[Archived] The Relegation Thread

[DE.]

Please show where my post says Keane "wasn't so bad" or I am trying to "rewrite history".

Your post is also contradictory in that you admit football is a "results based business" yet our start to the season was "appalling in all aspects save results".

I saw most games at the start of the season and although we did not play well in some of them we played very well in others - did you see any of the games ?

Your statement that "there is no chance in hell that we would have continued chugging along at the top of the table playing the way we were at the start of the season" is pure speculation. For all you know we would could have won automatic promotion under Kean with more than 100 points.

I'll repeat - I loathed him as much as anyone and was glad when he left but if is a uncomfortable fact for Rovers fans that without our good start under him we would be contemplating third division football now.

I never mentioned you personally Jim, though it's interesting you felt the need to defend yourself so vigorously. I was actually thinking about other posters who have recently suggested Kean was half-decent. I assumed you were being deliberately provocative with your posts as you are surely not daft enough to think Kean could possibly manage a team to success in any professional league, much less this group of clowns.

I'm not going to go through your points one by one, but no, my point about football being a results based business is not contradictory because I highlight the contradiction myself and then offer my opinion as to why. My overall conclusion may be based on speculation, but looking at Kean's overall win % and our general standard of play over the games I'm confident it's fairly accurate. If you think we would have stormed the league with Kean in charge you are of course entitled to that opinion.

As for how many games I saw - I was at the match at Portman Road, of course, but otherwise relied on the opinions of people I trusted along with judging on the games that were on Sky during the period. If one goes back to the match threads at the start of the season there are comments plastered all over them talking about how insanely lucky we were at the time and how there was no chance it could continue. Again, you may disagree and think we were playing superbly at the start of the season, but I don't think we were.

[jim mk2]

I never mentioned you personally Jim, though it's interesting you felt the need to defend yourself so vigorously. I was actually thinking about other posters who have recently suggested Kean was half-decent. I assumed you were being deliberately provocative with your posts as you are surely not daft enough to think Kean could possibly manage a team to success in any professional league, much less this group of clowns.

I'm not going to go through your points one by one, but no, my point about football being a results based business is not contradictory because I highlight the contradiction myself and then offer my opinion as to why. My overall conclusion may be based on speculation, but looking at Kean's overall win % and our general standard of play over the games I'm confident it's fairly accurate. If you think we would have stormed the league with Kean in charge you are of course entitled to that opinion.

As for how many games I saw - I was at the match at Portman Road, of course, but otherwise relied on the opinions of people I trusted along with judging on the games that were on Sky during the period. If one goes back to the match threads at the start of the season there are comments plastered all over them talking about how insanely lucky we were at the time and how there was no chance it could continue. Again, you may disagree and think we were playing superbly at the start of the season, but I don't think we were.

You post was clearly directed at me but that response is more measured that your first poor effort.

I cannot see how you can come to your conclusions when you have seen only game. You cannot judge Rovers' performances based on the comments of people here because the anti-Kean mob mentality on this board meant no one had a good word to say about Kean even whe he got something right and even when Rovers played well. If you attended games regularly you would know that the anti-Kean bile on here was not reflected in the mood of the crowd.

Again you are putting words in my mouth about "playing superbly" and again you are being speculative in saying "there was no chance we would could continue" getting good results. You have no way of knowing this.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

[T4E]

I think because since Kean left, and things got worse, history is gradually being rewritten by certain people to suggest he wasn't so bad after all.

Our start to the season was appalling in all aspects save results, and whilst football is of course a results-based business, there is no chance in hell that we would have continued chugging along at the top of the table playing the way we were at the start of the season. The Boro match (Kean's last match?) was proof that we were awful and on the verge of being found out. Kean just left before the sh1t hit the fan.

He knows fine well that Kean was useless, he's just being a tiresome WUM.

[DE.]

You post was clearly directed at me but that response is more measured that your first poor effort.

I cannot see how you can come to your conclusions when you have seen only game. You cannot judge Rovers' performances based on the comments of people here because the anti-Kean mob mentality on this board meant no one had a good word to say about Kean even whe he got something right and even when Rovers played well. If you attended games regularly you would know that the anti-Kean bile on here was not reflected in the mood of the crowd.

Again you are putting words in my mouth about "playing superbly" and again you are being speculative in saying "there was no chance we would could continue" getting good results. You have no way of knowing this.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

It's strange that you can claim either of my posts have any quality when you don't appear to have read either of them. I can understand why you think I targeted you, but I'm afraid you're off target assuming I was. However, if you want to think that then it really doesn't matter to me.

As I said, there are people I trust who do go to the games regularly who keep my informed on how the team are doing. Their opinions always held true to my own when I attended alongside them a few years back, so I have no reason to assume their judgement is suddenly flawed. Similarly, posters whose opinions have always been sound on here were clear on how poorly we were playing. I'm confident enough therefore to hold the opinion I do, but if you don't think my opinion is valuable because I wasn't physically at the matches I'm not sure why you're responding to me at all as you should just consider my entire viewpoint invalid and ignore it completely.

The rest of your post is repeating what you said before, and I've already answered all of that so there's little more to say on the subject other than we'll have to agree to disagree.

[jim mk2]

It's s

The rest of your post is repeating what you said before, and I've already answered all of that so there's little more to say on the subject other than we'll have to agree to disagree.

Worth repeating because it is correct.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

[thenodrog]

He knows fine well that Kean was useless, he's just being a tiresome WUM.

Don't be so unkind T4E. Stop sniping cos there is a valid medical reason which is a perfect fit.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Paranoia

[booth]

Worth repeating because it is correct.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

His legacy is the main factor in us dangling over the relegation zone now.

[jim mk2]

His legacy is the main factor in us dangling over the relegation zone now.

The main factor is the owners and their daft decision-making. Kean is a just a symptom.

[Rover_Shaun]

Worth repeating because it is correct.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

I'm sure the table would be grim reading if you subtracted each managers total

[allan]

Kean was only in charge for 7 games in which there were 4 wins , 2 against teams likely to be relegated. The home wins against Hull and Leicester were complete flukes against the run of play and balance of goal chances. Once teams realised how static, lazy and slow the midfield is, and took the game on rather than standing off, the results turned bad. If Kean had stayed any longer October would have yielded even fewer points than it did.

[jw_]

Worth repeating because it is correct.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

What is indisputable is that the points he lost for us got us relegated from the Premier League.

[booth]

The main factor is the owners and their daft decision-making. Kean is a just a symptom.

The buck stops with them I agree, but when Kean muscled his way in as manager and made daft decision after daft decision, including cocking up the squad, has largely led to the situation we find ourselves in.

[ABBEY]

He knows fine well that Kean was useless, he's just being a tiresome WUM.

Or he's grumpy because someone's nicked his false gnashers

[Mike E]

Erm...Jim: The buck stops with the owners. But without Kean, we likely wouldn't have even dropped into this league. As others have said, without ANY of the points totals gained by our various managers, it'd look pretty grim. The ONLY manager worthy of any sort of thanks is the most successful one this season, which is Gary Bowyer.

Kean is nothing more than a lying bellend.

[roversfan99]

To be fair, it seems that he is saying that it is down to the amount of points we accumulated under Kean that we aren't in the bottom 3.

Technically that is correct and the luck or otherwise of those results is irrelevant. At no point (to my knowledge) did he say we needed him to stay, or that he would have taken us up.

[ABBEY]

Aye and ignores the points that took us down.

[Stuart]

Worth repeating because it is correct.

What is indisputable and with the usual disclaimer that I am not defending Kean is that without the points he gained for us at the start of the season we would be relegated now.

There's zero point in saying "of only we hadn't sacked Kean we'd be better off (equally speculative), when quite clearly that ship sailed with Allardyce.

To laments Kean's departure is akin to missing your ingrowing toenails after losing your leg.

[jim mk2]

There's zero point in saying "of only we hadn't sacked Kean we'd be better off (equally speculative), when quite clearly that ship sailed with Allardyce.

To laments Kean's departure is akin to missing your ingrowing toenails after losing your leg.

I didn't say we'd have been "better off" if we hadn't sacked Kean and at no stage did I "lament Kean's departure".

I only said we should be grateful for the great start to the season he gave us. It's not difficult to understand.

[neophox]

A better manager at the start of the season would had helped. Get the job done on saturday.

[LeChuck]

I only said we should be grateful for the great start to the season he gave us. It's not difficult to understand.

Grateful to whom though? Everyone could see we were winning those games with luck, performances were awful and results would have tailed off. So grateful to the footballing gods yes, but grateful to Kean? Not in a million years.

[Driftpeasant]

There are 21 games left to play among the relegation stragglers. The magic number of points for survival is 58. There are 129,140,163 possible combinations of results in those 21 games.

For Rovers to go down, they must lose their next two games, and everyone below them must, essentially, win out. Unfortunately Rovers can't help things along with 6 pointers (or, I suppose in a positive light, conversely, they cannot hurt themselves too much with 6 pointers).

2 points for Rovers in the next 2 games see them safe.

A draw or a loss by 2 of these 3, Peterborough, Wolves, and Barnsley, at any point, sees Rovers safe. Losses for the next two games by 2 of the following see Rovers safe: Burnley, Blackpool, Sheffield Wednesday, or Huddersfield. Millwall have a game in hand, and therefore would need to lose 3 times.

Highest Rovers can finish: 11th

Lowest Rovers can finish: 23rd

Blackburn are now 100/1 against going down on Bet365.

What you should be rooting for:

Ipswich to beat Burnley

Blackburn to get at least 2 points from the next 2 games.

Burnley to draw Wolves and lose to Ipswich (honestly, losses would be more emotionally satisfying, but I think the draw helps us more in the grand scheme of things).

Blackpool to lose to Derby and Bolton

Sheffield Wednesday to draw Peterborough, and lose to Middlesborough

Millwall to lose to Notts Forest, Crystal Palace, and Derby

Huddersfield to lose to Bristol City, and draw Barnsley

Peterborough to draw Sheffield Wednesday, and lose to Crystal Palace

Wolve to draw with Burnley, and lose to Brighton

Barnsley to lose to Hull, and draw with Huddersfield.

I'm trying to work out all the scenarios now, but that's getting rather painful, so I'll just post what I've got thus fr.

[rovers11]

There are 21 games left to play among the relegation stragglers. The magic number of points for survival is 58. There are 129,140,163 possible combinations of results in those 21 games.

For Rovers to go down, they must lose their next two games, and everyone below them must, essentially, win out. Unfortunately Rovers can't help things along with 6 pointers (or, I suppose in a positive light, conversely, they cannot hurt themselves too much with 6 pointers).

2 points for Rovers in the next 2 games see them safe.

A draw or a loss by 2 of these 3, Peterborough, Wolves, and Barnsley, at any point, sees Rovers safe. Losses for the next two games by 2 of the following see Rovers safe: Burnley, Blackpool, Sheffield Wednesday, or Huddersfield. Millwall have a game in hand, and therefore would need to lose 3 times.

Highest Rovers can finish: 11th

Lowest Rovers can finish: 23rd

Blackburn are now 100/1 against going down on Bet365.

What you should be rooting for:

Ipswich to beat Burnley

Blackburn to get at least 2 points from the next 2 games.

Burnley to draw Wolves and lose to Ipswich (honestly, losses would be more emotionally satisfying, but I think the draw helps us more in the grand scheme of things).

Blackpool to lose to Derby and Bolton

Sheffield Wednesday to draw Peterborough, and lose to Middlesborough

Millwall to lose to Notts Forest, Crystal Palace, and Derby

Huddersfield to lose to Bristol City, and draw Barnsley

Peterborough to draw Sheffield Wednesday, and lose to Crystal Palace

Wolve to draw with Burnley, and lose to Brighton

Barnsley to lose to Hull, and draw with Huddersfield.

I'm trying to work out all the scenarios now, but that's getting rather painful, so I'll just post what I've got thus fr.

Crikey, I think you need a lie down Should be fine now, I'm certainly feeling more confident about it.

[Andy]

I only said we should be grateful for the great start to the season he gave us. It's not difficult to understand.

Rovers fans have literally nothing to be grateful to Kean for.

If it wasn't for that lying, manipulative, incompetent snake we'd still be in the Premier League and wouldn't be suffering from the huge amount he did to the playing squad and club infrastructure.

Any one of us on this board would probably have done just as well as Kean in the first few games of the season, such was the respect the players were being given by the opposition, never mind the stupid amount of good luck we received during that period.

[roversfan99]

Aye and ignores the points that took us down.

Thats irrelevant to the point he is making, as he is not saying we needed Kean to stay, or Kean did a good job overall, which everyone knows is far from the truth. He is simply stating that, in isolation, the points Kean accumulated this season have been key in keeping us in this division.

Grateful to whom though? Everyone could see we were winning those games with luck, performances were awful and results would have tailed off. So grateful to the footballing gods yes, but grateful to Kean? Not in a million years.

To be honest, the first 7 performances were no worse than those that have followed. I remember an excellent half at Leeds which saw Formica, Gomes, Rhodes and Pedersen show too much quality and resulted in some lovely attacking football. The performances were poor overall, as has been the case throughout the season, but we were simply attacking teams, with the Bristol City game sticking out in particular. Gomes was our key player and Rochina was his deputy and that was working well.

However that is irrelevant, and not what Jim seems to be staying. It doesn't matter how the points were gained, its the fact that they were that was important. The points accumulated in the first 7 games were integral in us not being in the drop zone. There has been at no point any praise of the overall job that Kean did, or any assumption that Kean would have succeeded had he stayed in charge. We know that he wasn't a good manager, he was a terrible manager, but no one has argued otherwise.

Was Kean a competent manager? No.

Did Kean accumulate enough points to give us a huge head start in what has proved to be a relegation fight? Yes.

[Andy]

Was it Kean's fault why we were in this division to start with? Yes.

Should he have started this season as manager? No.

Could a proper manager have had a better start than Kean, accumulated more points and then fail to walk away, preventing the whole managerial situation we got into? Almost certainly (imo).