[Archived] Rovers Trust

[Paul]

Just to clarify, can anyone bid, or is only the trust able to bid, during the initial six months?

To be clear I am ONLY discussing the Community Right to Bid (CRB) and am choosing my words extremely carefully so I'd be grateful if people could be sure to take the sense and ask if I'm not clear. I only say this because we do not wish to start any hares running while attempting to answer questions relating to a hypothetical situation. The definitive answers could only be given in the event of a sale.

Under the CRB it is only the Trust who have to be informed and so under this piece of legislation it is only the Trust who can bid. This does not preclude other parties from bidding provided they know the opportunity exists.

The CRB requires the owners to inform BwD and the council to inform the Trust. The point being to prevent a secret sale which denies the community the opportunity to bid. Clearly this is new ground for myself, the Trust and the vast majority of local people and I can't pretend to have chapter and verse on the minutiae of the process should the club be put up for sale. There are some reasonable conclusions one can reach based on experience to date:

I am not convinced a sale and /or the invocation of the CRB would necessarily immediately become public knowledge. When the Trust nominated Ewood for ACV status nothing was said publicly for a number of reasons; to avoid placing undue pressure on the council, ourselves and answering hypothetical questions. When the Trust made the application this was placed on a BwD council meeting agenda, posted on the council website (I believe) and a sharp-eyed LT journo spotted it.

BwD have a responsibility to inform the community on matters which affect the community, hence the council agenda being published. Its my guess the same would apply to the CRB if the club was for sale - it could be found on the council website. This is a commercially sensitive process, the council has a responsibility to inform but not to create banner headlines.

In regard to the Trust and a public announcement this would be a commercial transaction. We do not know precisely what requirements would be placed on the Trust but as it's a CRB it seems highly unlikely there would be a ban on public discussion. I would suggest initially the Trust would say nothing while options are considered, following this clearly the Trust would want /need community support and wide-spread publicity would be key to this.

Exactly what the process would be remains to be seen. There are many instances of communities buying their pub, shop, village green etc. but a football club is a very different situation. Until a supporters group invokes their CRB the detail is unknown - being second could be a lot smarter than being the first!! This demonstrates the strength of Supporters Direct and football trusts; I was fortunate to have access to information others had worked extremely hard to establish, to have other trusts to act as a sounding board and gain from others experience. Being among the first ten or so to achieve ACV status is a good position, being first or coming to the table later is not so easy. Birmingham City for example are hitting a lot of problems.

I shall attempt to help others if asked in the future. On Thursday night I'll be at Lostock Sports & Social Club (it's glamour all the way!) helping with a North West Trusts regional meeting. The focus is on ACVs and cooperative finance. If anyone wants to attend Nothwich Vics will make you very welcome it begins at 7.30pm, cups of tea at 7.00pm! The address is:

Lostock Sports & Social Club

Works Lane

Northwich

Cheshire

CW9 7NW

[Stuart]

You are correct Paul, I think I meant kingmaker... or something!

I guess the ACV gives the 6 months grace to the Trust only but as with any sale, anyone could bid.

The last thing we would want is for the community to be divided over the sale of Ewood and I would hope that everyone would rally round the Trust. I would hate there to be a situation where the Trust like the look of a potential buyer and look to quickly let them know there won't be a Trust bid, only for a rival fan bid to be launched and the 6 month period to raise funds NOT be allowed.

At least this does give some say back to the fans - even if it's only a small one. It could be significant in preventing a quick deal being done behind our backs.

[Paul]

You're right Stuart and until a potential sale arrives no one can second guess the outcome or chain of events. I'd agree though that having achieved the ACV status it would be odd to walk a way from the opportunity without widespread consultation. This was done for the community and it should be the community's opportunity.

I suspect six months, which sounds like a good period of time, would suddenly seem very short.

[Stuart]

I reckon it would. You can count on me to help with the bucket collecting when the time comes though.

[thenonda]

Having spent weeks reading, asking questions and being given a clear understanding of the Localism Act I can assure everyone the ACV listing provides the Community Right to Bid under all circumstances. The comments above regarding continuing to trade as a football club are incorrect.

As for the two further comments re delaying a potential sale to a white knight I hope that is covered above. The ACV provides the protection Ewood needs AND it provides the community, town, fans with a CHOICE to refuse the right to buy or to proceed with it.

.......and while i'm about it. Attached to this post is a copy of the submission made to BwD. It's a PDF please feel free to read and ask any questions it raises.

cheers

What i meant is that blackburn rovers can be sold without triggering the ACV. Blackburn Rovers own ewood so the owner of the ground would not be changing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2430398/Manchester-United-owners-defeated-bid-fight-Old-Traffords-listing-Asset-Community-Value.html

"With the application granted, it now means that should the Glazers, or any future owners, decide to sell the ground, it would allow the supporters’ group a six-month period in which they could halt the sale and offer groups within the community - most probably led by MUST - the chance to make a bid for the stadium. "

That said i still think it is great that the trust has managed to get this to protect ewood.

[Ozz]

Thenonda I think this reply from the Govt dept answers this

"the stadium is listed and each element of a sale of the club and assets as a package will have separate elements which would be sold according to the law in that area such as the commercial rights, intellectual property etc. The stadium is real estate and the person doing the conveyancing work will have to supply a certificate that the land cannot be sold without the community group who listed the ACV being advised in accordance with the Localism Act. Any disposal of an asset which has been listed by a local authority has to comply with the Act. The Venky’s cannot therefore sell the stadium without notifying the council who would notify you"

[thenonda]

Thenonda I think this reply from the Govt dept answers this

"the stadium is listed and each element of a sale of the club and assets as a package will have separate elements which would be sold according to the law in that area such as the commercial rights, intellectual property etc. The stadium is real estate and the person doing the conveyancing work will have to supply a certificate that the land cannot be sold without the community group who listed the ACV being advised in accordance with the Localism Act. Any disposal of an asset which has been listed by a local authority has to comply with the Act. The Venky’s cannot therefore sell the stadium without notifying the council who would notify you"

It maybe me, but i cannot understand how this would work. Venky's want to sell their shares in VLL. Someone wants to buy them shares. Are you saying that they cannot sell them shares without notifying the Trust? Man Utd shares are sold on a daily basis...

[Ozz]

Surely selling some shares is hugely different to selling a majority stake in the club though? (Not an expert on mergers and acquisitions!)

[Paul]

It maybe me, but i cannot understand how this would work. Venky's want to sell their shares in VLL. Someone wants to buy them shares. Are you saying that they cannot sell them shares without notifying the Trust? Man Utd shares are sold on a daily basis...

You're right, in my personal view, the ACV cannot influence day to day share trading but I believe it would influence the sale of a controlling stake in the club.

We have to be careful over getting on to ground which none of us can claim to fully understand regarding the technicalities which is why, when asked the question, I went straight to Supporters Direct who in turn went to the relevant government department for advice. Myself I'm happy with the department's view. This is one of the major benefits of the SD support as we would never get such a response and underlines the importance of SD to all fans.

When I began this process my concern related to a ground sale for housing or whatever. I hadn't imagined the scenario under discussion!!

[Ozz]

Here is the Localism Act (Chapter 20) 2011 in full. The ACV section is Part 5, Chapter 3!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/20/pdfs/ukpga_20110020_en.pdf

[thenonda]

Here you go:

Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a relevant disposal of land:

if the disposal is of an estate in land on which a business is carried on and is at the same time, and to the same person, as a disposal of that business as a going concern.

As i said earlier, I think it is great that the Trust managed to get this we just need to be fully sure the reach it give us.

[thenonda]

Anybody else got any thoughts on this?

[Paul]

Anybody else got any thoughts on this?

I'm happy to discuss it but suspect we will go round in circles.

While appreciating the section you have quoted, which I haven't read before as my reading was focused on qualifying criteria etc., my view would still be with that expressed by the relevant government department. It's interesting United fought the application from MUST, Rovers put forward objections to BwD and I understand Birmingham City fans are struggling with the club which suggests to me the clubs do see this as a commercially difficult area. If the Act is as clear cut as the words suggest one would wonder why the clubs would spend money on resisting the nomination. The possibility of Utd leaving Old Trafford seems very slim and in reality Rovers moving from Ewood would appear unlikely at present.

Possibly a close reading and understanding of the relevant sections would reveal more? I'll have a look when I get time.

[perthblue02]

I'm happy to discuss it but suspect we will go round in circles.

While appreciating the section you have quoted, which I haven't read before as my reading was focused on qualifying criteria etc., my view would still be with that expressed by the relevant government department. It's interesting United fought the application from MUST, Rovers put forward objections to BwD and I understand Birmingham City fans are struggling with the club which suggests to me the clubs do see this as a commercially difficult area. If the Act is as clear cut as the words suggest one would wonder why the clubs would spend money on resisting the nomination. The possibility of Utd leaving Old Trafford seems very slim and in reality Rovers moving from Ewood would appear unlikely at present.

Possibly a close reading and understanding of the relevant sections would reveal more? I'll have a look when I get time.

Paul is it in the public domain what these objections were?

[Paul]

Paul is it in the public domain what these objections were?

Yes it is. Follow the link, put kettle on, drink coffee..................it is desperately slow to load! See pages 7&8

http://www.blackburn.gov.uk/Lists/DownloadableDocuments/Ewood-park-community-right-to-bid-report-BL2013ENQ05352.pdf

Though when I clicked the link it loaded immediately ? Beyond me as going through the Home page takes forever

[thenonda]

Probable reason for the objections by the clubs is the simple fact that the ACV will impact the next valuation of the clubs fixed assets which will in turn impact the balance sheet and value of the clubs in question.

[FGS5635]

Stripping the reasoning out for a minute, it does seem harsh that you can purchase something and then have it devalued by something as fairly simple as this

[only2garners]

Yes it is. Follow the link, put kettle on, drink coffee..................it is desperately slow to load! See pages 7&8

http://www.blackburn.gov.uk/Lists/DownloadableDocuments/Ewood-park-community-right-to-bid-report-BL2013ENQ05352.pdf

Though when I clicked the link it loaded immediately ? Beyond me as going through the Home page takes forever

Notwithstanding any objections the club made, they saw it as a fait accompli that the trust application would be approved at the time they put their response in to the council - Derek Shaw said as much at the last Fans Forum.

[Paul]

Here you go:

Subsection (1) does not apply in relation to a relevant disposal of land:

if the disposal is of an estate in land on which a business is carried on and is at the same time, and to the same person, as a disposal of that business as a going concern.

As i said earlier, I think it is great that the Trust managed to get this we just need to be fully sure the reach it give us.

Probable reason for the objections by the clubs is the simple fact that the ACV will impact the next valuation of the clubs fixed assets which will in turn impact the balance sheet and value of the clubs in question.

Taking the first post and then the second how does that stack up? In one breath the suggestion is if the club is sold as a going concern there is no impact on value, in the second it seems you're stating the ACV does impact the club's value?

I do think the ACV has the potential to impact the ground's value but if sold as a going concern probably not. Surely any change in value would be reflected in how the club has previously valued assets. For example if Ewood is valued as potential building land but planners refuse a change of use because of the ACV then I can see the value reducing but that is only because the ground was over-valued in the first place.

Supporters Direct have emailed DCLA on our behalf asking for clarification

[thenonda]

Taking the first post and then the second how does that stack up? In one breath the suggestion is if the club is sold as a going concern there is no impact on value, in the second it seems you're stating the ACV does impact the club's value?

I do think the ACV has the potential to impact the ground's value but if sold as a going concern probably not. Surely any change in value would be reflected in how the club has previously valued assets. For example if Ewood is valued as potential building land but planners refuse a change of use because of the ACV then I can see the value reducing but that is only because the ground was over-valued in the first place.

Supporters Direct have emailed DCLA on our behalf asking for clarification

My first point was with regards to the acv having any way of stopping the sale of the club.

The second point was my assumption to why clubs are fighting the acv applications.

[Ozz]

REMINDER-The Rovers Trust Annual General Meeting (Our First!) We be held on Monday evening at Darwen FC clubhouse. 7PM Start.

This is a great chance for members to meet the board, ask questions, see the accounts, and generally find out whats been happening and what plans we may have. Non members are of course welcome to attend too, there is a licence bar in there.

[Ozz]

Don`t forget the AGM tonight. YourTrust needs you!

7pm Darwen FC.

[AndyNeil]

can anybody who is going tonight, please pick me up a copy of the Accounts - I'm hoping to make it there, but it will be touch and go...

[only2garners]

I'll get you a set Andy if I don't see you there.

[Blue n White Rover]

Any major points to note from this meeting? Couldn't make it due to work commitments, however interested to see what was said.