[Archived] Rovers Trust

[RevidgeBlue]

Behave yourself Stuart, it's not a case of "some people sitting back and doing nothing" (like me) and others "fighting for the Club" (like you)

It may be that some like me feel that we're marginally better off remaining under the ownership of the Rao's (who may able and willing to pay our bills) until a better option comes along than revert to the ownership of the Trust. (who almost certainly can't or won't be able to as things stand)

If I'm the only one who thinks that then I'm in a minority of one but it's my opinion nonetheless.

It's a difference of opinion. I respect the fact you're doing what you feel you must do and what is best, you should respect the fact that I feel my view is the only realistic (though far from ideal) standpoint.

It doesn't make you a better fan than me nor vice versa.

I hope the Trust manages to sign up as many members as possible but in my view the "we're better fans than you attitude" will only serve to put people off somewhat.

[Stuart]

Behave yourself Stuart, it's not a case of "some people sitting back and doing nothing" (like me) and others "fighting for the Club" (like you)

It may be that some like me feel that we're marginally better off remaining under the ownership of the Rao's (who may able and willing to pay our bills) until a better option comes along than revert to the ownership of the Trust. (who almost certainly can't or won't be able to as things stand)

If I'm the only one who thinks that then I'm in a minority of one but it's my opinion nonetheless.

It's a difference of opinion. I respect the fact you're doing what you feel you must do and what is best, you should respect the fact that I feel my view is the only realistic (though far from ideal) standpoint.

It doesn't make you a better fan than me nor vice versa.

I hope the Trust manages to sign up as many members as possible but in my view the "we're better fans than you attitude" will only serve to put people off somewhat.

Your first paragraph is very specific whereas I'm being more general. I'm certainly not one of those directly fighting for the club - as part of the trust committee - and aside from backing those who are, with a low risk, I'm really not doing a lot more than you of truth be told. If I had more time I may be prepared to offer to get involved but between two other time consuming voluntary organisations I'm involved in, and a full time job - as well as a young family, it's not so easy.

I've said on a different thread that I used to think we were better off sticking with the hand that feeds but I do not feel that way any more. They are the hand that take - and they've taken all of the life and soul out of this club. With Venkys in control there may as well not be a football club in Blackburn. Pretty soon there may not be.

I have never said I'm any kind of super fan - far from it. The person talking about "true fans" was you, was it not? Besides, it's not about "better fans" it's about those still interested in Rovers and those who aren't. I'd suggest you are one of the former.

All I'm saying is that no-one should be trying to put people off doing something to try to improve the situation. If you don't want to do anything and would rather stick with Venkys that's fine. Set up a Facebook group "I'm sticking with Venkys, join me". See how many likes you get.

I accept we have different opinions, but I won't pour cold water on what people are doing. Not on this.

[Parsonblue]

I totally see where you are coming from Stuart but in my opinion - and I may well be wrong - it is not a £10 gamble. £10 is the annual subscription to be a member of the Trust, but unless you are all prepared to cough up £1,000 it really doesn't matter how many people join the Trust. How many of the present membership will be happy to pay £10 and have the same voting rights as someone who has paid £1,000? I think Swansea changed hands for £1 with an agreement for the new owners to refund money owed to the old owners. Does anybody really believe that Venkys will give the club away? Even if Venkys or any other owner were prepared to accept the Trust they would surely expect the Trust to contribute something on a regular basis to have a say in how the club is run. Furthermore, the Trust will never be equal partners in owning the club, unless Venkys are prepared to give it away, because of the costs that would involve. As a minority stakeholder you are going to have to try to persuade the majority stakeholders to your viewpoint on various matters. If they dig their heels in they will simply outvote the Trust. In those circumstances the Trust simply becomes another 'Fans Forum' a group of fans talking to the club but not having the power to carry out the ideas they want to see implemented.

I accept that my views are negative ones but it is possible to be passionate about the club and yet still have to be convinced about the practicalities of the Trust. I also accept that my concerns will only be answered once the Trust are accepted as part owners of the club. I can only hope that you are proved right and I'm proved wrong. Only time will tell.

[Eddie]

In the same boat as Parsonblue, who I think has explained the position perfectly.

I care passionately for the club and for that reason I have tremendous respect for everyone trying to improve the situation through the Trust, I just don't see how it is a viable option.

The way I see it is as follows:

- The Trust will never have enough funding to be an owner in the club unless someone offers them a golden share and for me this then raises two concerns.

1 - That I am not entirely sure that everyone involved in the Trust is qualified enough to be offering any sort of advice when it comes to how a football club is run. That isn't meant as an insult, but I would imagine that it is quite a diverse group and, no matter how intelligent they all may be (and I am not doubting that for a second), that doesn't mean that you are informed enough about the world and business of football to be making major decisions, even if it is simply related to appointments.

2 - That any owner who would want to offer the Trust a golden share is not really the kind of owner we would want. My great fear from the Trust is that the people running it manage to find a business or individual willing to stump up £20-30m and see this as their big chance. Realistically, no owner who is capable of putting in 100-150m over a 5-10 year period (which is really the sort of money we are talking about) is going to care what a supporters trust thinks about.

I am incredibly worried by that second scenario. It seems very likely to me that the Trust could be won over by a personable businessman who's pockets are not quite deep enough. That the initial investment will seem large, but that they have convinced themselves that they can somehow run this club as a self-sufficient business (see Dan's comments) and that they will, and I don't mean this to be insulting, see it as their chance at becoming involved in a takeover and the running of a football club.

I also fear that the club is selling people on the idea that it can achieve so much and that it isn't necessarily fair to be asking for an annual fee of £10 that may just cover the running costs of an organisation that has no contact with the owners, has no realistic potential buyer lined up and really is in no position to change anything in the near future.

I mean none of this as a personal insult to anyone, so I hope that it isn't being taken that way, but no only do I think the Trust's chance of achieving anything are very slim, I also think that it is far more likely to cause harm than it is to do any good. It is for that reason that I think that it should be questioned more and that those in charge should be held at least reasonably accountable for their public remarks.

If you want some constructive criticism on where to start: get your secretary to resign. Any professional organisation would be asking for it, no reason why the Trust should be any different.

[Stuart]

Niff-naff and trivial decisions will always go with a majority but I would hope that the Trust would have a golden share vote on really important matters.

If a new owner really wants what is best for the club and not themselves they should be able to acquiesce to certain 'demands' regarding fundamental issues such as the future sale of the club, going in. An owner who wants nothing to do with the Trust will tell it's own story. Maybe think of it as a litmus test.

So best case we have a group who have a little more say than simply a fans forum (which should continue separately) and have a good relationship with the owners. Why can Swansea work but Rovers can't - regardless of the terms of sale by Venkys. The principles should be the same.

Worst case: take a look at Pompey's Trust. Now they really are fighting to keep the club alive. Without them there may not be a professional football club in Portsmouth. Is it worth £10 to have that safety net? I suppose it depends whether one truly believes we'll be ok for the next two or three years by sticking with Venkys.

[Stuart]

In the same boat as Parsonblue, who I think has explained the position perfectly.

I care passionately for the club and for that reason I have tremendous respect for everyone trying to improve the situation through the Trust, I just don't see how it is a viable option.

The way I see it is as follows:

- The Trust will never have enough funding to be an owner in the club unless someone offers them a golden share and for me this then raises two concerns.

1 - That I am not entirely sure that everyone involved in the Trust is qualified enough to be offering any sort of advice when it comes to how a football club is run. That isn't meant as an insult, but I would imagine that it is quite a diverse group and, no matter how intelligent they all may be (and I am not doubting that for a second), that doesn't mean that you are informed enough about the world and business of football to be making major decisions, even if it is simply related to appointments.

2 - That any owner who would want to offer the Trust a golden share is not really the kind of owner we would want. My great fear from the Trust is that the people running it manage to find a business or individual willing to stump up £20-30m and see this as their big chance. Realistically, no owner who is capable of putting in 100-150m over a 5-10 year period (which is really the sort of money we are talking about) is going to care what a supporters trust thinks about.

I am incredibly worried by that second scenario. It seems very likely to me that the Trust could be won over by a personable businessman who's pockets are not quite deep enough. That the initial investment will seem large, but that they have convinced themselves that they can somehow run this club as a self-sufficient business (see Dan's comments) and that they will, and I don't mean this to be insulting, see it as their chance at becoming involved in a takeover and the running of a football club.

I also fear that the club is selling people on the idea that it can achieve so much and that it isn't necessarily fair to be asking for an annual fee of £10 that may just cover the running costs of an organisation that has no contact with the owners, has no realistic potential buyer lined up and really is in no position to change anything in the near future.

I mean none of this as a personal insult to anyone, so I hope that it isn't being taken that way, but no only do I think the Trust's chance of achieving anything are very slim, I also think that it is far more likely to cause harm than it is to do any good. It is for that reason that I think that it should be questioned more and that those in charge should be held at least reasonably accountable for their public remarks.

If you want some constructive criticism on where to start: get your secretary to resign. Any professional organisation would be asking for it, no reason why the Trust should be any different.

I'm struggling to agree with any if that, Eddie. It feels like you still think we are a PL club or even an attractive club for some (e.g.) Qatari takeover.

We are not. We are now a struggling Championship club. Whatever we think of Venkys and how quickly it has happened, that is the true level of a club our size. There's a reason it was called 'punching above our weight'.

We are a community club, for a small and shrinking community in a poor Northern town. Back on the day, we were a prosperous mill town and were hugely successful, the 19th century's Manchester United. Jack brought us back to life briefly 20 years ago, fairytale style but it's over.

[Eddie]

The true level of a club of our size still means that anyone taking it over needs to be able to spend at least £50m over 10 years (that includes purchasing the club). We're operating at monthly losses of £2-3m, even if you can relatively quickly right the ship and bring cut that by half, which would be doing quite well, you'd still be talking about losses of £3-10m in the first year.

As Rev and I have both said, the Venkys may be incompetent and inefficient, but at least they pay the bills. That is ten times better than good hearted owners who simply can't afford to keep a club operating.

[DE.]

As Rev and I have both said, the Venkys may be incompetent and inefficient, but at least they pay the bills. That is ten times better than good hearted owners who simply can't afford to keep a club operating.

The Bank of India pay the bills. Your praise should for now be directed towards them.

[Stuart]

But, as I seem to have to keep reiterating, the Trust's role (IMHO) is not to run the club alone. That would mean running the club in a way similar to Accrington Stanley - who are doing a bloody good job in the circumstances by the way -as a community enterprise.

What I think the Trust needs to do is simply support the owners in making the right decisions as a member of the board. I think some find that unpalatable - particularly Angry of Accrington - because they think it is about one individual but there will need to be someone to represent the Trust at that level,

Either way we need new owners - it would be preferably at the point where that changes the Trust can get involved. I'd be much happier if the club (and the Trust) were formally accountable to the fans.

I've actually lost the thrust of what we are arguing about because we seem to be talking about different things.

I want the Trust to have a stake in the club, you don't believe the Trust can sustain the costs of running a football club.

?

[Amo]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but in his Mirror column today, Savage said that Rovers fans should be careful what they wish for. Venky's ownership has been farcical and they "don't understand English football" but without them to pay the bills the club could be going to the wall like Pompey.

[Stuart]

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but in his Mirror column today, Savage said that Rovers fans should be careful what they wish for. Venky's ownership has been farcical and they "don't understand English football" but without them to pay the bills the club could be going to the wall like Pompey.

We are anyway. I can't see any other end game, Am'o.

The only thread we are pulling at is how soon it happens, and whether a majority owner can be found to pick up the pieces, or whether we fold on Venkys terms and timescales.

[K-Hod]

A lot of people seem to be suggesting that the Trust is our only, and best option.

As much as I think it would work in an ideal world, we don't have the fan base to make it work IMO, therefore nowhere near the funds required.

Say the trust took over tomorrow at the end of the season, and we had remained in the Championship, we'd be ridiculously skint before we knew it, and we'd have to sell the entire squad, and nailed on for relegation, (granted even if we do stay up, there will be a good chance of this next term) and probably -10 points.

How could we pay anyone's wages?

IMO, the best bet we can have is the Seneca takeover.

Interesting how Mr Wild discredited their bid as soon as it originally became known they were keen....

[Stuart]

IMO, the best bet we can have is the Seneca takeover.

...WITH the Trust as a percentage, or even golden, shareholder.

[Sparky Marky]

Can someone tell me how Seneca can fund this takeover. On paper, they are skint.

[K-Hod]

Can someone tell me how Seneca can fund this takeover. On paper, they are skint.

Didn't they have some investors or something? Can't remember the exact details...

[wampam]

i just cannot understand how half a million or 10 million for that matter can make any roads in at all.it is a nice idea but not possible. were we non league then it might be workable with a couple of thousand attendance. otherwise i just dont get it.

[perthblue02]

Appreciate that there are other things on going in the world of Rovers worthy of discussion , but who else thinks that the context of this thread would make a good podcast discussion? featuring one for the trust, one undecided and one against , there's some very valid points being made by all that imo would lead to an interesting debate that would flow better than a thread.

Do appreciate it would be a nightmare to try and arrange and chair etc

[Ricky]

Eddie, didn't you come on here posting something about wanting to buy the club when it was sold to venkys?? Now surely the trust is a more viable option than you trying to buy it!!

[Eddie]

Eddie, didn't you come on here posting something about wanting to buy the club when it was sold to venkys?? Now surely the trust is a more viable option than you trying to buy it!!

I did try and raise the funds through one or two people that I know, whilst it isn't particularly relevant, I would imagine that this stood a far better chance.

[Stuart]

I did try and raise the funds through one or two people that I know, whilst it isn't particularly relevant, I would imagine that this stood a far better chance.

Well sincere thanks at least for trying, Eddie.

[Sparky Marky]

I did try and raise the funds through one or two people that I know, whilst it isn't particularly relevant, I would imagine that this stood a far better chance.

Ended up with a chupa chups, conker and catapult when everyone emptied their pockets

[Eddie]

What I tried to do isn't really relevant to this discussion. This is a discussion about the financing and running of the Trust. If anyone wants to ask about what I tried to put together I am more than happy to answer any questions via private messages.

[Wayne Wild]

Rovers special BBC 5Live Monday night 7pm

A MUST LISTEN for all BRFC fans

Ian Battersby discussing all issues Rovers along with Phil Neville and Michael Owen.

Promises to have some gloves off comments.

[Amo]

"And another thing, how can we possibly take any organisation seriously

while it is headed by people with names like Ozz and Wayne. This is

Ewood Park, not Grange Hill."

Tbh, 'Wayne Wild' sounds like a porn star.

[47er]

Tbh, 'Wayne Wild' sounds like a porn star.

Tbh what's the use of that post other than to seem "clever"?

His name is his name, doesn't matter one iota in the scheme of things.