[Archived] Sporting Intelligence - Venky's "the worst owners in English football"

[philipl]

im guessing that wat happened cos its very odd for all four members to come over. the brothers have been coming to games but not mr or mrs d. Maybe we will found out when club is sold if it is.

Chaddy.

This is not a go at you but you quite rightly say you are guessing about their motives for the Charlton visit.

All I can add is that their time in the UK was short and cloaked in the utmost secrecy which has not been penetrated as yet.

It makes the raja Rolls Royce appearance at Ewood even more bizarre when their security people must surely have advised otherwise.

By way of contrast, there are quite a few posters on this site who have good reasons to know things about the Venky's tenure which would get this entire site closed in less than ten minutes if it were posted on here. There are certainly posters who know more than I do.

[den]

Have you never seen any match where a full back finds themselves in space on the half way line, runs 30 yards and takes a wildshot that sails wildly over the target? Or the keeper or centre back takes a free kick and it heads towards the opposition goal?

Anyone in a team could have a shot. That is a fact. Therefore, to guarantee this stupid idea that the Spurs game was a fix would take everyone to be in on it. Not 2 or 3 players as philipl is suggesting, or even half a dozen players that you are.

Regardless of the clear issues around betting scams and the like, to say that the match vs Spurs was anything other than Rovers being utter @#/?, is where the nonsense comes in, The tactic may have been to play within themselves, but this doesn't equate to deliberately for nefarious reasons not taking a shot.

Correctomundo Dr.

[DE.]

Is it? How many chances did our full backs have to get beyond the half way line during the Spurs match? Or the second half of the Sunderland game?

If midfield/attack keeps giving the ball away then the defenders aren't going to be able to get far enough up the pitch at any point to try a shot. Unless you believe the full backs are going to randomly run past the left/right wingers and leave their area completely exposed?

[thenodrog]

My position on Ali Syed was consistently.

Put the £300m into Rovers in a way it couldn't be removed and you can have the club.

Just who would have been lunatic enough to have done that ffs?

[yoda]

Just who would have been lunatic enough to have done that ffs?

that is going to be a short reply long in coming

[Plastics]

Is it? How many chances did our full backs have to get beyond the half way line during the Spurs match? Or the second half of the Sunderland game?

If midfield/attack keeps giving the ball away then the defenders aren't going to be able to get far enough up the pitch at any point to try a shot. Unless you believe the full backs are going to randomly run past the left/right wingers and leave their area completely exposed?

With the amount of money riding on it all it takes is one frustrated effort from a player who doesn't know and you've got gangsters looking for you for not winning him his bet. I'm not saying match fixing doesn't happen here as I don't know, but it would take more than 2-3 players in the games we are talking about.

[tomphil]

With the amount of money riding on it all it takes is one frustrated effort from a player who doesn't know and you've got gangsters looking for you for not winning him his bet. I'm not saying match fixing doesn't happen here as I don't know, but it would take more than 2-3 players in the games we are talking about.

It could possibly be done by a manager ( under orders from somewhere) who knows his team are not good enough, fit enough or set up correctly to get a result against a good team barring a fluke. He puts very little into the team in the run up to the game in terms of info, tactics etc and instucts his coaches to give the team an easy time during the week and practise a containg type system for the match. He then selects an unattacking team and just tells them to play deep and try and contain the opposition for the whole game and don't worry if we go behind just keep the shape and go for damage limitation. He then uses no subs or just negative ones and stands on the touchline like a dufus for the whole game whilst the team struggles. Of course it would be difficult to predict the exact score but if someone in the know is heavily spread betting it would be a nailed on defeat more than likely. Who would really know ? Only the people at the top would need be in on it, hell they could even be owners or associates betting AGAINST their own team.Not every game of course. Long winded but possible !

[Plastics]

It could possibly be done by a manager ( under orders from somewhere) who knows his team are not good enough, fit enough or set up correctly to get a result against a good team barring a fluke. He puts very little into the team in the run up to the game in terms of info, tactics etc and instucts his coaches to give the team an easy time during the week and practise a containg type system for the match. He then selects an unattacking team and just tells them to play deep and try and contain the opposition for the whole game and don't worry if we go behind just keep the shape and go for damage limitation. He then uses no subs or just negative ones and stands on the touchline like a dufus for the whole game whilst the team struggles. Of course it would be difficult to predict the exact score but if someone in the know is heavily spread betting it would be a nailed on defeat more than likely. Who would really know ? Only the people at the top would need be in on it, hell they could even be owners or associates betting AGAINST their own team.Not every game of course. Long winded but possible !

Takes one player to get frustrated and have a shot from 35 yards, or an opposing defender to screw up and gift an opportunity. With the amount of money riding on it and the people you are dealing with you'd need a good few players to say no shot on target ALL game.

[tomphil]

Takes one player to get frustrated and have a shot from 35 yards, or an opposing defender to screw up and gift an opportunity. With the amount of money riding on it and the people you are dealing with you'd need a good few players to say no shot on target ALL game.

Fair point but like i said they could just be betting on one team to win and not anything complicated and if it's 'in house' so to speak they'd know how poor their own team was and the chance of defeat is highly likely. Also they wouldn't have to worry about gangsters if they were doing just between themselves. Anything is possible where huge money is involved.

[DE.]

You're missing my point, plastics. You need to forget the zero shots thing, betting markets to my knowledge don't operate "<team> has zero shots" as a standard market. it would need to be created especially, and a crime ring obviously won't create special markets as it makes them more obvious.

I do think that if the entire midfield/attack was bought off then the chances of having a shot on goal would be virtually none. No matter what you say about full backs or defenders, they can't get up the pitch to get a shot on goal if they have literally no help from their midfielders or attackers. They wouldn't be able to get out of their own defensive area let alone that high up the pitch because midfield would be giving it away all the time and leave the team camped in their own half the whole match.

My point is more that - using our match Vs Spurs as an example - if you wanted to bet on either a Spurs win or a Spurs clean sheet (or both) then IMO it's fairly easily achievable by only compromising the manager. The team may manage a couple of attempts on goal but barring some very bad luck they probably won't go in as the manager will have set the team up in a way that restricts them from mustering any decent chances. It's of course much easier to achieve this with poor players than good players, which is why Man Utd would be an unlikely target for this kind of scam. Rovers on the other hand, with a rookie manager and all good senior players sold...

[Tom]

I think the spurs match was just incompetence on keans part but I also think he felt so safe in his job he didn't care about relegation

I would never even hint or entertain the idea that the players could be complicit in a con.

[DE.]

I do as well Tom, but it's a good example to use, isn't it?

[Tom]

Yep it was beyond a joke that match that's for sure

The Rovers united game the season before was a dodgy one, United need a point to win the league, we are leading up till about 10 minutes to go when the ref gives them a kind penalty and then the last ten minutes is literally spent with united passing the ball unopposed across their back four

[darrenrover]

Could someone explain the capitulation at Norwich, Sunderland, The performances at home to Bolton, WBA and Stoke, the away games at Spurs, Swansea and Cardiff in the cup? to name but a few.

We were fighting (were we?) relegation for gods sake. Surely it can't all have been down to Coco's mismanagement and lack of tactical accumen.

For me too many instances to be just a coincidence. I'm not normally one to think malpractice but in the search for some feasible logical explanation, I find it difficult to think otherwise.

Have I lost the plot?

In any event, hopefully such thoughts are now consigned to the history books!

[DE.]

I don't think at any point any of the players were compromised.

Kean on the other hand? I genuinely wouldn't put it past him.

[SouthAussieRover]

Could someone explain the capitulation at Norwich, Sunderland, The performances at home to Bolton, WBA and Stoke, the away games at Spurs, Swansea and Cardiff in the cup? to name but a few.

We were fighting (were we?) relegation for gods sake. Surely it can't all have been down to Coco's mismanagement and lack of tactical accumen.

For me too many instances to be just a coincidence. I'm not normally one to think malpractice but in the search for some feasible logical explanation, I find it difficult to think otherwise.

Have I lost the plot?

In any event, hopefully such thoughts are now consigned to the history books!

We had a @#/? manager,@#/? owners and @#/? off players... Hence relegation.

[Plastics]

You're missing my point, plastics. You need to forget the zero shots thing, betting markets to my knowledge don't operate "<team> has zero shots" as a standard market. it would need to be created especially, and a crime ring obviously won't create special markets as it makes them more obvious.

I do think that if the entire midfield/attack was bought off then the chances of having a shot on goal would be virtually none. No matter what you say about full backs or defenders, they can't get up the pitch to get a shot on goal if they have literally no help from their midfielders or attackers. They wouldn't be able to get out of their own defensive area let alone that high up the pitch because midfield would be giving it away all the time and leave the team camped in their own half the whole match.

My point is more that - using our match Vs Spurs as an example - if you wanted to bet on either a Spurs win or a Spurs clean sheet (or both) then IMO it's fairly easily achievable by only compromising the manager. The team may manage a couple of attempts on goal but barring some very bad luck they probably won't go in as the manager will have set the team up in a way that restricts them from mustering any decent chances. It's of course much easier to achieve this with poor players than good players, which is why Man Utd would be an unlikely target for this kind of scam. Rovers on the other hand, with a rookie manager and all good senior players sold...

Fair enough, my mistake. Thought you were saying the bet was to be on no shots. You can have a bet on a win with only a few players involved I am sure, i was talking purely of the no shots on target, as you realised. Sorry for the confusion.

[K-Hod]

Could someone explain the capitulation at Norwich, Sunderland, The performances at home to Bolton, WBA and Stoke, the away games at Spurs, Swansea and Cardiff in the cup? to name but a few.

We were fighting (were we?) relegation for gods sake. Surely it can't all have been down to Coco's mismanagement and lack of tactical accumen.

For me too many instances to be just a coincidence. I'm not normally one to think malpractice but in the search for some feasible logical explanation, I find it difficult to think otherwise.

Have I lost the plot?

In any event, hopefully such thoughts are now consigned to the history books!

To be fair,the Norwich one in particular we were robbed by that penalty decision. N'Zonzi never handballed that in a million years!!

[Plastics]

And that deflection would have taken years to practice to perfection.

[DE.]

Fair enough, my mistake. Thought you were saying the bet was to be on no shots. You can have a bet on a win with only a few players involved I am sure, i was talking purely of the no shots on target, as you realised. Sorry for the confusion.

I do think that with the midfield & attack of a team bribed/compromised you could pretty much guarantee no shots on goal, but I don't see much point discussing it as that wouldn't be what the bet was for anyway. Hypothetically speaking, it would almost certainly be for a Spurs win or a Spurs win with a clean sheet.

[Guest Norbert]

Surely you'd have to bung a stupid amount of money for it to work since Premier League players are rarely on less than £20,000 p/w. Unless gambling addiction is more rampant than we expect, and players have run up debts with shady characters. To pay off say, a manager and 5 players would mean you'd have to bet the sort of money that would buy you a Man City player.

[perthblue02]

Yep it was beyond a joke that match that's for sure

The Rovers united game the season before was a dodgy one, United need a point to win the league, we are leading up till about 10 minutes to go when the ref gives them a kind penalty and then the last ten minutes is literally spent with united passing the ball unopposed across their back four

Funnily enough the referee in that game is mentioned in this http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football/football-sport/city-fans-heres-the-evidence-of-the-united-referee-conspiracy/ ,

[darrenrover]

Hypothetically speaking of course, nobody would have to be bunged anything if you owned the club.

The information and influence from such a scenario is another matter however.

[47er]

Surely you'd have to bung a stupid amount of money for it to work since Premier League players are rarely on less than £20,000 p/w. Unless gambling addiction is more rampant than we expect, and players have run up debts with shady characters. To pay off say, a manager and 5 players would mean you'd have to bet the sort of money that would buy you a Man City player.

I wonder why anyone earning the sort of money Premier League players are on could be even tempted to take a bribe. What do they want that they couldn't otherwise afford?

[Plastics]

I wonder why anyone earning the sort of money Premier League players are on could be even tempted to take a bribe. What do they want that they couldn't otherwise afford?

Maybe pay off existing gambling debts?