[Archived] Martin Olson

[den]

Do you genuinely believe that Kean would have kept us up if we kept Samba, Phil Jones and our other "best players".

Even though he almost relegated us with the very same players.....with a massive headstart over Blackpool etc.

Kean/Venky's relegated us because even if we bought more quality players to add to Samba etc, we still would have gone down.

Bunkum.

When Kean took us over we weren't relegated, we were a mid table successful football club with a squad of excellent, PL pro's. We were relegated because the playing staff was reduced to a handful of lower league journeymen.

[AndyC]

We've sold them as long as I've been watching us. That's why we spent so many years in the old second and third divisions. It's also the reason why we're in this league.

Some of you guys will never learn.

The difference being that we usually sold 1 per year.

With venkys, we've sold the entire first team.

[den]

The difference being that we usually sold 1 per year.

With venkys, we've sold the entire first team.

I agree mate. That's why we've gone down.

[DE.]

Bunkum.

When Kean took us over we weren't relegated, we were a mid table successful football club with a squad of excellent, PL pro's. We were relegated because the playing staff was reduced to a handful of lower league journeymen.

Have you forgotten Kean's first six months in charge? The man nearly got us relegated with these excellent PL Pros. We stayed up on the last day. Over the course of a season we would have gone down.

Not saying selling players didn't contribute btw, but we would have gone down with Kean regardless, i'm sure of that. The man is quite simply a terrible manager and makes those in his team as bad as he is.

[AndyC]

The money we may or may not receive for him is irrelevant; we'd be losing a Premier League footballer and the type of player we need if we are to have any chance of promotion because you can bet that his replacement will be cheap and won't be anywhere near as good.

Completely agree jim.

Olsen is a fantastic player who hasn't had any direction for 2 years. Under the right manager, he's easily worth 7 mill.

Absolutely gutted he's going.

Transfer surplus of 28million now.

Thanks venkys, you asset stripping keaners

[The Rover of Finland]

Samba, Jones and many others we have sold are way better players than Olsson. But we are in the Championship and here Olsson is worth for keeping if no cover is available. I doubt there is in January.

[den]

Have you forgotten Kean's first six months in charge? The man nearly got us relegated with these excellent PL Pros. We stayed up on the last day. Over the course of a season we would have gone down.

Not saying selling players didn't contribute btw, but we would have gone down with Kean regardless, i'm sure of that. The man is quite simply a terrible manager and makes those in his team as bad as he is.

From the day Kean arrived, he started causing player unrest. How can I forget that guy? He was the worst manager we've ever had by a long way.

This discussion with Salgado is ongoing. His view is that a managers tactics outweigh the quality of player. That, to me is absolute nonsense. A manager does have influence with his tactics, but by a long way, the main way any manager improves a club is by bringing in better players.

The best clubs have the best players. That's always been the case and always will be. Do you believe the difference between Man Utd and let's say Reading is tactical? Tactics are great and important, but unless you have the players who can carry out those tactics, you're going nowhere. The game is 90% about players.

I really can't believe that anyone seriously thinks otherwise.

[DE.]

From the day Kean arrived, he started causing player unrest. How can I forget that guy? He was the worst manager we've ever had by a long way.

This discussion with Salgado is ongoing. His view is that a managers tactics outweigh the quality of player. That, to me is absolute nonsense. A manager does have influence with his tactics, but by a long way, the main way any manager improves a club is by bringing in better players.

The best clubs have the best players. That's always been the case and always will be. Do you believe the difference between Man Utd and let's say Reading is tactical? Tactics are great and important, but unless you have the players who can carry out those tactics, you're going nowhere. The game is 90% about players.

I really can't believe that anyone seriously thinks otherwise.

Surely if you have a group of ten clubs all of similar quality (no point comparing Reading and Utd, is there?) the manager is going to be a big part of where the club finishes within that group? Our squad was on par with ten or so others when Kean took over and about four clubs in his second season.

He would have gotten us relegated in the first season if he'd been there the whole time, I have no doubt about that.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Bunkum.

When Kean took us over we weren't relegated, we were a mid table successful football club with a squad of excellent, PL pro's. We were relegated because the playing staff was reduced to a handful of lower league journeymen.

From the day Kean arrived, he started causing player unrest. How can I forget that guy? He was the worst manager we've ever had by a long way.

This discussion with Salgado is ongoing. His view is that a managers tactics outweigh the quality of player. That, to me is absolute nonsense. A manager does have influence with his tactics, but by a long way, the main way any manager improves a club is by bringing in better players.

The best clubs have the best players. That's always been the case and always will be. Do you believe the difference between Man Utd and let's say Reading is tactical? Tactics are great and important, but unless you have the players who can carry out those tactics, you're going nowhere. The game is 90% about players.

I really can't believe that anyone seriously thinks otherwise.

But what if we didn't beat Wolves and went down? What would your explanation have been? Why did we keep 3 clean sheets in 21 games with Samba and Phil Jones behind Nzonzi and Jermaine Jones?

Robinson - Salgado - Samba - Nelsen - Givet - Olsson - Diouf - Emerton - Dunn - Nzonzi - Pedersen - Olsson - Roberts - Kalinic - Di Santo were the players who came 10th under Sam....can't remember who else we had.

ROBINSON - SALGADO - SAMBA - Dann - GIVET - OLSSON - Hoilett - DUNN - Formica - NZONZI - PEDERSEN - Yakubu were in the relegation zone throughout the vast majority of the first half of last season under Kean.....winning 3 games until New Year and keeping 0 clean sheets.

Any neutral would tell you Kean's squad was stronger......although Nelsen vs Dann is no contest, Hoilett and Yakubu makes up for it.......add Rochina and Vukcevic as well.....unless playing Goodwillie was what cost us......we lost Emerton and Diouf, two mostly solid players.....but players like Rochina and Vukcevic should have been used a lot better.

You say I think "managers tactics outweigh the quality of player.".....not necessarily and in any given situation......but definitely in ours......Kean made all of our players look worse.......Jewell made all of Ipswich's look worse.....etc etc etc.

You can't compare Reading and United....no one would disagree with you there.....but sometimes teams like Reading beat teams like Utd because they get their tactics spot on.

I don't believe we had the 19th best squad in the league last season......nor did I believe Norwich had the 11th.

[jim mk2]

This discussion with Salgado is ongoing. His view is that a managers tactics outweigh the quality of player. That, to me is absolute nonsense. A manager does have influence with his tactics, but by a long way, the main way any manager improves a club is by bringing in better players.

T

Den, you keep banging on about this but you're only half right. Yes we've lost some good players but this isn't a bad Rovers squad and a decent manager would have them far higher than they are at present.

[den]

Den, you keep banging on about this but you're only half right. Yes we've lost some good players but this isn't a bad Rovers squad and a decent manager would have them far higher than they are at present.

That's where we differ Jim, because I think the squad Kean left us is very poor. Good on paper maybe, poor in reality.

Last point [hopefully]. Why we're discussing Kean I don't know. Everyone knows a poor manager can decimate a good squad by alienating the players or by selling them and replacing them with worse. Kean managed to do both.

From where we are now though, again in my opinion, the only way any manager can improve us enough to get us promoted is by bringing in better players than we currently have. No manager can make enough improvement in this squad, simply by tactical means. He might be able to make some improvement, but how much we don't know. Somehow Appleton has to wheel and deal, but from where we are now - and with the sky money running out, he hasn't got a lot to work with. King and Best might make a difference - but there again we're saying it's down to the quality of player.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Right, but still we're using Best tactically to get the best out of Rhodes.

If we played Nunes or Vukcevic or Kazim on the wing and told them to whip in crosses, it's down to the quality of player as they need to be able to do that but it is still about tactics.

We haven't been doing that enough so we're stifling Rhodes' ability.......we're not providing enough options to pass to so are stifling the likes of Murphy's ability.

You have to play to your players' strengths.....you can't just let them play how they like, they need to have a game-plan and an understanding with their teammates......which we have mostly lacked for the past two years.

The wrong tactics can make players under-perform and therefore look worse than they are.........if we concentrate a lot on players finding space to receive the ball then, for example, Lowe will find our players a lot more and some people will say that he's improved on his passing.....but it will just be because of the system.

Players and tactics are both vitally important but why I feel compelled to have this debate with you is because you don't seem to recognise the fact that tactics can inhibit performances.

Fitness and lack of confidence can....so can organisation for one thing......that's why we started to concede a lot more goals under Kean than before.....even with Samba and Phil Jones in the heart of defence.

Dann, Goodwillie, Formica, Petrovic......just some examples of players who had apparently performed better at previous clubs than here.....I witnessed the first two with my own eyes....it's not a coincidence so many suddenly looked worse.....or in the case of players like Nzonzi, their progress stifled.

[EgyptianPete]

Right, but still we're using Best tactically to get the best out of Rhodes.

If we played Nunes or Vukcevic or Kazim on the wing and told them to whip in crosses, it's down to the quality of player as they need to be able to do that but it is still about tactics.

We haven't been doing that enough so we're stifling Rhodes' ability.......we're not providing enough options to pass to so are stifling the likes of Murphy's ability.

You have to play to your players' strengths.....you can't just let them play how they like, they need to have a game-plan and an understanding with their teammates......which we have mostly lacked for the past two years.

The wrong tactics can make players under-perform and therefore look worse than they are.........if we concentrate a lot on players finding space to receive the ball then, for example, Lowe will find our players a lot more and some people will say that he's improved on his passing.....but it will just be because of the system.

Players and tactics are both vitally important but why I feel compelled to have this debate with you is because you don't seem to recognise the fact that tactics can inhibit performances.

Fitness and lack of confidence can....so can organisation for one thing......that's why we started to concede a lot more goals under Kean than before.....even with Samba and Phil Jones in the heart of defence.

Dann, Goodwillie, Formica, Petrovic......just some examples of players who had apparently performed better at previous clubs than here.....I witnessed the first two with my own eyes....it's not a coincidence so many suddenly looked worse.....or in the case of players like Nzonzi, their progress stifled.

Whoa chaps, didn't Olson play last night, um yes he did, so he is still a Blackburn player, this thread is about the potential loss of Olson not Kean and his past crap.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

This thread was just 3 pages long anyway and we've been discussing Olsson's impending transfer since 31 March on the the 'Olsson wants out' thread in Transfer Talk.

Too much moderation stifles discussion......debates should be encouraged as long as off-topic ones don't clog up popular threads imo.

[john.leigh]

Perspective.

Olsson is an ordinary Championship level defender. I hope he stays, but if he leaves then we'll get by.

Henley has come in and done a solid job for us, but now he's injured we've quite easily found what seems to be adequate cover. We can do the same for Olsson.

[cesus]

Perspective.

Olsson is an ordinary Championship level defender. I hope he stays, but if he leaves then we'll get by.

Henley has come in and done a solid job for us, but now he's injured we've quite easily found what seems to be adequate cover. We can do the same for Olsson.

This is my view too, can be very entertaining getting forwards but all too often allows his defensive flaws to over shadowing his attacking threat. Quite often allows his man to get away from him (Friday night) and lets way too many crosses get into the box.

[Silencio]

He's at least a mid-table premier league left winger who can fill in at full back. There were plenty on here saying get rid of nzonzi over the summer and he's been stoke's player of the season. Kean unsettled all the good players and we are now where we are...

[A cup of beans]

He's at least a mid-table premier league left winger who can fill in at full back. There were plenty on here saying get rid of nzonzi over the summer and he's been stoke's player of the season. Kean unsettled all the good players and we are now where we are...

Stoke's player of the season is a bit much.

Martin is a left winger, and a poor left back. As we only ever utilise him at Left back (Wrongly) I wouldnt be against selling him.

[den]

Players and tactics are both vitally important but why I feel compelled to have this debate with you is because you don't seem to recognise the fact that tactics can inhibit performances.

I've not been back here until just now, but from this comment, you aren't following what I'm saying. Of course managers can destroy a team and I've just said that in the post immediately above your last one. I've been watching Kean destroy this club for the last 18 months or so. How can anyone not see that? For the umpteenth time, I'm talking about how a manager improves a team. He can improve them slightly with good tactics and coaching, He can improve them a million times by bringing in top players.

You think Dann, Formica, Goodwillie and Petrovic were good players being dragged down because of a managers tactics? I don't, they are simply not good enough, but it does explain why you're convinced that these are really good players being dragged down by the manager. I guess you also believe that a coach can improve any weakness in a player.

How you can believe that a squad of players that has been outplayed in what - 90% of league games this season - is a good squad, beats me.

[Silencio]

Stoke's player of the season is a bit much.

Martin is a left winger, and a poor left back. As we only ever utilise him at Left back (Wrongly) I wouldnt be against selling him.

From what i hear the Stoke fans say he is a notch aboce what they have in midfield. WeD be far better off signing a left back, moving Martin to the wing and holding off bids until the summer at least. Once again, when have rovers ever sold a good player and bought one better or as good? Hardly ever...

[den]

From what i hear the Stoke fans say he is a notch aboce what they have in midfield. WeD be far better off signing a left back, moving Martin to the wing and holding off bids until the summer at least. Once again, when have rovers ever sold a good player and bought one better or as good? Hardly ever...

Some of our fans think it's a good idea................

[Salgado Is A Hero]

I've not been back here until just now, but from this comment, you aren't following what I'm saying. Of course managers can destroy a team and I've just said that in the post immediately above your last one. I've been watching Kean destroy this club for the last 18 months or so. How can anyone not see that? For the umpteenth time, I'm talking about how a manager improves a team. He can improve them slightly with good tactics and coaching, He can improve them a million times by bringing in top players.

You think Dann, Formica, Goodwillie and Petrovic were good players being dragged down because of a managers tactics? I don't, they are simply not good enough, but it does explain why you're convinced that these are really good players being dragged down by the manager. I guess you also believe that a coach can improve any weakness in a player.

How you can believe that a squad of players that has been outplayed in what - 90% of league games this season - is a good squad, beats me.

The thing is though, I don't know if it is improving a team "slightly".....some managers do serious damage to how a team performs......eg Kean here or Jewell at Ipswich.....Ipswich are the team that has been in this division the longest for a reason.....they're the quintessential mid-table Championship club yet looked like one of the worst sides in the division by all accounts.

At times under McCarthy they've been one of the form teams in the division.....that wasn't because of Bradley Orr.......if a manager is doing ok with a team, then yea a new manager that isn't Ferguson or Mourinho etc won't improve them by too much......but there can be a massive difference.....if I thought you recognised that, we probably would have discussed this topic much less in recent times.....but I've seen you say things like "tactics don't inhibit players" when they clearly do.

You wouldn't have watched Goodwillie or Formica and Petrovic before but did you not see Dann at Birmingham? I only saw him a few times but him and Roger Johnson were nothing like what they've been since.....coaches can't improve players weaknesses short-term but their tactics are designed to cover up a player's weaknesses.

Spurs would have been outplayed all the time when they sacked their manager after 8 games.....under Juande Ramos or Jacques Santini or whoever it was......they had a very good squad back then.

We weren't outplayed under Sam too often but then Kean took over and we were outplayed all the time....apart from against teams who would go on to sack their managers.....it happens......we have a good squad for this league.....unbalanced but good.....a good manager would cover up our shortcomings and concentrate on getting the ball to our quality players.

[roversfan99]

We may have a few talented players but they do tend to do the same jobs. The imbalance is because we don't have enough quality players across the team.

Look at our defence, there are no experienced leaders, we lack concentration, experience and know-how.

Our central midfield has one 35 year old who in my opinion has improved and is a good playmaker but we have NO other central midfielders worthy of the name. We have one central midfielder of any use and we cannot use him to anything like his true ability because of a lack of quality to cover his shortcomings.

Looking at the 3 in behind the striker and they all want to play centrally. Rochina wants to be a number 10. So does Vukcevic yet he is forced out wide. Same with Formica. King and Kazim are strikers forced out wide.

Then we can't play to the strengths of our most valuable player in Rhodes as we have to compensate for our lightweight midfield, meaning that Rhodes spends the game isolated.

Also, whilst I agree that a manager does have an impact, regarding the players you mention, Goodwillie is very slow and sluggish, and seems to lack motivation as well as technique, that wasn't Keans fault.(Although he bought him) Kean didn't tell Dann to constantly duck out of the way like he did v Wolves.

Part of say Allardyce's strength was signing players that fit the structure he had in place, and getting the maximum out of what he had.

Looking at our squad, we are a whole defence of players, a couple of central midfielders and a winger or two short of what I'd say is a good squad. Even a very good manager would need 2-4 additions. A big problem is the lack of experience.

[den]

Salgado mate, We've done this to death and we're just not going to agree, so we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'll just make a remark or two and I'll leave it for the time being, particularly on this thread. Feel free to reply again, but I probably wont.

So, you say "but I've seen you say things like "tactics don't inhibit players" when they clearly do." - I've never said anything of the sort. If you can find that, then link it here. Kean and other really poor managers can, and did destroy sides. How could I or anyone else argue with that? I've said they can. Jim Iley did it years ago. More recently Kidd and Ince did it.

Neither did Kean stick with the players that Sam had. From almost the time he took over, he started to marginalise experienced pro's and replace them with many of the players that can't get a game even now.

You also seem to think that all we need now, is for a manager to come in, pick the right team, use the right tactics and we'll do a whole lot better. I don't think many rovers fans believe that for one second.

As for the continual reference to McCarthy and how he's improved Wolves, well Ipswich's squad isn't our squad. Maybe Ipswich's squad hasn't been ripped apart and replaced with third rate portugese lads who wont ever be seen again once they leave. Maybe Ipswich haven't sold their entire first team squad? Maybe Ipswich had a balanced underperforming squad which just needed to be given a new lease of life? Who knows? I don't know enough about Ipswich's squad and neither I suspect do you. What McCarthy is doing at Ipswich has no relvance to our situation at Ewood. I mean, how many managers now have tried to get a performance out of our lot? 5 is it? Bowyer comes nearest to succeeding, certainly with his results, but in truth from what I've seen, no-one has got anywhere near to putting a side together that even has the capability of taking a reasonable amount of posession from a game - never mind being better than our opponents.

As for Olssen, hope he stays and is used in the right way by Appleton.

Tarra.

[jim mk2]

As for the continual reference to McCarthy and how he's improved Wolves, well Ipswich's squad isn't our squad. Maybe Ipswich's squad hasn't been ripped apart and replaced with third rate portugese lads who wont ever be seen again once they leave. Maybe Ipswich haven't sold their entire first team squad? Maybe Ipswich had a balanced underperforming squad which just needed to be given a new lease of life? Who knows?

Who knows Den but what I do know is that when I went to Portman Road for our first match of the season back In August Ipswich looked absolutely awful and certain for relegation (we should have won of course but allowed Ipswich to equalise late on). I think they were rock bottom under Jewell 3 months ago but since he was sacked McCarthy has come in and with a few tweaks and a couple of loan signings he has turned them round. He's a good example of a good manager making a difference with a poor squad and I still maintain that if he had been given the chance to work with our under-performing squad and given the job instead of Berg we would much higher up the league now.