is just...well its ridiculous, childish, pathetic...I immediately switched of the radio then the chap from the Rovers Trust mentioned that the Fans Forum were unhappy that Shebby was focusing more on the Action Group.

All this has to stop. It is masking all the good work that is being done but us non groupies immediately switch of when stuff like this happens.

I want to get on board with a group but after the last 2 years with venkys, talks of other foreign groups wanting to take over, meltdown, dossiers, fans forum, action group, BRSIT, Rovers Trust...I am completely drained by it.

I'm not the only one who feels like this either. I am too suspicious of anything and everything around the club so the only thing I am going to do at the moment is support the team on the pitch (who picks the team again ? see, I can't even watch a game without thinking something is wrong with that as well).

I appreciate that all the "groups" spend a lot of there own time and they are passionate fans but if you are not a member of a group that does not mean you are not passionate. I am passionate but I am also confused as hell.

[Wayne Wild]

Meadow, at what juncture does any of our public messages or information incinuate that anyone who doesn't join is not a non-supporter ?

The answer is clearly nowhere. The Rovers Trust is a platform that is trying to give supporters a chance to own a share of their football club.

We welcome all other diverse supporter groups, in fact the majority of the steering group are also members of other groups.

To support the fact that a large number of people cannot afford to buy shares a £10 annum membership gives you the same voting rights as fully paid up £1000 per share holders, with junior memberships at £5 per annum.

Members of my family and close friends have decided not to join, for a varied number of reasons, do I hold a grievance with this ? of course not. Lets make sure any debates or statements are sensible. Your support would be very welcome but equally we welcome any supporters to voice their concerns in whatever format or arena they feel best suited or comfortable with.

[Wayne Wild]

I have said this before but here is where I am at. ...still.

I want to get on board with a group but after the last 2 years with venkys, talks of other foreign groups wanting to take over, meltdown, dossiers, fans forum, action group, BRSIT, Rovers Trust...I am completely drained by it.

I appreciate that all the "groups" spend a lot of there own time and they are passionate fans but if you are not a member of a group that does not mean you are not passionate. I am passionate but I am also confused as hell.

rovers_rob, Your level of frustration is probably on a par with many other supporters at the moment. Who clearly just want to watch a game of football, enjoy discussing the team play and generally enjoy the occasion. That is no different to any of the steering groups or supporter committees either. It also doesnt mean that anyone who doesnt join any of the organisations are not passionate either.

We are trying desperately hard, in whatever format we can, to clearly put the message out to all supporters.

1- RT are creating a platform to allow supporters to either become an annual member or purchase £1000 shares.

2- We hope to purchase in full (agreed unlikely) or a part share (however big or small) in the club.

3- To work with the current or any future owners for the long term benefit of its supporters.

We are NOT anti Venkys. We can either share in the success of the club OR be a supporting structure should the club fall on hard times.

There are No personal agendas, there are NO criticisms of individuals who dont want to join, there are NO criticisms of other groups reasons for existance.

When a number of groups exist and when a group has a steering committee of 15 people or so there will always be differing opinions, similar to different polical parties and the members of those parties. Only through debate and understanding can then an individual make a decision on if they want to get directly involved or not. But without some forms of platform or other clearly there is nowhere to get involved even if you wanted to.

[Stuart]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Parsonblue" data-cid="1349514" data-time="1355732554"><p>

<br />

That's my point Stuart you don't have to have an alternative to have doubts about the viability of the Trust. It's £10 to join which seems to me a not unreasonable fee for joining a supporters organisation. However, if people only pay this and don't put in the £1,000 how do the Trust buy part of the club? If it was simpy a Supporters Club I could see it's value but it's the attempt at trying to buy into the club that I have my doubts about. Firstly, I doubt sufficient funds could be raised to buy a large enough chunk of the club at present to have any telling influence in decisions. Secondly if the Trust bought a sizeable share how would it cover running costs? It all seems to be built on the belief that the community would come together and support the club in large numbers but the history of Blackburn Rovers shows otherwise. The community didn't come together to support the club in the late 60s and early 70s when we fell on hard times. Nor did gates improve in the 80s when we were a decent middling Second Division team. I would also argue that expectations of the fanbase at that time were generally much lower than they are today.<br />

<br />

My quip about having a badge for those who don't want to be in a group was a little tongue in cheek but the response shows how passionate people are about the various groups - is this a good thing or are the various groups becoming more important that the club? I'm really not sure. I have no doubts that all involved are passionate Rovers supporters but we have seen this season, particularly at away matches, that sometimes the passions run over.<br />

<br />

Mr. Wild, apologies for my poor choice of words about the "grand in the pockets of the group". I was merely trying to impy, as I outline above, that for the Trust to achieve it's aim of buying into the club you will need the majority of your members to pledge the £1,000. If I have got that wrong and you can buy into it without those pledges I apologise for being mistaken.</p></blockquote>

It's an interesting debate, PB, and, to be honest, one that I could be having - even more emotively - with several members of my own family. People who wouldn't dream of joining an Action Group - or even "chucking a tenner away" by giving it to the Rovers Trust - let alone spending a grand to try to co-purchase it. It's already a stretch, for some, to justify buying a season ticket so spending four times that without really knowing what they are getting themselves (or getting themselves into) for their very hard earned - and hard saved cash - is an even bigger stretch.

This is the problem the Trust faces with the people of Blackburn. The reality is most season ticket holders could probably be persuaded to become members of a supporters club but much less likely ordinary townsfolk will be able to financially back the club to the required level.

But the point is, it's all well and good saying "it will never work" - history is filled with naysayers and those who proved the naysayers wrong, and I find it hard to believe that doing nothing will result in people's concerns being addressed.

I'm sure like many (me included) you want a return to the PL days or at the very least be challenging for it. That looks less and less likely to be achieved by trusting Venkys and their advisors to make the right decisions - as we have seen time and time again.

So what do we do? Wallow in self-pity? Cross our fingers and wait? Get up and do something? Put all of our efforts into decrying the efforts of those who do want to do something, so we can - when we have sat back and watched it allowed it to fail and say "I told you so". How good will that feel? Or do we support a bunch of people who do want to do something - however difficult it seems?

I think this is a question we all need to ask ourselves over the coming months - because I can see the day coming when we are absolutely dependent on the Rovers Trust to "do something", or we will all be "doing something else".

I hope and pray that I am wrong.

[47er]

I envisage I will never be in a financial position whereby I am able to pledge money to a football club, even one which occupies most of my daily thoughts, excites and disappoints me, dictates my moods, rules my calendar, that would be better spent on my family

Does that mean I can not be considered a fan or supporter? no I don't go to every single home game or very many away games but for year upon year upon year I was there for more games than most

Gradually my career often meant I had to be at other games not involving Rovers, marriage moved me away from Lancashire, family came along...now I'm back in Lancashire and go as often as I can, try to encourage my youngster to go...but does my non-attendance at some games or reluctance to commit personal funds render me a non-supporter?

No.

[Stuart]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="meadows" data-cid="1349567" data-time="1355743394"><p>

Not aiming any shots at you or the Trust Wayne but I have had at least one conversation at a match with an individual who I can't seem to remember having any great attachment to Rovers pre the Walker money years telling me "Your opinion is worthless if you don't go home and away week in week out any more" <br />

I don't know his name nor do I particularly care but was told by companions he was "a big noise with the trust" and various descriptions of not-dissimilar incidents elsewhere certainly ring a bell</p></blockquote>

If ever there was a post so packed full of innuendo and hearsay...

The trouble is, this kind of stuff quickly becomes "fact" before the person or persons involved say, "sorry my mistake" or "I was misinformed" - after the mud has stuck.

Unhelpful.

[ABBEY]

We are NOT anti Venkys.

not anti Venkys after what they have done...I absolutly detest them for what they have done to our club.

[Andy]

I envisage I will never be in a financial position whereby I am able to pledge money to a football club, even one which occupies most of my daily thoughts, excites and disappoints me, dictates my moods, rules my calendar, that would be better spent on my family

Does that mean I can not be considered a fan or supporter? no I don't go to every single home game or very many away games but for year upon year upon year I was there for more games than most

Gradually my career often meant I had to be at other games not involving Rovers, marriage moved me away from Lancashire, family came along...now I'm back in Lancashire and go as often as I can, try to encourage my youngster to go...but does my non-attendance at some games or reluctance to commit personal funds render me a non-supporter?

Completely and utterly agree.

Unless you have some serious wealth behind you (which the majority of Rovers fans don't) then you simply are not in a position to pledge a significant amount of money to a football club when you have a wife/husband/child whose needs are infinitely more important.

This is why the Trust will never work in reality; Rovers fans as a whole simply do not have the amount of money required to buy/support/sustain a professional football club.

Nice idea, but never realistically going to work.