[Archived] Cameron's thoughts on Europe

[dave birch]

What do you guys feel about a referendum on staying in Europe.

Dare you extracate yourselves, or do you have to put up with it?

I've got to admit that had I had a choice in the beginning I would have said no, but after so many years, it might be a bit difficult to turn things around.

[Torgeir]

You mean the European Union? Some of us aren't a part of it but we're still Europeans

[adopted scouser]

30 million immigrants and we're out of pocket by some 96 Billion, and they are forcing through austerity cuts ?

[jim mk2]

We live today in an ever increasingly interconnected and interdependent world. A retreat inwards, however nostalgic it seems, just will not wash.

Cameron's speech is only an attempt to keep 30 dissident Tory MPs quiet and shows that he values his own political skin and internal party politics far higher than the country's interest.

[thenodrog]

I voted in the last refendum on Europe. I was studying Bus Studies at the time and we debated this to the nth degree for weeks in our various lectures leading up to the referendum. Yet when the refendum came I still felt underqualified and underinformed enough to decide. Without being conceited or disparaging how the man in the street with his red top newspaper, flask and sandwiches or the housewife spending her day between the school run, the supermarket and the hairdressers were expected to contribute I do not know.

We elect representatives to research all angles and make these decisions and that should be the way forward. What @#/? it all up is Politics, the 'Party line' and the party Whip system. However can we trust that lot to decide? Maybe the CBI, the finance sector, TUC and local govt etc should be consulted too as the way forward is about prospering in the next 50 years and not simply about winning the General Election in 2015 which effectively is what most of the gallant 650 are bothered about and sadly will inevitably influence their judgement most!

[Paul]

I shall have to lay down for a while. Absolutely agree with Gordon!!

[den]

and me........

[SydneyRover]

This also marks the first time I've agreed with Gordon on something political!

[Redrose49er]

Classic diversion strategy, externalise the problems to avoid the real issues.

[dave birch]

You could well be right, RR49, but it doesn't alter the fact that Cameron will give the voters of the UK the opportunity to have a significant say on the UK's place in Europe.

I'd be really interested in AESF's view on this, even thought he/she hasn't posted in ages.

[cletus]

This country is creeking & groaning under the weight of mass immigration we cannot control. Eastern europeans have flooded the jobs market & there`s NOTHING we can do about it. We don`t have enough housing & the NHS is almost at breaking point. This cannot carry on. It`s total madness.

If the UK can claw back some powers from europe, giving us the power to halt uncontrolled immigration & the power to throw out undesirables who`ve come into the country....i`d be all for staying in europe & vote YES to Europe.

If they fail to get these powers back....then i`d be tempted to vote NO to Europe.

Hopefully it won`t come to that.

[Mike E]

You could well be right, RR49, but it doesn't alter the fact that Cameron will give the voters of the UK the opportunity to have a significant say on the UK's place in Europe.

I'd be really interested in AESF's view on this, even thought he/she hasn't posted in ages.

He promised a referendum for 2014 before the last election. And now he's shifted it back to 2017. How can we trust him?

And I'll be voting 'NO' to Europe when that day comes. We need to sort our own crap out without pandering to Brussels. The EU currently looks like the German-superstate my great-grandad helped prevent.

[SydneyRover]

The EU currently looks like the German-superstate my great-grandad helped prevent.

Yeah, opinions like this are why I think the referendum is a bad idea.

[cletus]

I have actually started to admire the germans as a nation. Hard working, industrious & a proud people.

On holiday a few years ago (during the world cup) our hotel was 10% brits 20% russian 30% Polish & 30% German (the other 10% was a right mixture!)

The russians were ignorant, the poles a bit rough, but we found the germans ok (even the greek bartender we befriended thought this too)

Just take a look at the bundesleague.....no arab princes, dodgy yanks or russian billionaires anywhere to be seen. Massive crowds, great atmospheres in grounds & clubs owned by the fans. I`ve even started watching their football on uk telly. Borussia Dortmund has been my german club since they played untied in europe donkeys years ago.

I`ve no problem with being 'european'.....but i feel the uk is seen as the soft underbelly of europe where scrotes, rogues, criminals & scroungers other countries wouldn`t tollerate can simply come in, go down the benefits/housing offices & ask "where to sign"

If Cameron can claw back our border controls from Brussels & rip up the european human rights act so we can eject the cancerous scum like Qatada....i`d vote YES to europe & even consider voting Tory for the first time in my life! *shudders*

[LeChuck]

Yeah, opinions like this are why I think the referendum is a bad idea.

Exactly. Almost everyone who votes no will be voting so from a position of no knowledge.

It's also the reason I'll be voting yes. I'll also be voting from a position of no knowledge, at least it will cancel out darrenermike's vote (well not his specifically, but any vote made for the same reasons).

I'd already made the decision to do that after reading and hearing comments elsewhere. I'm pretty sure it'll be a resounding no vote for all the wrong reasons.

[den]

It's also the reason I'll be voting yes. I'll also be voting from a position of no knowledge, at least it will cancel out darrenermike's vote (well not his specifically, but any vote made for the same reasons).

I thought this topic might have gone along the "evil EU" route, but surprisingly, so far*, it hasn't.

* I said so far. A blog I was browsing a week or two back had this answer to what has the EEC/EU ever done for us. This was the answer:-

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Simon Sweeney

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York’

[koi]

On Europe I genuinely don't know, without the full picture I'd say no but at the moment that might only be down to it being popular in the press. I'd really have to study it. However, I can't help but think it's all academic as Miliband has said that he won't give a referendum and at present I can't see a Tory majority. Long way to go though.

[thenodrog]

I voted in the last refendum on Europe. I was studying Bus Studies at the time and we debated this to the nth degree for weeks in our various lectures leading up to the referendum. Yet when the refendum came I still felt underqualified and underinformed enough to decide. Without being conceited or disparaging how the man in the street with his red top newspaper, flask and sandwiches or the housewife spending her day between the school run, the supermarket and the hairdressers were expected to contribute I do not know.

We elect representatives to research all angles and make these decisions and that should be the way forward. What @#/? it all up is Politics, the 'Party line' and the party Whip system. However can we trust that lot to decide? Maybe the CBI, the finance sector, TUC and local govt etc should be consulted too as the way forward is about prospering in the next 50 years and not simply about winning the General Election in 2015 which effectively is what most of the gallant 650 are bothered about and sadly will inevitably influence their judgement most!

Just to add that I'd have been much happier if the common market that we were joining in those days had consisted solely of Germany, Holland, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland. I never rated or trusted any mainland country north or south, east or west that had a coastline on the Mediterranean. Nothing since has changed my opinion either.

[jim mk2]

There is alot anti-EU people who are blaming the EU for things that are not EU responsibility such as migration management (Westminster) and human rights (Council of Europe. The polls are tending to pro-EU and the more facts that are presented the more this will increase - so much of the Ukip story is based on lies and half-truths. The Tories need to cleanse their party of the unintelligent, the uninformed, and the xenophobic. Otherwise they will be in the wilderness for a long time.

[Redrose49er]

I simply don't understand the whole immigration argument. Haven't the overwhelming majority of immigrants to the UK been from outside the EU? The immigrants that have come into the UK from within the EU have, in my own opinion, added a significant amount of value to the agriculture, construction and health care industries at least. Without doubt immigration has helped to plug gaps in the UK labour market and the stark truth that many people choose to ignore is that many Brits would simply be unwilling or unable to carry out such work and would rather devote their energies to living off the state. With regard to the Human Rights issue, surely this is designed to protect all of us, sadly some undesirables do take advantage but society must have a net gain from such legislation. Why anyone would want to vote to withdraw from an organisation that is crucial to our economic success on a world stage amazes me. Why not take us out of Nato at the same time? Uefa too!

As I stated earlier, all this stinks of diversion. I can't believe that the EU is the main concern of Joe Public but the Govt and BBC insist on making it so.

[Amo]

I believe we need tighter immigration laws, of course, but blaming those nasty foreigners has always been a classic divide n' conquer tactic.

[Mike E]

Perhaps I'll be a little less severe

If someone can tell me what we gain from the EU, do let me know. As far as I'm aware (I will admit I don't actually know that much), we signed up for a free-trade agreement like that of Norway and have ended up being a fully-fledged member and pay them a few billion a year for the privilege of also getting to pay for immigrant's living quarters.

Aside from the free-trade (which can be an agreement all on its own) please tell me how we benefit from being a member of the EU? I only thank God we kept the £ sterling and haven't gone the way of Greece. Yet.

[Paul]

Den's quote from Simon Sweeney gives a diverse list of the EU benefits and I'm sure with some thought it would be possible to extend this significantly. Overall as a country we ignore the real benefits we gain from Europe, accepting them as just part of life, while exaggerating the very silly rules which emerge from Brussels. The problem of course is we can't pick and chose at either a top level or at the bottom.

Two of my favourites are the light bulb ban and the directive which prevents a claim that water prevents dehydration!!

We should remain in the EU but sadly Cameron has cleverly placed us on a road which will lead to a No vote thus allowing the Conservatives to achieve their long held desire to exit. A very dangerous strategy in an increasingly small and competitive world.

Having a referendum is a mistake. People wil not vote on the whole question but be highly selective; perhaps looking to punish the government in mid-term, perhaps as an anti-migrant protest, a reaction against daft regulation, erosion of sovereignty. There are many individual reasons why I feel the result will be No when it should be a resounding Yes to stay in the EU. The decision should be made by those who understand the whole picture not a general public who focus on small, specific areas.

As for migration this is another Daily Mail headline grabber. Yes there are people who arrive from inside and outside the EU who take advantage of our benefits system. I actually know three. However people need to look beyond this. Preventing migrant workers entering the UK would probably bring about the collapse of UK horticulture and agriculture (the food side). Without a migrant workforce production and harvest would be impossible as the industry is reliant on these people. I suspect other industries would be severely impacted as well though can't argue the point with any knowledge.

The answer to benefit abuse is not to ban migrant workers or immigrants but to tighten the benefit laws to ensure only those entitled to claim receive benefit - be those people UK or foreign nationals.

[cletus]

One thing that intrigues me is the fact politicians like Miliband say europe is good for us....yet they`re scared to death of letting the people decide in a referendum.

We`ve fought wars with dictators....yet they dictate what`s good for us!

The Tories need to cleanse their party of the unintelligent, the uninformed, and the xenophobic. Otherwise they will be in the wilderness for a long time.

Will there be any left?

[Redrose49er]

Classic diversion strategy, externalise the problems to avoid the real issues.

GDP falls yet again, heading for the fabled triple dip but we are all worried about Europe