[Archived] Venkys London Limited - Accounts

[broadsword]

Furthermore, didn't they undertake when they bought the club, to clear the debt? Was it not part of the takeover agreement?

Still waiting for Champion's League football as well, mind you.

[tomphil]

When talking about Venkys buying the club i think we have to look at the others who were seriously interested. Syed {dodgy), The IPL cricket mob (didnt have the money) and the Venkys. We have to ask what did these people identify in this club that made them want it so much, Venkys tossed the money and promises together from somewhere and it checked out. Now we are in my opinion seeing what the big attraction was for the fly by nights, continual creating of rapid financial black holes being bunged up by player sales (in a different and faster way than under the trust) that will continue until the well runs dry. All probably part of a 5 year plan or something. If we get back to the Prem all well and good but if not so be it, whatever is left at the end will be sold off cheaply with it's debts and plenty of pockets will have been stuffed along the way

[Athlete]

so basiclly wehere like a dying man in his own home waiting for his funeral car to turn up outside his house.........but don't panic 2 years ago we were told we'd be Champions league in 5 years so now were only 3 years off.........

[philipl]

I did speak with Nick Harris and we agreed that based on information I had found on the totality of VH, he had overstated VH by threefold.

However, since then I have been informed that the land bequeathed to each of the three children by the father is massive and of course land values in Pune are soaring on the back of the booming economy.

However, they or rather Balaji has to convert dusty tracts into cash- hence the mortgages and bank borrowings.

The reality is we are entirely at the whim of Balaji. He blocked the sale of the club a year ago and now he is the one putting chunks of inheritance on the line.

If we are being realistic in footballing terms, getting us promoted is going to be a two season job in which case Balaji could have to more than double his borrowings to over £100m. Others have pointed out to me privately that year end debt on 30 June could be over £60m.

If this is definitely Balaji's intent, the form of words on future funding would have been much definite. As it is, they say the minimum necessary to avoid a going concern qualification in my opinion.

[Athlete]

When talking about Venkys buying the club i think we have to look at the others who were seriously interested. Syed {dodgy), The IPL cricket mob (didnt have the money) and the Venkys. We have to ask what did these people identify in this club that made them want it so much, Venkys tossed the money and promises together from somewhere and it checked out. Now we are in my opinion seeing what the big attraction was for the fly by nights, continual creating of rapid financial black holes being bunged up by player sales (in a different and faster way than under the trust) that will continue until the well runs dry. All probably part of a 5 year plan or something. If we get back to the Prem all well and good but if not so be it, whatever is left at the end will be sold off cheaply with it's debts and plenty of pockets will have been stuffed along the way

that well is nearly at the bottom and in danger of running in out in 6 months time...

[OJRovers]

Its strange that the £21m loan (and underlying borrowing from BOI) wasn't included in the post balance sheet events section of the Mar-12 VLL accounts even though it theorectically should have happened at the latest on 30-June-12.

You would think that it was a material transaction which should've been disclosed. They mentioned specifically that the £3m Barclays debt had been paid in July. Yet they fail to mention the new £21m+ facility with BOI. Very strange. Not sure how Deloitte can justify that.

I don't think Deloitte have a clue what the banking arrangements are in India at this point in time. Good luck with the next VLL accounts audit.....

[RoverScot]

Its strange that the £21m loan (and underlying borrowing from BOI) wasn't included in the post balance sheet events section of the Mar-12 VLL accounts even though it theorectically should have happened at the latest on 30-June-12.

You would think that it was a material transaction which should've been disclosed. They mentioned specifically that the £3m Barclays debt had been paid in July. Yet they fail to mention the new £21m+ facility with BOI. Very strange. Not sure how Deloitte can justify that.

I don't think Deloitte have a clue what the banking arrangements are in India at this point in time. Good luck with the next VLL accounts audit.....

The 21 million figure is classed as a Debtor on page 23 of the Venkys London accounts under amounts owed by group undertakings.

[OJRovers]

The 21 million figure is classed as a Debtor on page 23 of the Venkys London accounts under amounts owed by group undertakings.

Have you got a working link to the VLL accounts? the one on page 1 seems to be broken

[RoverScot]

Have you got a working link to the VLL accounts? the one on page 1 seems to be broken

I don't have a link to it but I have the pdf of it.

[Rover_Shaun]

Can someone sum up for the financial nincompoops like me (select one answer to each)

The financial state of the club is.....

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

The financial future if promotion is acheived this season (ha ha ha ha ha ha).....

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

The future when we don't get promoted

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

Armageddon

[Ozz]

For the year ended June 2012 wages reached an unprecedented £50M. This represents a 92.2% Wage to turnover ratio, again a new high. The club was running at an £800K a month loss. With the arrival of Murphy, Rhodes and Etuhu that wage bill will surely be higher this year. John Williams could justify huge wage bills when we were finishing in the top ten of the Premier League. But to fund this and finish in the bottom three is madness.

Selling all our best players, replacing them with cheap imports, largely bought by agents, and the persistence with a manager totally out of his depth make our current position entirely unsurprising.

[Paul]

So to sum up for the financial nincompoops....

The financial state of the club is

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

The financial future if promotion is acheived this season (ha ha ha ha ha ha)

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

The future when we don't get promoted

Good

OK

bad

A complete mess

Armageddon

........................or perhaps this is the future http://www.roverstrust.co.uk

For fans worried by the figures which have been published in recent days the more support the Trust can gain the stronger we will be.

[broadsword]

Just to clarify, is that different form the body Glen Mullan is involved in?

[OJRovers]

The problem for the Trust is that Venkys have made BRFC a far less viable self sustaining business than when they took over.

We're now completely reliant on Bilaji's personal wealth. Not too dissimilar to Man City/Chelsea and many others, however it didn't need to be this way if the club has been run with the same diligence of the Walker Trust.

[Exiled in Toronto]

The reality is we are entirely at the whim of Balaji. He blocked the sale of the club a year ago and now he is the one putting chunks of inheritance on the line.

Were we not always going to be entirely at the whim of whoever paid 20+ million and took on a 20 million overdraft for a concern that was chronically loss making?

[Paul]

Just to clarify, is that different form the body Glen Mullan is involved in?

Yes. I'm afraid you will have to put up with me though! Rovers Trust is a fully legally constituted trust and the regulations and guidelines from Supporters Direct. It is precisely the same type of organisation as that which Portsmouth fans are using to buy their club from the administrator. Swansea City own 20% of their club through a trust.

http://www.supporter...-direct.org/ - Supporters Direct

http://www.roverstru...strust.co.uk - Rovers Trust

http://www.supporter...hares-update - Portsmouth

http://www.swanstrust.co.uk/ - Swansea

[CapeTownRover]

Paul, just a question around fans ownership of the club. How would we go about signing players, wages etc. Im guessing its easy to come up with the money, but how do the fans sustain the club? Would i assume, that the fans would look to then sell off a percentage to an investor to bank roll signings and day to day expenses?

[PAFELL]

Yes. I'm afraid you will have to put up with me though! Rovers Trust is a fully legally constituted trust and the regulations and guidelines from Supporters Direct. It is precisely the same type of organisation as that which Portsmouth fans are using to buy their club from the administrator. Swansea City own 20% of their club through a trust.

http://www.supporter...-direct.org/ - Supporters Direct

http://www.roverstru...strust.co.uk - Rovers Trust

http://www.supporter...hares-update - Portsmouth

http://www.swanstrus...trust.co.uk/ - Swansea

I believe there are simular type schemes in Germany as well. Very successful as well. Fans benefit with cheaper tickets and therefore attendances grow. I think a lot of man u fans would want to the same with their club. But the debt there is massive.

How are the pledges going with the roverstrust?

The problem for the Trust is that Venkys have made BRFC a far less viable self sustaining business than when they took over.

We're now completely reliant on Bilaji's personal wealth. Not too dissimilar to Man City/Chelsea and many others, however it didn't need to be this way if the club has been run with the same diligence of the Walker Trust.

Question is how long does Bilaji want to continue for or how long is he able to continue. Cannot see his siblings selling their land to fund his play thing.

[PAFELL]

Just been reading the accounts.

On page 23 section 15 it says:

Amount owed to parent undertaking: £21,000,000

(The amounts owed to the parent undertaking above are interest free, with no fixed date for repayment).

So from my limited understanding of these kind of documents I take it that this is the £21 million that Venky’s have borrowed from India State Bank have invested into the club? They have given it to the club as an interest fee loan?

Tony Bloom did the same for Brighton - though that amount was about 125 million. Interest free. But due about 2025. Big difference for them, he is a fan. So it is done this way, with other of club owners

Where venkys are concerned, they are not fans, so at anytime I suppose they could fix a date for repayment - which BRFC would not be able to pay - without selling assets.

[RoverScot]

Tony Bloom did the same for Brighton - though that amount was about 125 million. Interest free. But due about 2025. Big difference for them, he is a fan. So it is done this way, with other of club owners

Where venkys are concerned, they are not fans at anytime I suppose they could fix a date for repayment - which BRFC would not be able to pay - without selling assets.

At Bolton, they have a debt to their owners in 2011 of £106,497,000 which was due on demand or within a year.

This year it has increased to 124,831,000 but has been moved in the accounts to be paid back within 2-10 years to give a total debt of 134,016,000.

[Paul]

Paul, just a question around fans ownership of the club. How would we go about signing players, wages etc. Im guessing its easy to come up with the money, but how do the fans sustain the club? Would i assume, that the fans would look to then sell off a percentage to an investor to bank roll signings and day to day expenses?

This is one of the areas which often leads to confusion amongst supporters. Rovers Trust would not run the club on a day to day, football professionals would be appointed to do this in just the same manner as every other club. When the Walker Trust owned the club Rovers was run by TF and JW along with the usual management staff. That team headed by JW and TF ran the club on a daily basis. Therefore things such as signings, wages, ground maintenance, Brockhall, to name a few, would be the responsibility of the club management.

In financial terms we must distinguish between capital to purchase the club in whole or part which is where Rovers Trust would be heavily involved and income and expenses. Clearly the club has to live within its means, there would therefore be an annual budget designed to balance income and expenditure as in any other business. Income from the usual areas such as TV monies, gate receipts, sponsorship would pay the expenses. Rovers Trust is not looking to raise money to run the club, this has to come from football and other activities, the Trust is looking to raise the cash to buy part or full ownership of Rovers.

How are the pledges going with the roverstrust?

Things are moving along steadily in most areas. I'm not directly involved in the pledges side but do know others are busy talking to pledgers and bring them up to date with the Rovers Trust and how it relates to previous bodies.

The main focus for the Steering Committee at present, and will be for the coming months, is continuing to build membership by talking directly to the fans. We have a couple of initiatives which are in the planning stage and will hopefully see the light of day in the next few weeks.

[CapeTownRover]

Thanks for clearing that up Paul

[TBTF]

This is one of the areas which often leads to confusion amongst supporters. Rovers Trust would not run the club on a day to day, football professionals would be appointed to do this in just the same manner as every other club. When the Walker Trust owned the club Rovers was run by TF and JW along with the usual management staff. That team headed by JW and TF ran the club on a daily basis. Therefore things such as signings, wages, ground maintenance, Brockhall, to name a few, would be the responsibility of the club management.

In financial terms we must distinguish between capital to purchase the club in whole or part which is where Rovers Trust would be heavily involved and income and expenses. Clearly the club has to live within its means, there would therefore be an annual budget designed to balance income and expenditure as in any other business. Income from the usual areas such as TV monies, gate receipts, sponsorship would pay the expenses. Rovers Trust is not looking to raise money to run the club, this has to come from football and other activities, the Trust is looking to raise the cash to buy part or full ownership of Rovers.

Things are moving along steadily in most areas. I'm not directly involved in the pledges side but do know others are busy talking to pledgers and bring them up to date with the Rovers Trust and how it relates to previous bodies.

The main focus for the Steering Committee at present, and will be for the coming months, is continuing to build membership by talking directly to the fans. We have a couple of initiatives which are in the planning stage and will hopefully see the light of day in the next few weeks.

Paul

Thanks for the update.I think this is the bit we all have a problem understanding in that from what we have seen in the accounts today and read on here in terms of what they mean, who would pay anything for a share in the Club?? The club isn't worth anything now and if we do go up then its probably unaffordable becaus eof the big TV revenues.

You then go on to say that the club would need to live within its means and the Trust wouldnt get involved with that aspect.

I don't wish to be difficult but are you saying you would be prepared to pay for a share in something that isnt worth anything but thereafter would expect the Club to be self sufficient?? It hasn't been able to do that for many years which is why the Trust wanted out.Now, under Venkys the whole thing has got out of control and doesnt look capable of ever living within its means.

I am probably being thick but this is where a number of us can't quite get to grips with what your plan is financially.

Sorry Paul, i really am not trying to be difficult-and i hasten to add its a problem the Club will have with anyone coming in , not just the Trust. It looks like its for those with very deep pockets to me/us.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

So, seemingly, £37million of debt and speculated that we are losing some £2million per month.

Horrific situation - possibly £60m debt by end of this season ?

Really is sh1t or bust.

Berg HAS to get us up this season.

All the talk about the club boasting a profit is nothing more than the club selling the crown jewels last season...its nothing more than a false economy.Next years will be a true account of how this club is being run (into the ground) and will make for truly horrible reading no doubt.

[Paul]

TBTF

This is a great question and if a lot of people are wondering I'm glad you asked. I'm not going to try tonight as it needs some thought to make sure it's all clear.

Check back tomorrow mid morning. OK?